Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The former DUP leader described unionist serial catholic-killers as 'counter terrorists'. All the Unionist leaders attended gun-runner Willie Frazer's funeral and have attended the funerals of some of the most depraved killers ever to have walked the streets.

You haven't a leg to stand on when it comes to moralising over the character of your politicians.

I am not moralising. And I don’t totally disagree with your post. I am not the one in denial here.

Whilst what you say is terrible. Remember that Sinn Fein leaders were not just going to the funerals of ‘depraved serial Protestant killers’ many of them were/are actually the ‘depraved serial Protestant killers’
......my community just finds it shocking that so many people vote for them. That’s all

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh, like nationalists don't bat an eye when the BA is celebrated, or the RUC or when Loyalists are consulted on what the DUP should do etc etc
Only downcows wee people 'feel hurt'...did you not know that?

Francie. I recognise all sides are hurting and have been hurt And much to your denial that also includes all sides south of the border. And indeed other minorities like Roma, travelling community,etc

It’s republicans on here that see only one side hurting.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I am not sure what you mean when you say they are the most represented single denomination in the dup. Where do you get that stat????

I mean that there are more Free Presbyterian members in the DUP than there are members of any other church, Downcow. I thought that was clear.

I'm sure I could root out a more recent source, but just for the sake of making the point, as it gives quite a thorough breakdown;

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/inside-the-dup-domination-by-free-presbyterian-church-and-orange-order-laid-bare-30330698.html

Tell me, do you realise that most unionist voters in ni thinks the dup connection to fundamentalist religion pales into insignificance to Sinn Féin’s connection to sectarian psychopathic killers. Unionist still just can’t understand how ordinary nationalists bring themselves to vote for a party so linked you those who murdered their family and friends.
I have had experiences and encounters that help me understand, but I meet so many who are hurt to their very being when they see so many supporting those that killed and maimed their loved ones.

Our recent history in ni is tragic and we have to try to find empathy for each other

The thing is Downcow to many Nationalists, it was the very British state you wish us to remain part of that were the sectarian psychopathic killers of our friends and family members. Nationalists still can't understand why anyone would want to remain part of a state that would treat its own citizens like that.

We can all paint our stories of victimhood, it could easily be argued that Paisley caused as much death and damage as any other single person in the North, albeit from the pulpit or podium, yet the DUP continue to receive as many votes as SF, so I'd find the outrage quite hypocritical. I honestly don't believe most people in the North vote for the party they favour, but rather vote for the party with the best chance of stopping another party. It's a sad state of affairs, and I'm glad younger generations seem to be growing past this faster than you or I.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie. I recognise all sides are hurting and have been hurt And much to your denial that also includes all sides south of the border. And indeed other minorities like Roma, travelling community,etc

It’s republicans on here that see only one side hurting.

I don't mention it because it goes without saying that all sides are suffering.. That is why I keep talkig about truth recovery to try and bring some closure to ALL.

Your constant slips reveal that you have a severe victimhood complex, something I said after first engaging with you. I haven't changed my mind.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I mean that there are more Free Presbyterian members in the DUP than there are members of any other church, Downcow. I thought that was clear.

I'm sure I could root out a more recent source, but just for the sake of making the point, as it gives quite a thorough breakdown;

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/inside-the-dup-domination-by-free-presbyterian-church-and-orange-order-laid-bare-30330698.html




The thing is Downcow to many Nationalists, it was the very British state you wish us to remain part of that were the sectarian psychopathic killers of our friends and family members. Nationalists still can't understand why anyone would want to remain part of a state that would treat its own citizens like that.

We can all paint our stories of victimhood, it could easily be argued that Paisley caused as much death and damage as any other single person in the North, albeit from the pulpit or podium, yet the DUP continue to receive as many votes as SF, so I'd find the outrage quite hypocritical. I honestly don't believe most people in the North vote for the party they favour, but rather vote for the party with the best chance of stopping another party. It's a sad state of affairs, and I'm glad younger generations seem to be growing past this faster than you or I.

I don’t disagree with too much of what you are saying there.
I won’t argue with the stats but of all the dup members I know, not one is a free p. Wells and Donaldson are the Teo reared fairly close to me and they are Baptist and Presbyterian. But I guess someone must have stats

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I don’t disagree with too much of what you are saying there.
I won’t argue with the stats but of all the dup members I know, not one is a free p. Wells and Donaldson are the Teo reared fairly close to me and they are Baptist and Presbyterian. But I guess someone must have stats

Are you denying that both the UUP and DUP allowed their religious beliefs to influence them in power?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't mention it because it goes without saying that all sides are suffering.. That is why I keep talkig about truth recovery to try and bring some closure to ALL.

