Beginner Strength Programmes

Mellor

harpstilidie wrote: »

Had a look at these programmes and thinking of starting with StrongLifts 5x5. Starting Strength looks good but I've never done Power Cleans before and they look scary. Is StrongLifts 5x5 a good starting point and should I incorporate some cardio in as well in order to lose fat?.

SL is probably the weakest of the options in the OP.

If you want to drop cleans. Find a modified SS format or do Greyskull LP

Cill94

Yeah the power cleans aren’t mandatory, and definitely not advisable to try teach yourself how to do them.

You could just sub them for a lighter deadlift/deadlift type exercise. Or do a different programme.

Black Sheep

harpstilidie wrote: »

Hi folks, looking some advice please...

Looking to get back to my gym post lock down but really struggling to find a decent workout programme.

I'm male, 30 years old, and 11st 2lbs so reasonably skinny but do have a bit of belly fat that needs shifting and I've basically zero muscle!

I'm looking to build muscle and lose some belly fat along the way.

Had a look at these programmes and thinking of starting with StrongLifts 5x5. Starting Strength looks good but I've never done Power Cleans before and they look scary. Is StrongLifts 5x5 a good starting point and should I incorporate some cardio in as well in order to lose fat?

Thanks.

If I can offer my POV:-

If power cleans are off putting to you it's worth bearing in mind that the initial Starting Strength novice progression does not have you power cleaning. You would be deadlifting on both your A and B day for the first few weeks ( https://startingstrength.com/get-started/programs ). If you ran this for 3-4 weeks then you would have gotten 9-12 workouts under your belt and be a few months in before you need to worry about learning to power clean. In the meantime, you could practice and get some video feedback. There's a ton of form check forums out there devoted to Starting Strength. Or, as mentioned, try the Greyskull LP.

In relation to Stronglifts, the main issue is that you can't continue to add weight to the bar for as long as if you were doing 3x5 instead of 5x5. Someone is going to finish on 5x5 a lot sooner than if they were doing 3x5, where they are doing several sets less a week, but still getting enough work done to drive adaptation and get stronger.

In relation to your body composition, you mention that you're skinny, are under-muscled and yet have fat to lose. This is super common, and your best bet is not going to be to try to spot diet away the fat, it's to pack on some mass with strength training and see how that looks in the mirror before deciding what to do next. It may seem paradoxical, but it's quite possible you will need to eat more than you are now, not less.

Brian?

I'm not sure why power cleans put people off. But you can do rows instead until you learn to do them.

Just add really light cleans with s bar until the technique is right. I love a power clean.

harpstilidie

Thanks for all the replies folks. Done a good bit of research this evening and think I'll give SS a go and can substitute the Power Cleans for Rows instead if needed.

Do I need to do warm up sets for every exercise or just a general warm up before my workout?

Cill94

harpstilidie wrote: »

Do I need to do warm up sets for every exercise or just a general warm up before my workout?

Yeah always do warm-ups sets.

https://startingstrength.com/training/our-warm-up-is-a-warm-up

There’s loads of articles detailing the finer aspect of the programme on the site. The book could also be worth getting.

Black Sheep

The Starting Strength app is another option for you, if you want to take the thinking out of it.

ancapailldorcha

Sorry to bump and old thread but would there enough info on the site to learn how to do the lifts properly or would you need a trainer?

Mellor

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Sorry to bump and old thread but would there enough info on the site to learn how to do the lifts properly or would you need a trainer?

There are lots of resources online to learn how to squat, bench, deadlift, clean. And you can absolutely learn properly. A trainer will remove the effort, and get you there faster (assuming they know how to coach the lifts).

Alf Veedersane

Juggernaut Training Systems did a good series of videos for the squat, bench and deadlift that people might find helpful as well.

ancapailldorcha

Thanks both.

I've sort of made my own plan instead of the dumbell stuff I was recommended but if I get more confident I might try SS. I'm a little wary of googling this sort of stuff as if I feck something up, it's likely permanent or long term.

Black Sheep

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Thanks both.

