Predicted Grades Appeals

LW2018

keoclassic wrote: »

He's not blaming teachers, he simply stated that some teachers abused the system. If this whole fiasco proves anything, it is that teachers cannot be trusted enmasse to impartially assess students.

Well in that case, look back at the school record for a number of previous years and then re-align the results accordingly. If there were a substantial increase in the number of calculated grades in a particular subject in a given school or schools, those schools should have been looked at together. It sounds like those who are completely in support of how the Dept arrived at the results are from schools who benefited with the removal of profiling / are students who benefitted. Have heard rumblings about some seeking legal advice regarding the process and changes to it after the fact of data submission

Treppen

keoclassic wrote: »

He's not blaming teachers, he simply stated that some teachers abused the system. If this whole fiasco proves anything, it is that teachers cannot be trusted enmasse to impartially assess students.

Read back a few posts , crazy stuff going on after teachers had submitted grades.

The algorithm is a sham.

Told ye folks, the word 'calculated' was all for show.

Predicted grades would have been better.

Mardy Bum

Treppen wrote: »

Read back a few posts , crazy stuff going on after teachers had submitted grades.

The algorithm is a sham.

Told ye folks, the word 'calculated' was all for show.

Predicted grades would have been better.

A lengthy document has been released about the algorithm. It wasn't for show.

keoclassic

Treppen wrote: »

Read back a few posts , crazy stuff going on after teachers had submitted grades.

The algorithm is a sham.

Told ye folks, the word 'calculated' was all for show.

Predicted grades would have been better.

Predicted alone would be a sham. Some teachers completly abused the system. The system must have checks and balances.

deiseindublin

LW2018 wrote: »

It is bizarre to me too. What grounds did they have to reduce a student two grade bands, knowing NOTHING about the student's ability other than the calculated grade and possibly the JC result [which was very high in their JC]. It is like a lucky dip. I wonder is it worth while in the Principal checking what was entered for that student incase of a clerical error from the school's side - but the more I read about it, it seems to have happened in a number of schools. Like you say, altering some grades, who may have been on the border of an upper grade band seemed logical and fare if necessary.

I reckon it was moved down in a first calculation, and then moved again in another.

zetor 4911

deiseindublin wrote: »

I reckon it was moved down in a first calculation, and then moved again in another.

What I can't understand is how they selected the students to reduce by 2 grades. It seems to be haphazard at best.

RealJohn

Mardy Bum wrote: »

A lengthy document has been released about the algorithm. It wasn't for show.

Just because there was calculating involved doesn’t mean the final grades were calculated in any meaningful way. If you pick a bunch of numbers at random and put them through an algorithm, strictly speaking, you’ve calculated something, but the final result isn’t going to be a calculated representation of anything, other than what happens if you put randomly assigned numbers through an algorithm.

This process has been marginally better than that, and that’s as generous as you can be about it.

Treppen

Mardy Bum wrote: »

A lengthy document has been released about the algorithm. It wasn't for show.

Just because it was a lengthy document and just because you mentioned the word Algorithm doesn't lend any extra weight to it's credibility.

Appendix E in the document says they used JC results by compositing Irish,ENglish,Maths + Highest other 2 subjects.. and not on a subject-->subject basis.

So look at St. Killians. they might have not done so exceptional in the Irish English Maths (considering some would probably have exemptions coming from abroad!)... but this composite has an impact on their LC grade.

Treppen

keoclassic wrote: »

Predicted alone would be a sham. Some teachers completly abused the system. The system must have checks and balances.

I admire your faith in the checks and balances.

Did the checks and balances work?

Treppen

zetor 4911 wrote: »

What I can't understand is how they selected the students to reduce by 2 grades. It seems to be haphazard at best.

They had to bump down by a certain amount so that the class would conform to the national average.

Not sure how they selected individual students, but maybe there was a discrepancy in their JC results which got kicked forward into the LC!

gaiscioch

Does anybody get the impression that despite what was said, school records played some role in the results?

For instance, I’m aware of a teacher who consistently gets between 70% and 80% HIs/H2s out of his LC subject classes. This year they got 60%. Importantly, however, the national average in that subject is c. 20%. Or would the schools which annually get around the national average have got c.60% in this year’s results also?

Treppen

gaiscioch wrote: »

Does anybody get the impression that despite what was said, school records played some role in the results?

For instance, I’m aware of a teacher who consistently gets between 70% and 80% HIs/H2s out of his LC subject classes. This year they got 60%. Importantly, however, the national average in that subject is c. 20%. Or would the schools which annually get around the national average have got c.60% in this year’s results also?

School records probably played no role . Except some convoluted algorithm of JC grades

You can see that teacher was dragged down to the national average. A school below average probably got bumped up or allowed to keep an optimistic grade prediction.

RealJohn

gaiscioch wrote: »

Does anybody get the impression that despite what was said, school records played some role in the results?

For instance, I’m aware of a teacher who consistently gets between 70% and 80% HIs/H2s out of his LC subject classes. This year they got 60%. Importantly, however, the national average in that subject is c. 20%. Or would the schools which annually get around the national average have got c.60% in this year’s results also?