Your constant slips reveal that you have a severe victimhood complex, something I said after first engaging with you. I haven't changed my mind.

Francie I have enough self perception to accept that may well be true.
I was reared in area where the ira waged a murderous sectarian campaign, supported by burning and intimation by the republican youth, celebrated in gaa clubhouses by the wolf tonnes etc, and swept over by the SDLP, not to mention the odd local priest being outed as ira men
I have friends and neighbours who live day and daily with grief or physical pain, not to mention the trauma of remembering how some friends were tortured for 3 days before assignation.
I do think the next generation is a little detached from it but not completely.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you denying that both the UUP and DUP allowed their religious beliefs to influence them in power?

Absolutely not denying it.
Some used their beliefs to influence them positively and some used them to influence them negatively.

I do absolutely believe that all politicians have got to bring their belief system to bear on their decisions and to influence them.
I would think they were hypocrites if they did not. We can then vote them in or not.

Is your implication that you think they should detach from their belief system

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie I have enough self perception to accept that may well be true.
I was reared in area where the ira waged a murderous sectarian campaign, supported by burning and intimation by the republican youth, celebrated in gaa clubhouses by the wolf tonnes etc, and swept over by the SDLP, not to mention the odd local priest being outed as ira men
I have friends and neighbours who live day and daily with grief or physical pain, not to mention the trauma of remembering how some friends were tortured for 3 days before assignation.
I do think the next generation is a little detached from it but not completely.

What 'area'? Let's see how sectarian it was, care to back up that assertion? How many were killed just because of their religion?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Absolutely not denying it.
Some used their beliefs to influence them positively and some used them to influence them negatively.

I do absolutely believe that all politicians have got to bring their belief system to bear on their decisions and to influence them.
I would think they were hypocrites if they did not. We can then vote them in or not.

Is your implication that you think they should detach from their belief system

When you 'force' your religious belief on others that is a sectarian bigoted act.

That is what the DUP did with LGBT legislation. Using the petition of concerns to ensure their rights were not given.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I don’t disagree with too much of what you are saying there.
I won’t argue with the stats but of all the dup members I know, not one is a free p. Wells and Donaldson are the Teo reared fairly close to me and they are Baptist and Presbyterian. But I guess someone must have stats

Of any paper in the North likely to have an agenda bar perhaps the Newsletter, I'd say you could take it for granted that the Bel Tel won't be printing an unfounded anti DUP agenda, Downcow.

Surely you remember the fact it was more headline in the North that Arlene Foster wasn't a Free P?!

You can't think of one? Paisley Junior? Nelson McCausland? Sammy Wilson? Nigel Dodds? Edwin Poots? Mervyn Storey? Just off the top of my head.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When you 'force' your religious belief on others that is a sectarian bigoted act.

That is what the DUP did with LGBT legislation. Using the petition of concerns to ensure their rights were not given.

I completely agree.
Tbh the dup are closer to Roman Catholic theology that to the main Protestant churches. Would you agree?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Of any paper in the North likely to have an agenda bar perhaps the Newsletter, I'd say you could take it for granted that the Bel Tel won't be printing an unfounded anti DUP agenda, Downcow.

Surely you remember the fact it was more headline in the North that Arlene Foster wasn't a Free P?!

You can't think of one? Paisley Junior? Nelson McCausland? Sammy Wilson? Nigel Dodds? Edwin Poots? Mervyn Storey? Just off the top of my head.

Clearly many of the old guard are members of free p church. And I don’t want to underestimate my annoyance that such a big unionist party follows such fundamentalist beliefs.
But I think it’s changing The party has not had a free p at the helm for well over a decade.

I would also be surprised if you are correct that sammy is a free p. Not too many free ps get caught on nude beaches they are far to crafty to get caught

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Clearly many of the old guard are members of free p church. And I don’t want to underestimate my annoyance that such a big unionist party follows such fundamentalist beliefs.
But I think it’s changing The party has not had a free p at the helm for well over a decade.