I've sort of made my own plan instead of the dumbell stuff I was recommended but if I get more confident I might try SS. I'm a little wary of googling this sort of stuff as if I feck something up, it's likely permanent or long term.

If you do decide to go the Starting Strength route then check out the videos that Mark Rippetoe did with Art of Manliness on the squat, bench, deadlift and press. They're comprehensive in respect to the Starting Strength approach to these lifts. I say that as it might different from the way Chad Wesley Smith (Juggernaut Training Systems) might suggest squatting, for example. So best pick an approach and stick to it until you know enough to decide for yourself.

If you don't have a coach, then if you are going the Starting Strength route then the progression usually seems to be reading the book, watching the videos and beginning conservatively in terms of weight. Video your lifts and appraise things like depth yourself as best you can. If you're brave enough then there are many Starting Strength facebook groups, reddit groups and forums which will allow you to post a video for "form check" by a coach.

I feel obliged at this point to mention that Starting Strength has a very strong community in the sense that all of the above is accessible and pretty much there to be picked up and ran with ... But on the other hand there are people who would say that Starting Strength get a lot of things wrong.

All the same, you could do a lot worse, enjoy!

ancapailldorcha

Black Sheep wrote: »

If you do decide to go the Starting Strength route then check out the videos that Mark Rippetoe did with Art of Manliness on the squat, bench, deadlift and press. They're comprehensive in respect to the Starting Strength approach to these lifts.

If you don't have a coach, then if you are going the Starting Strength route then the progression usually seems to be reading the book, watching the videos and beginning conservatively in terms of weight. Video your lifts and appraise things like depth yourself as best you can. If you're brave enough then there are many Starting Strength facebook groups, reddit groups and forums which will allow you to post a video for "form check" by a coach.

I feel obliged at this point to mention that Starting Strength has a very strong community in the sense that all of the above is accessible and pretty much there to be picked up and ran with ... But on the other hand there are people who would say that Starting Strength get a lot of things wrong.

Probably not the best place to begin as a novice, though, enjoy!

Thank you for this.

Yeah, I'm inclined to get used to going to the gym as for some reason I seem able to get up at the crack of dawn to get a session in before work. Shame there aren't meetup groups or something similar but I'll have a look on Facebook. Never thought to do that.

Alf Veedersane

Black Sheep wrote: »

If you do decide to go the Starting Strength route then check out the videos that Mark Rippetoe did with Art of Manliness on the squat, bench, deadlift and press. They're comprehensive in respect to the Starting Strength approach to these lifts. I say that as it might different from the way Chad Wesley Smith (Juggernaut Training Systems) might suggest squatting, for example. So best pick an approach and stick to it until you know enough to decide for yourself.

If you don't have a coach, then if you are going the Starting Strength route then the progression usually seems to be reading the book, watching the videos and beginning conservatively in terms of weight. Video your lifts and appraise things like depth yourself as best you can. If you're brave enough then there are many Starting Strength facebook groups, reddit groups and forums which will allow you to post a video for "form check" by a coach.

I feel obliged at this point to mention that Starting Strength has a very strong community in the sense that all of the above is accessible and pretty much there to be picked up and ran with ... But on the other hand there are people who would say that Starting Strength get a lot of things wrong.

All the same, you could do a lot worse, enjoy!

This is a great shout.

Because you will probably try do it like a lot of good coaches say and the way that works best for you is exactly like none of them but a lot like all of them.

Mr. CooL ICE

Great advice from Black Sheep.

I'd emphasise the videoing your own lifts bit. Even if you're nervous about sharing them with others, analysing them yourself will often give plenty of clues to figure out how to improve your lifts. Looking for things like bar path from a side view can easily show when something has gone right or wrong.

Cill94

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Sorry to bump and old thread but would there enough info on the site to learn how to do the lifts properly or would you need a trainer?

One thing I'd add to what the others have said is that I think it's very important to pick a source of information and just stick with it, at least until you're quite strong on the lifts.

The amount of information out there is great but can also be paralyzing if you listen to it all, you're going to notice a lot of disagreement about what the 'right' way is. E.g. one guy says look at the floor when you squat, the other says look straight ahead. One says put the bar high on your back, the other says low. Rest assured these details really don't matter.

