Israel and the UAE normalize relations

MontgomeryClift

The FNG wrote: »

I thought you hated Israel?

You get these people who criticize Israel while walking on eggshells, trying not to be perceived as "anti-semitic," as if the Israeli question has nothing whatsoever to do with Jewishness. They end up being very confused and incoherent, as we've just seen.

MontgomeryClift

The FNG wrote: »

I don't see how you can separate Jewishness and Israel.

Exactly. I don't think one can, yet some people try to walk that tightrope.

Odhinn

The FNG wrote: »

I thought you hated Israel?

Israel is a state. Hating Jews is not the same as objecting to Israels activities. There are plenty of Jews and Israelis who are against the occupation. The notion that "the jews" are some monolithic group is a nonsense, much in the same way the notion "the muslims"/"arabs" are all an amorphous mass is.

end of the road

markodaly wrote: »

Would you rather relations stay frosty and icy, as they have for the past 60+ years? I am sure you would, in fact, I think you may like another Arab Israeli war, where the Jews are driven back into the sea, but the fact of the matter is, it's not going to happen.

The sooner the other Arab states make peace and normalise relations with Israel the better, as then work can begin on an actual long-lasting settlement to the issue of Palestine.

Peace is always better than war, I am sure you know that!

Also, in case you have not noticed, Saudi is also a monarchy and there are no really demoracies in the Middle east, well apart from Israel!

hysterical nonsense, nobody wants the jews driven into the sea.
israel is not a real democracy by the way, it's an apartheid state where those seen as deserving can take part and those not, can't, by virtue of the fact that they are engaging in occupation and ongoing border expansions where in turn, 1 group of people in the area continue to have access to the same systems as they did when they lived in the state of israel, whereas the natives of the territories stolen have no rights.

markodaly wrote: »

Lets be honest here. The way relations are with Israel and other ME countries has almost nothing to do with the West Bank and much more to do with Anti-Semtism.

Regardless, it has achieved nothing in the Arab world, so there is no point in continuing a failed policy.




So, you want more war in the ME? Tell me how you would like that to manifest itself?
Do you want ISIS to lead the charge?
Hamas?
Hezbollah?
Saudi?
Assad?

All a great bunch of lads who love civil and human rights and are protector of women, gays, and minorities...



You are quite wrong about that.

Blacks didn't get to vote in South Africa, Muslims do get to vote in Israel.
I love people love to compare the two as if they are apples, but Isreal/Palestine conflucit is a different beast to South Africa.

it's nothing to do with anti-semitism, but to do with the fact that at the moment, israel has nothing to offer those countries which would make it worth their while to improve their relations with them.
and yeah, the individuals you mention and the israely government and military do have a lot in common, and none of it good.

markodaly wrote: »

That is all well and good, but the fact of the matter is, Arabs and Muslims get to have a vote for the Israeli Knesset, therefore the direct comparison to Apartheid South Africa, although a good emotional marketing tool to rope in the gullible is just that.
That is not to say there are issues with the Occupied Territory which I hope can be resolved by a long-lasting peace agreement, something that will be closer to realise if and when other Arab countries normalise relations with Israel.

If your goal is peace, you will welcome the latest moves in this direction. Otherwise you are just another anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish fundamentalist who desires more war, death and destruction, all from the comfortable surroundings of middle class Ireland.
And remember you have form the anti-Semtie utterings when it comes to Jews in Israel.

crowing anti-semitism doesn't work anymore.
if it's anti-semitism to state facts about the state of israel then it is islamaphobic to state facts about states such as saudi arabia.
i can bet that if i was to call people stating facts about say, saudi arabia, islamaphobic, you would probably be one of the first to call that as bs, and quite rightly so.

James Brown

The FNG wrote: »

I thought you hated Israel?

I know an Israeli hates the regime in Israel. People are complex. I know it doesn't fit the criminal BiBi (custodial sentence pending) party line.

"God asks the wicked of the world why they did not come closer to God. Each person responds, “I was so steeped in my wickedness that I was ashamed.” Too ashamed, it seems, to muster sufficient courage to admit failures, change behaviors, and move closer—ritually if not spiritually—to God, and so they wallowed deeper into wickedness. Had these people not been so wicked, their shame might have spurred a return to God."

