Israel and the UAE normalize relations

Irishman80

end of the road wrote: »

he hasn't.
israel being known for not abiding by an agreement, and suggesting that it would have happened in this case, is very much an argument, as we know that israel have form for not abiding by agreements.

You initially stated a counterfactual without any argument. I called you out on that. Counterfactuals require robust arguments to enable them to have any truth claim.

Now your argument for your counterfactual is that Israel "has form for not abiding by agreements"; therefore, the counterfactual is true. That's an extremely weak argument when you decide to completely overlook motives, words, actions of the Arab and Jewish people at that time.

James Brown

Israel needs to withdraw and apologise.
There are no humanitarian or security reasons for stealing even more land and bulldozing family homes.
It is against human rights, moral law to dismiss a people to suit your self entitlement.
Once more religion is used as a tool of tyranny.
Shameful.

SixtaWalthers

Though it is illegal occupation by Israel but I think people of Palestine also did mistake. I don't know why they sold their lands 30 percent high rates to these people in the beginning? For a short-term benefit, they lost their land. How insane it is it.

On the other hand, UAE and Israel deal didn't change anything in the middle east. We still have news of tensions between IDF and Gaza Strip from few days. I don't know where we need to see this 'so called peace'.

statesaver

More Arab countries will normalize relations with Israel, they are more scared of Iran.

biko

Looks like Lebanon might also normalise relations, at least it's not ruled out.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/lebanese-president-hints-at-possibility-of-peace-talks-with-israel/

Lebanese President Michel Aoun hinted at the possibility of peace talks with Israel on Saturday, two days after the United Arab Emirates and Israel agreed to normalize relations.

Speaking with France’s BFM TV, Aoun declined to categorically rule out negotiations, stating “that depends” when asked about the possibility of ending the conflict with Lebanon’s longtime enemy.

“We have problems with Israel and we have to resolve them first,” he told the French television network without specifying.

coinop

Bahrain has followed in the UAE's footsteps and agrees to normalize relations with Israel. Source.

In other news, Serbia become the latest country to designate Hezbollah a terror group. Source.

I almost feel bad for the Palestine fanboys on here. Black Lives Matter has replaced Palestine as the latest trendy cause for the Irish Left and is stealing the limelight on social media. Seems nobody cares anymore.

end of the road

coinop wrote: »

Bahrain has followed in the UAE's footsteps and agrees to normalize relations with Israel. Source.

In other news, Serbia become the latest country to designate Hezbollah a terror group. Source.

I almost feel bad for the Palestine fanboys on here. Black Lives Matter has replaced Palestine as the latest trendy cause for the Irish Left and is stealing the limelight on social media. Seems nobody cares anymore.

nothing to feel sorry about, the issues blm are highlighting are themselves very serious issues that are quite rightly being covered as well.
the irish left are capable of campaigning on multiple issues, luckily enough.
anyway your other 2 points don't really change anything in the real world.

markodaly

coinop wrote: »

Bahrain has followed in the UAE's footsteps and agrees to normalize relations with Israel. Source.

In other news, Serbia become the latest country to designate Hezbollah a terror group. Source.

I almost feel bad for the Palestine fanboys on here. Black Lives Matter has replaced Palestine as the latest trendy cause for the Irish Left and is stealing the limelight on social media. Seems nobody cares anymore.

The more countries in the ME normalises relations with Israel the better for long term peace for the region for both Jews and Palestinians alike.
Once or if Saudi normalises relations, then we are truly in new territory.

James Brown

coinop wrote: »

Bahrain has followed in the UAE's footsteps and agrees to normalize relations with Israel. Source.

In other news, Serbia become the latest country to designate Hezbollah a terror group. Source.

I almost feel bad for the Palestine fanboys on here. Black Lives Matter has replaced Palestine as the latest trendy cause for the Irish Left and is stealing the limelight on social media. Seems nobody cares anymore.

"Another Domino falls". You see this alleged 'peace' as a game and states signing up are losing? It's about money. If Israel wasn't of any use they wouldn't piss on it. That goes for Trump too. Get over yourselves.
I suppose the Nazis were only looking for peace by way of the holocaust? That's the logic and bad smell coming off this.