I would also be surprised if you are correct that sammy is a free p. Not too many free ps get caught on nude beaches they are far to crafty to get caught

I could be mistaken on Sammy the Streaker, though it wouldn't be the first time someone espousing a highly fundamentalist, religiously conservative type has been outed as a hypocrite.

That being said, when Arlene is being held up as progressive just because she's the first party leader who isn't a YE creationism evangelist, I'd say there's still a ways to go before you can really describe them as changing.

You say the Old Guard, I'd say pretty much all of the big hitters in the party. Hard to point out too many significant names in the party who could be described as changing or progressive, especially as two pointed out (Jeffrey Donaldson and Arlene Foster) were UUP members who left because of their opposition to the GFA, and the other (Jim Wells) resigned from the National Trust only recently because he had issues with Gay Pride.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I could be mistaken on Sammy the Streaker, though it wouldn't be the first time someone espousing a highly fundamentalist, religiously conservative type has been outed as a hypocrite.

That being said, when Arlene is being held up as progressive just because she's the first party leader who isn't a YE creationism evangelist, I'd say there's still a ways to go before you can really describe them as changing.

You say the Old Guard, I'd say pretty much all of the big hitters in the party. Hard to point out too many significant names in the party who could be described as changing or progressive, especially as two pointed out (Jeffrey Donaldson and Arlene Foster) were UUP members who left because of their opposition to the GFA, and the other (Jim Wells) resigned from the National Trust only recently because he had issues with Gay Pride.

The last two party leaders were not free Ps
But I don’t disagree that they need to change faster.
Sinn Fein are starting to decrease the number of their big hitters who are sectarian murderers, so yes, dup should decrease their fundamentalists.

The deeper problem is who controls them in the background. I think dup has weakened the control of a fundamentalist church , but I think all are agreed that Sinn Fein are still strongly controlled by a sectarian murder gang.

Oh for a day when fundamentalist religion or sectarian murder gangs have zero influence on the two parties that rule NI

That is one area we have failed miserably

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

The last two party leaders were not free Ps
But I don’t disagree that they need to change faster.
Sinn Fein are starting to decrease the number of their big hitters who are sectarian murderers, so yes, dup should decrease their fundamentalists.

The deeper problem is who controls them in the background. I think dup has weakened the control of a fundamentalist church , but I think all are agreed that Sinn Fein are still strongly controlled by a sectarian murder gang.

Oh for a day when fundamentalist religion or sectarian murder gangs have zero influence on the two parties that rule NI

That is one area we have failed miserably

Peter Robinson was a former Free Presbyterian, and afterwards he was still from a fundamentalist, evangelical church, Downcow.

Splitting hairs, like I said before, the old guard of both parties are all pretty long in the tooth, and younger generations are a damn sight less bogged down in our historic distrust than you or I. I'd love to see an ushering in of more normalised politics back home, but too many afraid to change before the other side do still hanging on.

I know if I was back living in Fermanagh, my vote would still go to Michelle Gildernew, even though Matthew Beaumont of the Alliance Party would better represent my views. Essentially I wouldn't be voting for Michelle, I'd be voting to stop Tom Elliot, who despite his UUP background I've always found far more akin to the DUP than a typical UUP member, let alone an actually progressive one like Mike Nesbitt. Far too much of the vote from the generations that lived through the conflict is decided in this way, and we still make up the majority of the actively voting electorate, hence the polarisation of votes towards DUP/SF.

As we all kick the bucket, maybe the place has a chance at normality, whether part of the UK or a united Ireland.

Sunny Disposition

Controversy over Heaney’s image being used to promote the celebrations, again the deep division about the existence of the NO state comes up.
It’s a disaster for unionism, the whole centenary is exposing how underwhelming support for partition and the link to the UK is.
It would seem very unlikely a State can continue with little support, I just hope it doesn’t descend into violence as a Catholic majority emerges. I think it probably won’t, but 2020s are going to be a very significant decade.
Unionism seems almost defeated and quite depressed, there’s a strong feeling that Catholics are getting all the breaks.

Junkyard Tom

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Unionism seems almost defeated and quite depressed

And Unionism has proved itself incapable of outreach. Gavin Robinson was trying to claim that Seamus Heaney was supportive the flag protesters and partition just this week and earlier in the year insisted everyone in the north was British.

DUP types simply cannot contain their hatred.

Capt'n Midnight

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

And Unionism has proved itself incapable of outreach. Gavin Robinson was trying to claim that Seamus Heaney was supportive the flag protesters and partition just this week and earlier in the year insisted everyone in the north was British.