James Brown

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

You get these people who criticize Israel while walking on eggshells, trying not to be perceived as "anti-semitic," as if the Israeli question has nothing whatsoever to do with Jewishness. They end up being very confused and incoherent, as we've just seen.

You are insulting Jewish people the world over by equating Jewishness with the current murderous criminal Israeli regime. For shame.

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

Well, you do know that other Arab countries conspired and attacked Israel not once, not twice but three times, each time with the intention of driving 'The Jews' back into the sea.

Anti-Semitism is widespread and deeply ingrained in the Arab world.



Do you deny this assertion?




Hate, because I welcome normalising relations between Israel and other Arab countries that increases the odds of peace?

My oh my!

I stand on my view that supporting the plight of the Palestinians in the face of Israeli aggression is not antisemitism. To suggest such a thing is spin or ignorance.

I don't believe you are that naive. You are cheerleading a deal of convenience.

Danzy

markodaly wrote: »

And remember you have form the anti-Semtie utterings when it comes to Jews in Israel.

Jews outside of Israel have sometimes been in Odhinn's lens as well.

I believe in a 2 State solution and Israel's approach is often disgusting.

The Plo are now a joke and Hamas is a threat to even the most basic of human rights and decency.

Odhinn

Danzy wrote: »

Jews outside of Israel have sometimes been in Odhinn's lens as well.

..............

You might explain what you mean by that, and supply a few quotes while ye are at it.

531

I would like to ask Coinop; Why does a people who suffered the holocaust think it ok to inflict such horror on another people? Of course, I mean the treatment of people in, for example, Gaza. Food, water, electricity rationing, weapons testing, carrying out of atroccities and mudering innocents for political gain...

James Brown

The pro-Israeli regime spin merchants need to stop pretending every member of the Jewish faith automatically supports the thieving of land and butchering of Palestinians. It's dishonest, not credible and insulting to members of the Jewish faith, including decent peaceful Israelis. Nobody buys the pro peace or two state solution as being antisemetic.

Over nearly two decades, a nonprofit organization called Birthright Israel has given nearly 700,000 young Jews an all-expense-paid trip to Israel, an effort to bolster a distinct Jewish identity and forge an emotional connection to Israel. The trips, which are partly funded by the Israeli government, have become a rite of passage for American Jews. Nearly 33,000 are set to travel this summer.

But over the past year, some Jewish activists have protested Birthright, saying the trips erase the experiences of Israeli Arabs and Palestinians living under occupation in the West Bank. Activists have circulated petitions, staged sit-ins at Hillels on college campuses and blocked Birthright’s headquarters in New York. But no protests have generated more publicity and outrage than the walk-offs from a handful of Birthright trips.
Link

markodaly

Odhinn wrote: »

You might explain what you mean by that, and supply a few quotes while ye are at it.

Well, you cheered on the murder of Settler Jews in front of their children.

Also, by the terms the IHRA, you made previous posts that fell under the 'Anti-Semite' umbrella.

Indeed many people here have.

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

Well, you cheered on the murder of Settler Jews in front of their children.

Also, by the terms the IHRA, you made previous posts that fell under the 'Anti-Semite' umbrella.

Indeed many people here have.

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

Vague inferences. Quote that chap or retract the baloney.
You're cheering on the Trump regime ignoring Palestinians and proclaiming peace because a few vested interests are in a deal of convenience. So you are either very naive and supporting a continuation of Israeli aggression or cynically supporting a continuation of Israeli aggression.

Yellow_Fern

I fully support Palestinians right to have legal claims of stolen land in Israel, just like I support the rights of Mizrahim Jews to have a legal pathway to the returns of the property stolen in Arab countries in the 20th cen. However this is private property. Not sure about statehood

Odhinn

markodaly wrote: »

Well, you cheered on the murder of Settler Jews in front of their children.

You might quote exactly what I stated.



Settlers are armed colonists. The fact they are jews is nothing to do with it.

Also, by the terms the IHRA, you made previous posts that fell under the 'Anti-Semite' umbrella.

Again, utter tosh.

end of the road

markodaly wrote: »

Well, you cheered on the murder of Settler Jews in front of their children.

Also, by the terms the IHRA, you made previous posts that fell under the 'Anti-Semite' umbrella.

Indeed many people here have.

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

you missed this vital point from the article.
"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic"

so, apart from 2 individuals earlier who were called out by odhin, nobody else has posted any actual antesemetic posts.
the killing of setlers is absolutely nothing to do with them being jewish, but to do with them being violent terrorists who engage in brutalisation and who are a severe threat.

