Predicted Grades Appeals

Treppen

Millionaire only not wrote: »

How the hell do u think the leaving cert could have gone ahead! they’ll be lucky to get schools opened next month.

100 odd students divided into different rooms not that difficult to social distance . That's just for the popular subjects.

am_zarathustra

Does anyone have a copy of the changes released by the DOE earlier, they have disappeared off the website

Stewie Griffin

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Does anyone have a copy of the changes released by the DOE earlier, they have disappeared off the website

Hope this works

am_zarathustra

Thanks so much, really appreciate that. I wonder why it was taken down

Newbie20

Millionaire only not wrote: »

How the hell do u think the leaving cert could have gone ahead! they’ll be lucky to get schools opened next month.

How the hell do you think they couldn’t? In a weeks time there will be schools all over the country packed with students in a time where the cases are quite high. During the summer there was feck all cases and they only needed to facilitate one year. Could have easily been done if the will was there. They succumbed to media pressure was the problem.

JDMC2

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They succumbed to media pressure was the problem.

...and the same will happen when the LC results come out. A minority will not get what they felt they deserved (happens every year) but this year they can blame someone else (teachers) for not getting what mammy was expecting! They will call on Emma and Joe to create a media storm to get rid of Little Larry’s standardised grade and take the teachers grade. Alternatively, Joe will call for every student to be allowed choose whatever college place they want!

Mardy Bum

JDMC2 wrote: »

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...and the same will happen when the LC results come out. A minority will not get what they felt they deserved (happens every year) but this year they can blame someone else (teachers) for not getting what mammy was expecting! They will call on Emma and Joe to create a media storm to get rid of Little Larry’s standardised grade and take the teachers grade. Alternatively, Joe will call for every student to be allowed choose whatever college place they want!

The last option is all things considered the best option. At the end of first year, exams should dictate who continues the degree. Let the student take the risk. The French do it like that. It also stops teachers being blamed.

amacca

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The last option is all things considered the best option. At the end of first year, exams should dictate who continues the degree. Let the student take the risk. The French do it like that. It also stops teachers being blamed.

I agree ... send them all off to miramar:D

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9fTEGag00og

thomasdylan

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The last option is all things considered the best option. At the end of first year, exams should dictate who continues the degree. Let the student take the risk. The French do it like that. It also stops teachers being blamed.

This is completely crazy. What happens when there are a few thousnad students in 1st year of law, engineering, pharmacy and medicine In Dublin.

This is trying to pass off any responisbility to 3rd level institutions.

am_zarathustra

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The last option is all things considered the best option. At the end of first year, exams should dictate who continues the degree. Let the student take the risk. The French do it like that. It also stops teachers being blamed.

Colleges have nowhere near the resources, lecturers, lab space or infrastructure to deal with that. We chronically under-fund colleges, most of their cash comes from private grants not from the state, they are certainly not in a position to be responsible for a mess the government made.

Mardy Bum

thomasdylan wrote: »

This is completely crazy. What happens when there are a few thousnad students in 1st year of law, engineering, pharmacy and medicine In Dublin.

This is trying to pass off any responisbility to 3rd level institutions.

It is about time responsibility was passed off. Secondary school teachers should not be dictating what students get to study in college this year! More generally, secondary school teachers should not have to confine their teaching to empty exam questions for fear that they will be scolded for not preparing students for an exam. We should be teaching disciplines distilled into subjects. Most teachers teach exams (myself included) and it is a crying shame.

am_zarathustra

Mardy Bum wrote: »

It is about time responsibility was passed off. Secondary school teachers should not be dictating what students get to study in college this year! More generally, secondary school teachers should not have to confine their teaching to empty exam questions for fear that they will be scolded for not preparing students for an exam. We should be teaching disciplines distilled into subjects. Most teachers teach exams (myself included) and it is a crying shame.

I teach my subject, my students enjoy their classes and the subjects. They need to be assessed in some way to check ability. A good teacher should be able to engender interest and help students develop skills that will allow them to achieve in the exams.