I would say that on the whole, most teachers probably weren't outrageously generous in their invented grades, so overall, there probably wasn't that much downgrading going on. If I'm right about that, a drop from 70% H1/H2s to 60% is a pretty significant drop (depending on how many students you're talking about) for any individual teacher, so no, I would think that the school records played little part in the process.
They should have though.

keoclassic

Treppen wrote: »

I admire your faith in the checks and balances.

Did the checks and balances work?

What do you think?

Treppen

keoclassic wrote: »

What do you think?

It's not a matter of thinking. The evidence is there.
I've seen it in my own school where individual students were bumped down for no reason.

Saying the word 'checks and balances' doesn't mean anything. There were checks and balances on the Titanic.

Treppen

I'm interested to know how it played out between the company and the department.

Was it a case of 'here's your calculated grades good luck and send on the bill'.

Or

Here's a number of scenarios, which do you want?

Millionaire only not

Very quiet on boards about the leaving cert ! Everyone sick of it I guess

Quantum Erasure

RealJohn wrote: »

I think it has nothing to do with me. I’m a teacher. I don’t work for the CAO.

That about sums it up

Zookey123

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Very quiet on boards about the leaving cert ! Everyone sick of it I guess

Wait until tommorow when the CAO round 1 offers go out. Id say it'll be mayhem all across the country.

wingnut

Treppen wrote: »

School records probably played no role . Except some convoluted algorithm of JC grades

You can see that teacher was dragged down to the national average. A school below average probably got bumped up or allowed to keep an optimistic grade prediction.

Exactly, a curve was applied to all schools..The alternative was to profile schools but this became politicaly contentious so it was not done. With no school profiling every school was levelled to national averages hence grinds schools lost out bug time. That was the call and it was political.

I graded looking at subject averages in previous years and not one of my grades was altered.

Quantum Erasure

Zookey123 wrote: »

Wait until tommorow when the CAO round 1 offers go out. Id say it'll be mayhem all across the country.

Popcorn.gif

Millionaire only not

Ya there’s something fishy going on were all these grades that were down graded maybe some were justified!
I believe yeats college in Galway are sending a team of solicitors to Dublin , then again most of the solicitors going probably have sons or daughters there .
Personally after sending our teenager there for 2 years I’d imagine she would have been class ranked near the bottom !
Thankfully we found a better school to repeat she has over 600 so cheers terry happy hunting for your points !

Chiparus

Zookey123 wrote: »

Wait until tommorow when the CAO round 1 offers go out. Id say it'll be mayhem all across the country.

There is a reason why they are being released at 2 pm on a Friday.

Treppen

wingnut wrote: »

Exactly, a curve was applied to all schools..The alternative was to profile schools but this became politicaly contentious so it was not done. With no school profiling every school was levelled to national averages hence grinds schools lost out bug time. That was the call and it was political.

I graded looking at subject averages in previous years and not one of my grades was altered.

I think you got it in one.
Once a school realises that they can push the teachers h1s around by 2 ways.
Ensure your top students are protected/advantaged .
Ensure teachers who grade a class below the national subject average get 'encouraged' to reconsider .

Pursefan

wingnut wrote: »

Exactly, a curve was applied to all schools..The alternative was to profile schools but this became politicaly contentious so it was not done. With no school profiling every school was levelled to national averages hence grinds schools lost out bug time. That was the call and it was political.

I graded looking at subject averages in previous years and not one of my grades was altered.

I did exactly the same and not one grade changed

Inspector Coptoor

wingnut wrote: »

Exactly, a curve was applied to all schools..The alternative was to profile schools but this became politicaly contentious so it was not done. With no school profiling every school was levelled to national averages hence grinds schools lost out bug time. That was the call and it was political.

I graded looking at subject averages in previous years and not one of my grades was altered.

But what if you teach in a school with a track record going back years with 3-4x the number of H1s as the national subject average?

For example, last year we got 14 H1s out of 39 students.
This year we predicted 17 out of 42.
We were given 10.

We have 7 students who scored over 90% in so many assessments over 2 years and now they have been literally flattened by the curve.

It’s a blunt instrument and has shafted my students

zetor 4911

wingnut wrote: »

Exactly, a curve was applied to all schools..The alternative was to profile schools but this became politicaly contentious so it was not done. With no school profiling every school was levelled to national averages hence grinds schools lost out bug time. That was the call and it was political.

I graded looking at subject averages in previous years and not one of my grades was altered.

If a school didn't fit the curve they then pulled down the grades to get it to fit but my question is how did they select the students to bump down? It would appear that all the students in that school were not bumped down to correct the curve.

joebloggs32

Chiparus wrote: »

There is a reason why they are being released at 2 pm on a Friday.

Liveline probably have some kids on standby

s1ippy

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Six-Cork-students-celebrate-achieving-maximum-Leaving-Cert-points--b3156c41-9af3-4e34-ac2e-38a464063461-ds

How does this make any sense.

scrubs33

Have the Dept/SEC/CAO managed to pull off the impossible? I’m not hearing too much disappointment from former 6th years here(middle of the road small town school) A good few have been in touch to say they are very happy with their offers. Management also happy as are staff in the main. Small sample I know but an outsider would say that both Monday and today have been very good days for the ‘process’. I’ve blocked everything that happened from March to August however...