MontgomeryClift

Bowie wrote: »

You are insulting Jewish people the world over by equating Jewishness with the current murderous criminal Israeli regime. For shame.

Yes, I know all that. There have always been anti-Zionist Jews, and Zionism began as a niche movement, even among Jews, many of whom thought it was a bad idea to risk stirring up resentment, and that they should try to integrate with Gentile society instead of separating from it.

Yet what you're trying to do here is criticise Israel while trying not to refer to Jews as a cohesive group because there are non-Zionist or anti-Zionist Jews, and you're probably afraid of being called "anti-semitic." To do this you have to talk about Israel while pretending that it's "just about a state," that Jews are just complete individuals with no group tendencies that we can identify, and that international Jewish power is not a factor in the situation.

This is why people like you have been losing this argument for over fifty years, and will continue to lose it. You're trying to fight with your hands tied. In any case, good luck with your doomed argument.

Odhinn

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

Yes, I know all that. There have always been anti-Zionist Jews, and Zionism began as a niche movement, even among Jews, many of whom thought it was a bad idea to risk stirring up resentment, and that they should try to integrate with Gentile society instead of separating from it.

Yet what you're trying to do here is criticise Israel while trying not to refer to Jews as a cohesive group because there are non-Zionist or anti-Zionist Jews, and you're probably afraid of being called "anti-semitic." To do this you have to talk about Israel while pretending that it's "just about a state," that Jews are just complete individuals with no group tendencies that we can identify, and that international Jewish power is not a factor in the situation.

This is why people like you have been losing this argument for over fifty years, and will continue to lose it. You're trying to fight with your hands tied. In any case, good luck with your doomed argument.

Again, the notion that Jews form a monolithic block. It's a anti-semetic and ridicolous trope.

FTA69

coinop wrote: »

Your nationality is the country of your birth. Simple. Unless...all those kids in Ireland born to Nigerian parents are not actually Irish after all...

Right so when Israel was founded by Eastern European and North African migrants then none of them were actually “Israeli” yeah?

MontgomeryClift

Odhinn wrote: »

Again, the notion that Jews form a monolithic block. It's a anti-semetic and ridicolous trope.

That's not what I said at all.

Odhinn

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

That's not what I said at all. Learn to read.

O I read your posts allright

To do this you have to talk about Israel while pretending that it's "just about a state," that Jews are just complete individuals with no group tendencies that we can identify, and that international Jewish power is not a factor in the situation.

Not to recognize Israel is to be abnormal, to deviate from what is expected, to be aberrant in some way.

I've come to the conclusion that this is the Jews' most powerful tool, even above their use of wealth to buy influence. They have a talent for enforcing ideas through language that other users of the language lack the ability even to detect.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114627159&postcount=146


Anti semitism, clear as day.

James Brown

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

Yes, I know all that. There have always been anti-Zionist Jews, and Zionism began as a niche movement, even among Jews, many of whom thought it was a bad idea to risk stirring up resentment, and that they should try to integrate with Gentile society instead of separating from it.

Yet what you're trying to do here is criticise Israel while trying not to refer to Jews as a cohesive group because there are non-Zionist or anti-Zionist Jews, and you're probably afraid of being called "anti-semitic." To do this you have to talk about Israel while pretending that it's "just about a state," that Jews are just complete individuals with no group tendencies that we can identify, and that international Jewish power is not a factor in the situation.

This is why people like you have been losing this argument for over fifty years, and will continue to lose it. You're trying to fight with your hands tied. In any case, good luck with your doomed argument.

A long winded way of saying if you criticse Israel you criticise jews.
I will not pretend to be antisemitic to suit that agenda.
We are capable of criticism of the US without being anti-christian etc. Its a silly attempt you are trying on here.
Israel could change its policies tomorrow and that would change my view of the state. That's the key difference.

Montage of Feck

The ancient jewish populations of every Arab nation has all but disappeared in the last half century. Maybe both sides should just call quits and hold what they have.

MontgomeryClift

Bowie wrote: »

A long winded way of saying if you criticse Israel you criticise jews.
I will not pretend to be antisemitic to suit that agenda.
We are capable of criticism of the US without being anti-christian etc. Its a silly attempt you are trying on here.
Israel could change its policies tomorrow and that would change my view of the state. That's the key difference.