There is absolutely zero point sending a kid with poor maths skills into an engineering degree and someone with a poor memory should not be a medical doctor. Ability and work ethic matter, to say they don't is just naive. Colleges have a certain number of places and the CAO is the pre agreed way of filling these places. It is the department of educations remit to assess knowledge acquired in secondary education and to formalise it in a way that can allow colleges to assess likely future performance. The new ministry means that third level is not even within the remit of the department of education now, how on earth could they be responsible for the mess made by secondary education.

am_zarathustra

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The last option is all things considered the best option. At the end of first year, exams should dictate who continues the degree. Let the student take the risk. The French do it like that. It also stops teachers being blamed.

And the French don't do this. They have the baccalaureate, elitist college as per the grandes écoles which lead to a ruling elite and one of the highest failure rates at third level mixed with chronic under-funding. They were looking at our system a couple of years ago.

Mardy Bum

am_zarathustra wrote: »

And the French don't do this. They have the baccalaureate, elitist college as per the grandes écoles which lead to a ruling elite and one of the highest failure rates at third level mixed with chronic under-funding. They were looking at our system a couple of years ago.

The Bacc is not like the point system. Students can access their course but at the end of first year, students must do very well in an exam to continue. This is a fairer way of doing it than the proposed measures this year. It will be up to students to consider their own ability and motivation.

am_zarathustra

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The Bacc is not like the point system. Students can access their course but at the end of first year, students must do very well in an exam to continue. This is a fairer way of doing it than the proposed measures this year. It will be up to students to consider their own ability and motivation.

So they have attrition rates in the first year or two just like here? 30% of students failed General Science in UCD a few years ago as points dropped to just over 350. This is simply not enough to be successful in a course like this so failure rates went through the roof in the first year. Why did these students not know they were not able for this course? This is premised on a 17/18 year old knowing their ability in Honours Maths better than an experienced teacher who has marked the exams. I don't think we should demean our profession to that level. It's a mess, but general entry is not the solution.

My course was capped at 15. The reason being it was an excellent course but required handson training and supervision. That is the number my department was set up for and to be honest the labs and tutor rooms were tight. Half of the students who got in didn't finish, it was a difficult course. Under your system I would imagine hundreds would be admitted, there would be no room for them, never mind staff to teach them. Other course would be empty.

Universities and colleges are partially, sometimes largely, privately funded through grants. Academics also have their own work to do outside of the work of supervising and lecturing. Would you like Kingston Mills to stop working on rapid antibody testing so he can lecture 5 times as many students? Or Luke O Neill can stop supervising his labs works on cytokine storms so he can lecture a few hundred students, only 100 of which probably have the ability to be there. I don't think you understand the funding structures or practical infrastructural difficulties that you "solution" would cause. This mess had absolutely nothing to do with our third level institutes.

Mardy Bum

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I teach my subject, my students enjoy their classes and the subjects. They need to be assessed in some way to check ability. A good teacher should be able to engender interest and help students develop skills that will allow them to achieve in the exams.

There is absolutely zero point sending a kid with poor maths skills into an engineering degree and someone with a poor memory should not be a medical doctor. Ability and work ethic matter, to say they don't is just naive. Colleges have a certain number of places and the CAO is the pre agreed way of filling these places. It is the department of educations remit to assess knowledge acquired in secondary education and to formalise it in a way that can allow colleges to assess likely future performance. The new ministry means that third level is not even within the remit of the department of education now, how on earth could they be responsible for the mess made by secondary education.

The Leaving Certificate is vital for a healthy second level system. However, it has been corrupted by the college entry system. 30% is now considered a pass because it can accrue points. Student decide to "drop" to OL in a subject like English or Irish so that they can stumble their way to a H7 in maths whilst struggling to write a coherent essay which they need to do in college.

Students doing "exam papers" for half of sixth year is not preparing them for anything in life except an exam. I am a huge supporter of the LC but college entry should be left to colleges and it should be funded properly.

amacca

am_zarathustra wrote: »

. The new ministry means that third level is not even within the remit of the department of education now, how on earth could they be responsible for the mess made by secondary education.