As long as you're taking in solid info that is getting you to do the basic stuff you can see in those programmes we have linked, you're on the right path.

I'd also really recommend recording yourself and comparing it to the source you're using to learn the lifts. I learned a lot of exercises that way early on.

ThunbergsAreGo

Does it matter which of the Westside for Skinny Bastards you do, or is latest greatest?

Black Sheep

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Does it matter which of the Westside for Skinny Bastards you do, or is latest greatest?

They’re more similar than not, but I think the later ones are more customisable / orientated to field sports athletes. Slightly more volume in the later incarnations too if you work it out but of all of them my favorite was WS4SB1 and also the “washed up meatheads” template, which is kind of a throwback to 1. Best for general trainee and a bit of physique.

Cill94

One thing I’d recommend for anyone doing WS4SB is to not change the main lift often at all. More practice at the same exercise will allow you to get stronger and bigger faster.

Black Sheep

Cill94 wrote: »

One thing I’d recommend for anyone doing WS4SB is to not change the main lift often at all. More practice at the same exercise will allow you to get stronger and bigger faster.

I agree with this. I think what most people do is correct and that’s to give it at least 4-6 weeks of a run before changing lift. Worth noting that as with any conjugate program the only way to continue to progress on the main lift is if you make your assistance and accessories count. You have to use all that volume in a mindful way, with intensity and pushing each time to progress. Because those assistance and accessories are going to have to be quality work bringing along weak points to keep boosting your main lift, which is not that much volume, even on WS4SB. Not getting this is one reason people don’t get somewhere on any conjugate program, whether it’s from DiFranco or wherever.

Alf Veedersane

Cill94 wrote: »

One thing I’d recommend for anyone doing WS4SB is to not change the main lift often at all. More practice at the same exercise will allow you to get stronger and bigger faster.

I think any changes in the main lift should really only be variations of the movement - pause/tempo squats. Or high/low bar. Grip width or pause/tempo on bench. Pause or snatch grip deadlift. That kinda thing.

It's enough variation to run for a bit and freshen it up without fundamentally changing the movement.

Well...in me less-than-qualified opinion.

Cill94

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I think any changes in the main lift should really only be variations of the movement - pause/tempo squats. Or high/low bar. Grip width or pause/tempo on bench. Pause or snatch grip deadlift. That kinda thing.

It's enough variation to run for a bit and freshen it up without fundamentally changing the movement.

Well...in me less-than-qualified opinion.

For beginners I like to keep things very simple and vary nothing except the rep ranges ,and the accessory exercises when they get boring. One reason why 5/3/1 would be my favourite of the ones listed.

Mellor

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I think any changes in the main lift should really only be variations of the movement - pause/tempo squats. Or high/low bar. Grip width or pause/tempo on bench. Pause or snatch grip deadlift. That kinda thing.

If the goal is powerlifting, then I strongly agree. In that case it needs to be be a big 3 direct variation.
If the goal is looking better naked, I think you get more flexibility. But common sense applies.

Alf Veedersane

Cill94 wrote: »

For beginners I like to keep things very simple and vary nothing except the rep ranges ,and the accessory exercises when they get boring. One reason why 5/3/1 would be my favourite of the ones listed.

Yep, very much so. I wasn't thinking of beginners per se. It's probably easier to introduce some variation/freshness by changing other exercises a little rather than the main lifts.

Mellor wrote: »

If the goal is powerlifting, then I strongly agree. In that case it needs to be be a big 3 direct variation.
If the goal is looking better naked, I think you get more flexibility. But common sense applies.

Again, I'd agree. Looking through the powerlifting prism here.

Black Sheep

In terms of choice of lifts on any conjugate set up, there are a few considerations, but all said so far is valid.