Let's get real. Do you think Israel would get away with all of the things you dislike about it if it weren't for the Jewish lobby in the US and the influence that it has?

Danzy

Odhinn wrote: »

O I read your posts allright








https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=114627159&postcount=146


Anti semitism, clear as day.

If anyone knows and recognizes antisemitism, it'll be your good self.

James Brown

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

Let's get real. Do you think Israel would get away with all of the things you dislike about it if it weren't for the Jewish lobby in the US and the influence that it has?

If you mean the pro Israel lobby? No.
FYI: people of the Jewish faith don’t automatically support what Israel does.
Do you think behind it all, if there was no money or access to some form of enrichment, Trump, the UAE etc. Would give Israel the time of day?

MontgomeryClift

Bowie wrote: »

If you mean the pro Israel lobby? No.
FYI: people of the Jewish faith don’t automatically support what Israel does.

That's what I said above.

Do you think behind it all, if there was no money or access to some form of enrichment, Trump, the UAE etc. Would give Israel the time of day?

What do you mean by money or enrichment? Do you mean that the US stands to gain from its relationship with Israel?

Since you're making a distinction between Jewish interests and the Israel lobby (obviously they don't overlap perfectly as there are non-Jewish Zionists and non-Zionist Jews), I'll put it like this: Do you think that the pro-Israel lobby would be anywhere near as powerful as it is in the US if Jews in general (not all Jews, etc.) didn't exert so much financial and political power there?

James Brown

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

That's what I said above.

What do you mean by money or enrichment? Do you mean that the US stands to gain from its relationship with Israel?

Since you're making a distinction between Jewish interests and the Israel lobby (obviously they don't overlap perfectly as there are non-Jewish Zionists and non-Zionist Jews), I'll put it like this: Do you think that the pro-Israel lobby would be anywhere near as powerful as it is in the US if Jews in general (not all Jews, etc.) didn't exert so much financial and political power there?

You said 'Jewish lobby', I clarified.

Benefit one way or another. Well?

As the pro Israeli lobby is likely consisting of many people of the jewish faith, if no jewish person had money, influence or Israel had nothing to offer, no, it wouldn't.
To once again explain this to you pretty clearly, the jewish faith is not the issue, Israeli policy is. If Israel changed it's policies I'd change my views on Israel. I've no issue with the jewish faith. You seem to be borderline antisemitic or in the least not a fan of jewish people. You must understand that there is no all jewish global conspiracy.

Odhinn

Danzy wrote: »

If anyone knows and recognizes antisemitism, it'll be your good self.

Either back up your accusation or withdraw it.

MontgomeryClift

Bowie wrote: »

You said 'Jewish lobby', I clarified.

Benefit one way or another. Well?

As the pro Israeli lobby is likely consisting of many people of the jewish faith, if no jewish person had money, influence or Israel had nothing to offer, no, it wouldn't.

I think we're getting to the truth now, but you're going to extremes by saying that if no Jewish person had money, etc. I'll sum up by saying that if Jewish donations to political parties were a mere 2%, in line with the Jewish US population, then I'm pretty confident that Israel wouldn't have the support of the US.

Also, when Sheldon Adelson contributes $100+ million to Donald Trump's re-election, or when Bernard Marcus contributes $680+ million to Republican candidates in a single year, they're doing so not simply to further their individual interests but the interests of their people whose homeland is Israel.

To once again explain this to you pretty clearly, the jewish faith is not the issue, Israeli policy is. If Israel changed it's policies I'd change my views on Israel. I've no issue with the jewish faith. You seem to be borderline antisemitic or in the least not a fan of jewish people. You must understand that there is no all jewish global conspiracy.

You're bringing in odd stuff now about a global conspiracy. And the old anti-semitism namecalling trick doesn't work on me, if that's not obvious already. I'm not a fan of any people.

As for the Jewish faith not being the issue, that's true in so far as not all people who claim Jewish identity are religious. Yet I'm not sure how it can be dismissed entirely, short of immersing yourself in Jewish scriptures for years in order to rule out the possibility. Surely centuries of religious teaching can affect the behaviour of any group, as centuries of Christian teaching have surely had some effect on the outlook of Europeans.

Danzy wrote:

If anyone knows and recognizes antisemitism, it'll be your good self.

Odhimm wrote:

Either back up your accusation or withdraw it.