I dont necessarily disagree with your points but i think a bit more clarity on who made the mess would be good

I dont remember teachers calling for predicted grades....i remember a govt like a duck in thunder bum rushed into it by the likes of ciara kelly et al who wanted "certainty" for students which ironically they have anything but now

A bit more drilling down into exactly who or what sector(s) are most responsible for the mess wouldnt go astray imho

am_zarathustra

But it currently isn't. College, university and all tertiary level is now a different ministry, a different Department. Why would it be up to one ministry to judge the outcomes of another. Third level is currently in a worse state in Ireland than Second level. Secondary education happens in secondary schools. That's like saying employers should judge the ability of degree holders not the colleges, that doesn't make sense.

We need more straightforward paths into apprenticeships, hopefully Solas will work on this. Too many college places is an issue.

I don't do exam papers for half of 6th year, we often get sidetracked into conversations about practical implications of the subjects. They often come to class with questions about something they have read, or saw on youtube, or someone told them. They get great grades, they love the subject by and large, they feel a sense of accomplishment from learning to use their brains in a different way and a good proportion have gone on to study college courses in the area. If a teacher chooses to spend a quarter of the time they have senior kids doing exam papers then that is their business, that is your own personal choice not the fault of the college for not doing matriculation.

joe40

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The Leaving Certificate is vital for a healthy second level system. However, it has been corrupted by the college entry system. 30% is now considered a pass because it can accrue points. Student decide to "drop" to OL in a subject like English or Irish so that they can stumble their way to a H7 in maths whilst struggling to write a coherent essay which they need to do in college.

Students doing "exam papers" for half of sixth year is not preparing them for anything in life except an exam. I am a huge supporter of the LC but college entry should be left to colleges and it should be funded properly.

Likewise I agree, standardised, unbiased assessment is important and while the LC is far from perfect, it is fair in that everyone is assessed at the same level.
As for University entry I don't think it should just depend on LC points. Some courses would lend themselves to interview as well.
My Daughter is hoping to do medicine,only 5th year yet, so will apply to CAO and UCAS ( UK entry)
For CAO just get the points along with hpat sorted.

For UCAS there has to be a personal statement with evidence of work experience/volunteering in caring proffession, or at least evidence that you know what medicine involves. There will also be Rigorous interview process.

There should be a minimum level of LC attainment but there are better ways to match students to courses than purely exam results.
Radiography for example is massive points but purely because high numbers applying. It would be better to have lower points but interview also to get best candidate.

am_zarathustra

amacca wrote: »

I dont necessarily disagree with your points but i think a bit more clarity on who made the mess would be good

I dont remember teachers calling for predicted grades....i remember a govt like a duck in thunder bum rushed into it by the likes of ciara kelly et al who wanted "certainty" for students which ironically they have anything but now

A bit more drilling down into exactly who or what sector(s) are most responsible for the mess wouldnt go astray imho

I would say it is very clearly the Department of Education and the minister at the time capitulating to pressure. Look, it was a very tough situation for everyone but there is an undercurrent in every conversation pushing blame onto tertiary education in Ireland, the worst funded and least equipped part of our education system. Predicted grades are sketchy, we all know there will be teachers who either unintentionally (lack of experience) or intentionally (possible under pressure) will change grades, but given how far down the road we are now it's the best we've got. Teachers have a better grasp on students abilities than the students themselves. How many kids do you think write down medicine number one every year and don't even break the 500 mark?

Ekerot

Where do I register for the Appeals thing?
I keep clicking the registration button at the self service portal but it doesn't seem to be working at the moment

am_zarathustra

joe40 wrote: »

Likewise I agree, standardised, unbiased assessment is important and while the LC is far from perfect, it is fair in that everyone is assessed at the same level.
As for University entry I don't think it should just depend on LC points. Some courses would lend themselves to interview as well.
My Daughter is hoping to do medicine,only 5th year yet, so will apply to CAO and UCAS ( UK entry)
For CAO just get the points along with hpat sorted.