You've a dim view of people supporting civil and human rights. Very Israeli.

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

The more countries in the ME normalises relations with Israel the better for long term peace for the region for both Jews and Palestinians alike.
Once or if Saudi normalises relations, then we are truly in new territory.

As Israel is still occupying Palestinian territories, there is no boost for "long term peace". Secondly, both states that have "normalised" relations with Israel are monarchies, so saying that the likes of the UAE are now onboard with Israel is something that should be considered in context.

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

As Israel is still occupying Palestinian territories, there is no boost for "long term peace". Secondly, both states that have "normalised" relations with Israel are monarchies, so saying that the likes of the UAE are now onboard with Israel is something that should be considered in context.

Would you rather relations stay frosty and icy, as they have for the past 60+ years? I am sure you would, in fact, I think you may like another Arab Israeli war, where the Jews are driven back into the sea, but the fact of the matter is, it's not going to happen.

The sooner the other Arab states make peace and normalise relations with Israel the better, as then work can begin on an actual long-lasting settlement to the issue of Palestine.

Peace is always better than war, I am sure you know that!

Also, in case you have not noticed, Saudi is also a monarchy and there are no really demoracies in the Middle east, well apart from Israel!

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

Would you rather relations stay frosty and icy, as they have for the past 60+ years?

Why shouldn't they, considering the occupation has been ongoing for that time?

markodaly wrote: »

Peace is always better than war, I am sure you know that!

...not where it allows an ongoing crime to go ahead.

markodaly wrote: »

Also, in case you have not noticed, Saudi is also a monarchy and there are no really demoracies in the Middle east, well apart from Israel!

Israel is a democracy in the same sense that Apartheid South Africa was.

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

Why shouldn't they, considering the occupation has been ongoing for that time?

Lets be honest here. The way relations are with Israel and other ME countries has almost nothing to do with the West Bank and much more to do with Anti-Semtism.

Regardless, it has achieved nothing in the Arab world, so there is no point in continuing a failed policy.

...not where it allows an ongoing crime to go ahead.

So, you want more war in the ME? Tell me how you would like that to manifest itself?
Do you want ISIS to lead the charge?
Hamas?
Hezbollah?
Saudi?
Assad?

All a great bunch of lads who love civil and human rights and are protector of women, gays, and minorities... :D:D

Israel is a democracy in the same sense that Apartheid South Africa was.

You are quite wrong about that.

Blacks didn't get to vote in South Africa, Muslims do get to vote in Israel.
I love people love to compare the two as if they are apples, but Isreal/Palestine conflucit is a different beast to South Africa.

iamstop

coinop wrote: »

Bahrain has followed in the UAE's footsteps and agrees to normalize relations with Israel. Source.

In other news, Serbia become the latest country to designate Hezbollah a terror group. Source.

I almost feel bad for the Palestine fanboys on here. Black Lives Matter has replaced Palestine as the latest trendy cause for the Irish Left and is stealing the limelight on social media. Seems nobody cares anymore.

It's possible to care about two things.

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

Lets be honest here. The way relations are with Israel and other ME countries has almost nothing to do with the West Bank and much more to do with Anti-Semtism.

Regardless, it has achieved nothing in the Arab world, so there is no point in continuing a failed policy.




So, you want more war in the ME? Tell me how you would like that to manifest itself?
Do you want ISIS to lead the charge?
Hamas?
Hezbollah?
Saudi?
Assad?

All a great bunch of lads who love civil and human rights and are protector of women, gays, and minorities... :D:D



You are quite wrong about that.

Blacks didn't get to vote in South Africa, Muslims do get to vote in Israel.
I love people love to compare the two as if they are apples, but Isreal/Palestine conflucit is a different beast to South Africa.

As much as being anti-apartheid was hating whitey. Sure :rolleyes:

If you keep shoveling such dishonest crap you'll never learn, but I expect that's not the goal. Empathy, decency, who needs it. All about winning, am I right?

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

....................


You are quite wrong about that.