This is what I cycle through, and I do change my lift weekly, but I've been doing conjugate for a few years and have a lot of practice on all the variations:-

Max effort upper
1. Competition bench
2. Close grip bench
3. Spoto bench
4. Dead start rack bench
5. Pin bench
6. Floor press
7. Thick grip bench
8. Shoulder press
9. Standing pin press
10. Incline bench

Max effort lower
1. Squat
2. Paused squat
3. Pin squat
4. Box squat
5. Front squat
6. Trap bar deadlift
7. Deadlift
8. Deficit deadlift
9. Wide grip deadlift
10. Wide grip deficit deadlift
11. Sumo deadlift
12. Block / rack pull

Could be forgetting a few but you get the idea. This is also not the order I cycle them in.

Sometimes I will also do 90% x 3 instead of going for a heavy single.

If you look at the above there are not many speciality bars. With just a straight bar it's totally possible to still run conjugate. I also don't bother with bands or chains on the dynamic days, I just have more volume at a sub maximal weight.

I agree that for competition orientated people you need to chose ME movements on the basis of where your weak points are, and make sure you're actually focused on variations that carry over best to competition lifts. However, worth bearing in mind that by picking variations that are a bit different it's possible to have some waving of load in your training, so you're not getting ground down.

For physique focus I would say you can have more freedom but really it's going to be the high volume of assistance and accessory work that are going to bring along a balanced physique and give you a lot of the hypertrophy on a conjugate set-up. If your ME work is up to a heavy single for the day and then back offs are like 90% 2x2 or 85% 3x3 then you're still going to need to do a lot of high volume other work to get bigger. And the DE day can be more like a volume day for same reason.

WS4SB is the most 'beginner friendly' of conjugate set-ups because DiFranco has them working with a higher rep top set and has them switching out the movement less frequently than more intermediate or advanced conjugate would.

But I still think that before tackling either WS4SB or something like 5/3/1 it makes sense to run a linear progress to make as much progress in the most efficient amount of time possible.

Alf Veedersane

Black Sheep wrote: »

4. Dead start rack bench
5. Pin bench

Am I right in saying that the dead start is specifically where the pins are set so the bar is chest level whereas the pin press can be but can also be set at different levels so can be used for partial ROM?

Black Sheep

Alf,

For the dead start bench I set up the pins just above my chest. I begin the movement with the bar on the pins and I press it up overhead to lockout and then down to the pins again.

For the pin bench I basically set up the same way, but the movement begins with the bar racked, and I unrack as in a normal bench, lower down and I pause it on the pins for a long pause and then back up to lockout and re-rack.

They are quite similar movements done this way, but yeah you could also vary pin height depending on where weak points are.

With the standing pin press I set up the pins at my sticking point, which is around the eyes or just above, and I press off the pins there.

Alf Veedersane

Black Sheep wrote: »

Alf,

For the dead start bench I set up the pins just above my chest. I begin the movement with the bar on the pins and I press it up overhead to lockout and then down to the pins again.

For the pin bench I basically set up the same way, but the movement begins with the bar racked, and I unrack as in a normal bench, lower down and I pause it on the pins for a long pause and then back up to lockout and re-rack.

They are quite similar movements done this way, but yeah you could also vary pin height depending on where weak points are.

With the standing pin press I set up the pins at my sticking point, which is around the eyes or just above, and I press off the pins there.

Ah, gotcha. I had wondered if the differences were just those subtleties with dead start almost being a movement within a range covered by 'pin press' (I didn't differentiate between bench and OH press cos I don't do much barbell OHP).

I have used a mid-range pin press that should be something you can overload but the 4" pin spacing in the racks in Flyefit mean it's too high or maybe only 2" off the chest.

As an aside, the 4" spacings are a pain for pin squats and I have to stand on a bumper.

Black Sheep

Yeah, Westside hole spacing would be the dream for some movements, where hole spacing doesn't quite work out as you want. The hole spacing on my rack is not as bad as what you're describing but it's a bit awkward at times. Once or twice I have put leftover strips of rubber floor mat down on my bench in order to raise me up, to get into the right position.

blackwave

Is there any program that people could recommend for working with Bands / bodyweight. Don't have access to Dumb bells and don't really want to purchase any as living in a foreign country for a while and would have to sell them when I am moving home.