For UCAS there has to be a personal statement with evidence of work experience/volunteering in caring proffession, or at least evidence that you know what medicine involves. There will also be Rigorous interview process.

There should be a minimum level of LC attainment but there are better ways to match students to courses than purely exam results.
Radiography for example is massive points but purely because high numbers applying. It would be better to have lower points but interview also to get best candidate.

I completely agree with this in the caring professions, a base level of ability (quite high for a lot of these courses) and an interview is a brilliant option. My only concern is that there would be paid prep involved, I know it's impossible to remove the advantage of birth though however.

A large number of medicine graduates do not stay in medicine, showing an interest in the caring side and an understanding of the personal and mental toll it can take would certainly be an improvement. I hope over time the HPAT ect will be expanded. Definitely a step in the right direction. Good luck to your daughter! Tough road but sounds like she has a good plan in place

soso02

We all know how this will pan out.

9:01 on Monday the 7th a certain doctor will be calling for standardisation to be scrapped, and she will get her way. Meanwhile teachers who were realistic and fair in their predictions will be lambasted.

Colleges are autonomous bodies, would it be too late for them to organise some kind of entrance exam ? Even JC results would be better than crude estimates.

With respect to the exams in November, does anyone think the provisions in place for the class of 2021 will be extended to the class of 2020 ?

am_zarathustra

soso02 wrote: »

We all know how this will pan out.

9:01 on Monday the 7th a certain doctor will be calling for standardisation to be scrapped, and she will get her way. Meanwhile teachers who were realistic and fair in their predictions will be lambasted.

Colleges are autonomous bodies, would it be too late for them to organise some kind of entrance exam ? Even JC results would be better than crude estimates.

With respect to the exams in November, does anyone think the provisions in place for the class of 2021 will be extended to the class of 2020 ?

Colleges don't have the resources full stop, they wouldn't even have enough staff to correct the entrance exams. I am hoping the algorithm heavily weights JC results.

I completely agree with your assessment though, happened in England, Scotland and Wales.

The only thing I would love to know is I anecdotally heard of results being sent back to schools to be redone, as in obviously inflated so they were told to look through them again. It was second had info but I wonder is it true?

Mardy Bum

am_zarathustra wrote: »

But it currently isn't. College, university and all tertiary level is now a different ministry, a different Department. Why would it be up to one ministry to judge the outcomes of another. Third level is currently in a worse state in Ireland than Second level. Secondary education happens in secondary schools. That's like saying employers should judge the ability of degree holders not the colleges, that doesn't make sense.

We need more straightforward paths into apprenticeships, hopefully Solas will work on this. Too many college places is an issue.

I don't do exam papers for half of 6th year, we often get sidetracked into conversations about practical implications of the subjects. They often come to class with questions about something they have read, or saw on youtube, or someone told them. They get great grades, they love the subject by and large, they feel a sense of accomplishment from learning to use their brains in a different way and a good proportion have gone on to study college courses in the area. If a teacher chooses to spend a quarter of the time they have senior kids doing exam papers then that is their business, that is your own personal choice not the fault of the college for not doing matriculation.

Just read the many ESRI reports on the Leaving Certificate if you want to get an idea about the wider picture.

The calculated grades will be shambolic. Whether it results in the department just giving the teacher's grade (which have been wildly inflated in numerous countries) or they use the algorithm to mitigate teacher bias (which has been proven to not work in numerous countries), students will lose out. In the first case, the teachers who predicted objectively will be punished as well as their students. In the second case, high achieving students from certain schools will lose out.

The only equitable solution for the entire cohort is to allow students to choose and fund the courses like they have had to do in England and Scotland as a result of overinflated grades.

joe40

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I would say it is very clearly the Department of Education and the minister at the time capitulating to pressure. Look, it was a very tough situation for everyone but there is an undercurrent in every conversation pushing blame onto tertiary education in Ireland, the worst funded and least equipped part of our education system. Predicted grades are sketchy, we all know there will be teachers who either unintentionally (lack of experience) or intentionally (possible under pressure) will change grades, but given how far down the road we are now it's the best we've got. Teachers have a better grasp on students abilities than the students themselves. How many kids do you think write down medicine number one every year and don't even break the 500 mark?