Blacks didn't get to vote in South Africa, Muslims do get to vote in Israel.
I love people love to compare the two as if they are apples, but Isreal/Palestine conflucit is a different beast to South Africa.

There was a 'coloured' parliament that they could vote for, for all the good that did them

https://www.history.com/topics/africa/apartheid#section_4



....yet those living under the occupation outside Israels borders don't get a vote for the knesset- millions of them. Neither do they have access to the same justice available to their colonists neighbours. No real access to democracy, subject to a different lower form of 'justice', confined to certain areas, roads, denied access to resources and building permits by its colonial occupier - they are indeed the same beast. And thats also the opinion of the likes of Archbishop Tutu, Nelson Mandela, who are far more familiar with Apartheid than most.

markodaly

Bowie wrote: »

As much as being anti-apartheid was hating whitey. Sure :rolleyes:

If you keep shoveling such dishonest crap you'll never learn, but I expect that's not the goal. Empathy, decency, who needs it. All about winning, am I right?

Hmmm, I see that you have not actually debating any of my points here but rather throwing out some lose emotional ad-hominems.

Regardless, it's true that Arabs and Muslims get to vote in Israel. It's a verifiable fact, therefore the direct apple vs apple comparison with South Africa is false.

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

There was a 'coloured' parliament that they could vote for, for all the good that did them

https://www.history.com/topics/africa/apartheid#section_4



....yet those living under the occupation outside Israels borders don't get a vote for the knesset- millions of them. Neither do they have access to the same justice available to their colonists neighbours. No real access to democracy, subject to a different lower form of 'justice', confined to certain areas, roads, denied access to resources and building permits by its colonial occupier - they are indeed the same beast. And thats also the opinion of the likes of Archbishop Tutu, Nelson Mandela, who are far more familiar with Apartheid than most.

That is all well and good, but the fact of the matter is, Arabs and Muslims get to have a vote for the Israeli Knesset, therefore the direct comparison to Apartheid South Africa, although a good emotional marketing tool to rope in the gullible is just that.
That is not to say there are issues with the Occupied Territory which I hope can be resolved by a long-lasting peace agreement, something that will be closer to realise if and when other Arab countries normalise relations with Israel.

If your goal is peace, you will welcome the latest moves in this direction. Otherwise you are just another anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish fundamentalist who desires more war, death and destruction, all from the comfortable surroundings of middle class Ireland.
And remember you have form the anti-Semtie utterings when it comes to Jews in Israel.

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

Hmmm, I see that you have not actually debating any of my points here but rather throwing out some lose emotional ad-hominems.

Regardless, it's true that Arabs and Muslims get to vote in Israel. It's a verifiable fact, therefore the direct apple vs apple comparison with South Africa is false.

Emmm...the one were you equated support for Palestinian with antisemitism was dealt with.
You make it about religion like some Muslim nations being cool with Israel negates any support for Palestinians. Its like saying you're not racist because you have black friends.

Israel needs to address its criminality, apologise, withdraw and then talk peace. Anything else is just a bunch of crony states using each other for optics. Nobody is buyng it as a peace. Not even Israel.

markodaly

Bowie wrote: »

Emmm...the one were you equated support for Palestinian with antisemitism was dealt with.
You make it about religion like some Muslim nations being cool with Israel negates any support for Palestinians. Its like saying you're not racist because you have black friends.

What in god's name are you babbling on about? You inferred all that from my post Matt?

The topic at hand is the normalisinig of relations between Israel and its Arab neighbours. This is a good thing, No?

Israel needs to address its criminality, apologise, withdraw and then talk peace. Anything else is just a bunch of crony states using each other for optics. Nobody is buyng it as a peace. Not even Israel.

Withdraw to what border? Your solution is fairytale stuff.

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

What in god's name are you babbling on about? You inferred all that from my post Matt?

The topic at hand is the normalisinig of relations between Israel and its Arab neighbours. This is a good thing, No?



Withdraw to what border? Your solution is fairytale stuff.

You said...

Lets be honest here. The way relations are with Israel and other ME countries has almost nothing to do with the West Bank and much more to do with Anti-Semtism.