I had to predict grades for pupils this year but because I work in the north I had results from module exams. These were externally set and marked so strong back up evidence but even then you are still worried about getting it wrong.

On the numbers applying. Do CAO have figures for numbers that don't get their first or even second choice. I would have thought people are sensible when applying, so would not apply for really high points courses unless they had a realistic chance of getting those points.

It would be interesting to see the spread of points achieved by medicine applicants. I think you have to be in the top 10 or 20% of the hpat to have a reasonable chance.

joe40

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Just read the many ESRI reports on the Leaving Certificate if you want to get an idea about the wider picture.

The calculated grades will be shambolic. Whether it results in the department just giving the teacher's grade (which have been wildly inflated in numerous countries) or they use the algorithm to mitigate teacher bias (which has been proven to not work in numerous countries), students will lose out. In the first case, the teachers who predicted objectively will be punished as well as their students. In the second case, high achieving students from certain schools will lose out.

The only equitable solution for the entire cohort is to allow students to choose and fund the courses like they have had to do in England and Scotland as a result of overinflated grades.

Queens in Belfast have said that some students may not get their course this year. Apparently some courses were filled after clearing with the original grades. So now that the teacher grades are used some kids now meet requirements but may have to wait a year.

am_zarathustra

joe40 wrote: »

I had to predict grades for pupils this year but because I work in the north I had results from module exams. These were externally set and marked so strong back up evidence but even then you are still worried about getting it wrong.

On the numbers applying I do CAO have figures for numbers that don't get their first or even second choice. I would have thought people are sensible when applying, so would not apply for really high points courses unless they had a realistic chance of getting those points.

It would be interesting to see the spread of points achieved by medicine applicants. I think you have to be in the top 10 or 20% of the hpat to have a reasonable chance.

I was jealous of the schools up north and across the sea having the exam board results from the kids already. I would have loved it for my own piece of mind. Can I ask, how did the calculated grades compare to what you gave, if you don;t mind sharing?

am_zarathustra

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Just read the many ESRI reports on the Leaving Certificate if you want to get an idea about the wider picture.

The calculated grades will be shambolic. Whether it results in the department just giving the teacher's grade (which have been wildly inflated in numerous countries) or they use the algorithm to mitigate teacher bias (which has been proven to not work in numerous countries), students will lose out. In the first case, the teachers who predicted objectively will be punished as well as their students. In the second case, high achieving students from certain schools will lose out.

The only equitable solution for the entire cohort is to allow students to choose and fund the courses like they have had to do in England and Scotland as a result of overinflated grades.

You can't let everyone into whatever course they want as we do not have the resources in tertiary education to actually teach them. I don't know why this is difficult to understand. Currently up to 25% of places will now be available to Irish students that would normally go to international students. If you want a high points course this might be the best year to be going for it. But colleges can't take everyone.

joe40

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I was jealous of the schools up north and across the sea having the exam board results from the kids already. I would have loved it for my own piece of mind. Can I ask, how did the calculated grades compare to what you gave, if you don;t mind sharing?

I had an AS chemistry class which is the first year of A level. All the kids were strong at GCSE minimum grade B to get in.
I had about 3 out of 13 predicted an A which I thought was reasonable that was downgraded to 1 pupil. Since the exam board had no evidence of the pupils that was purely based on the algorithm. They used my ranking but took most kids down one grade. One pupil was downgraded from a C to a U (ungraded) which was despicable. May have been a mistake but I'm still glad it was quickly reversed.

It is very difficult with the middle of the road kids. A typical C candidate could work really hard in the last 6 weeks and get a B or also slack off and easily drop to a D or E.

It was a horrible situation, but all predicted grades had to go through school management, as in the South, so our Principal was happy with teacher predictions.

How college pans out is the big issue now. Lack of foreign students may free up places but will have terrible effect on funding.