Its akin to suggesting anyone anti-apartheid didnt like whitey. Its nonsense.
What of the Israelis that have issue with Israeli state actions?
This supposed peace; the Trumps haven't even spoke to the Palestinians.

So now that you rolled out your safe word 'matt' i'll leave you to your childishness and hate.

markodaly

Bowie wrote: »

Its akin to suggesting anyone anti-apartheid didnt like whitey. Its nonsense.

Well, you do know that other Arab countries conspired and attacked Israel not once, not twice but three times, each time with the intention of driving 'The Jews' back into the sea.

Anti-Semitism is widespread and deeply ingrained in the Arab world.

Harvard University Professor Ruth R. Wisse claims that "anti-Semitism / Zionism has been the cornerstone of pan-Arab politics since the Second World War" and that it is the "strongest actual and potential source of unity" in the Arab world.[25] This is because Jews and Israel function as substitutes for Western values that challenge the hegemony of religious and political power in the Middle East. Antisemitism is also malleable enough that it can unite right-wing and left-wing groups within the Arab world.

Robert Bernstein, founder of Human Rights Watch, says that antisemitism is "deeply ingrained and institutionalized" in "Arab nations in modern times

Do you deny this assertion?

So now that you rolled out your safe word 'matt' i'll leave you to your childishness and hate.

Hate, because I welcome normalising relations between Israel and other Arab countries that increases the odds of peace?

My oh my!

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
And remember you have form the anti-Semtie utterings when it comes to Jews in Israel.

Please supply quotes to back up that accusation

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

That is all well and good, but the fact of the matter is, Arabs and Muslims get to have a vote for the Israeli Knesset, therefore the direct comparison to Apartheid South Africa, ..............l.

Millions live under Israeli control without a vote in knesset, while the colonists amongst them - despite living in the same area, outside Israels legal borders - have one. Thats essentially apartheid clear and simple.

MontgomeryClift

"Normalize"

Notice the linguistic trick being employed here. Normal describes something typical, something that is to be expected.

Not to recognize Israel is to be abnormal, to deviate from what is expected, to be aberrant in some way.

I've come to the conclusion that this is the Jews' most powerful tool, even above their use of wealth to buy influence. They have a talent for enforcing ideas through language that other users of the language lack the ability even to detect.

The best example has to be Leon Trotsky(Lev Davidovich Bronstein)'s deployment of the term "racism." There can scarcely be a word so powerful in its ability to control people.

Odhinn

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

"Normalize"

Notice the linguistic trick being employed here. Normal describes something typical, something that is to be expected.

Not to recognize Israel is to be abnormal, to deviate from what is expected, to be aberrant in some way.

I've come to the conclusion that this is the Jews' most powerful tool, even above their use of wealth to buy influence. They have a talent for enforcing ideas through language that other users of the language lack the ability even to detect.

The best example has to be Leon Trotsky(Lev Davidovich Bronstein)'s deployment of the term "racism." There can scarcely be a word so powerful in its ability to control people.

Seriously, GTFO.

MontgomeryClift

Odhinn wrote: »

Seriously, GTFO.

Why?

Odhinn

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

Why?

....because its a reduntant load of anti-semetic cack.

MontgomeryClift

Odhinn wrote: »

....because its a reduntant load of anti-semetic cack.

You've resorted to empty invective now, and the use of the term "anti-semitic," which is a misnomer. It began as a term to describe differences in language, but soon took on a racial meaning, and now it's used (very effectively) to describe any critique or deconstruction of Jewish power.

Clearly you're one of those I referred to above, who lacks the ability to detect these subtle tricks of language. Notice how even pointing out their use makes you foam at the mouth.

Odhinn

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

You've resorted to empty invective now, and the use of the term "anti-semitic," which is a misnomer. It began as a term to describe differences in language, but soon took on a racial meaning, and now it's used (very effectively) to describe any critique or deconstruction of Jewish power.

Clearly you're one of those I referred to above, who lacks the ability to detect these subtle tricks of language. Notice how even pointing out their use makes you foam at the mouth.

As I said - redundant anti-semetic cack.