DUP types simply cannot contain their hatred.

"What we have we hold" it's a siege mentality,


Be advised, my passport's green
No glass of ours was ever raised
To toast the Queen.
- Seamus Heaney

Capt'n Midnight

downcow wrote: »

Due to brexit I have been watching RTÉ news a little this week.
Culturally very different, but I have found it interesting.
Tonight I heard of the burning of cork. I was quite taken aback. I had never heard of it. Shocking.

It was about the same time Churchill was in favour of the RAF were gassing the Kurds.

Using the RAF was cheaper than keeping a full army there due to the demobilisation after WWI. Demob also explains why Black and Tans were used instead of regular army units.

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Controversy over Heaney’s image being used to promote the celebrations, again the deep division about the existence of the NO state comes up.
It’s a disaster for unionism, the whole centenary is exposing how underwhelming support for partition and the link to the UK is.
It would seem very unlikely a State can continue with little support, I just hope it doesn’t descend into violence as a Catholic majority emerges. I think it probably won’t, but 2020s are going to be a very significant decade.
Unionism seems almost defeated and quite depressed, there’s a strong feeling that Catholics are getting all the breaks.

Unfortunately sunny you are doing what so many do who detest that there continues to be next to no support for a UI.
You are re-sectarianising the debate.
In you post you are interchanging nationality with religion. Thankfully more and more of those from a traditional catholic background are throwing their weight behind a NI within the UK.

I find it really unhelpful to keep linking religion to nationality. It also sort of admiring defeat by UI in that young people have less and less interest in religion so if that’s what you are pining your hopes on then your bate.

Ask yourself why your post began with reference to nationality but then moved to religion.
It should be clear for everyone that republicans do that because they know every poll shows zero increase in desire for UI but there is a clear year on year increase in those who are from a catholic background.

Think to yourself who is really insecure

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

And Unionism has proved itself incapable of outreach. Gavin Robinson was trying to claim that Seamus Heaney was supportive the flag protesters and partition just this week and earlier in the year insisted everyone in the north was British.

DUP types simply cannot contain their hatred.

Tom, are you not interested in telling those on here who try and tell everyone in the North that they are Irish, that the cannot contain their - or does it only work one way with you

downcow

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

"What we have we hold" it's a siege mentality,


Be advised, my passport's green
No glass of ours was ever raised
To toast the Queen.
- Seamus Heaney

You are highlighting again one of the successes of Northern Ireland. The ability to recognise that we have a diversity of views.
The very fact that someone like Seamus Heaney, who quoted the above, has been embraced by everyone who loves Northern Ireland, as one of a number of faces of Northern Ireland, is excellent. I do not hear anyone complaining except a few belligerent Republicans.

Now it would be interesting to know whether ROI has matured enough that they would be able to have someone as the face of ROI if they said eg
'my passport is blue and I toast the Queen'. I think we all know the answer, and I think we all know which country, through lots of pain and difficulty, has journeyed the furthest

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Thankfully more and more of those from a traditional catholic background are throwing their weight behind a NI within the UK.

Hilarious. I'm sure they look at the likes of Gregory Campbell pissing on their culture, Sammy Wilson trying to drag them out of the EU, a shire of bastards in charge in London, and think to themselves 'yes, this is great'.

Unionism requires large spoonfuls of self-delusion.

NIMAN

downcow wrote: »

Unfortunately sunny you are doing what so many do who detest that there continues to be next to no support for a UI.
You are re-sectarianising the debate.
In you post you are interchanging nationality with religion. Thankfully more and more of those from a traditional catholic background are throwing their weight behind a NI within the UK.

I find it really unhelpful to keep linking religion to nationality. It also sort of admiring defeat by UI in that young people have less and less interest in religion so if that’s what you are pining your hopes on then your bate.

Ask yourself why your post began with reference to nationality but then moved to religion.
It should be clear for everyone that republicans do that because they know every poll shows zero increase in desire for UI but there is a clear year on year increase in those who are from a catholic background.

Think to yourself who is really insecure

Whilst it is correct to say that not all Catholics would be in favour of a UI, I suspect that Brexit and any potential damage it has on NI in the next decade or so might have a huge impact on changing many opinions.

Assuming of course that it affects NI negatively, which most experts say it will.

downcow

NIMAN wrote: »

Whilst it is correct to say that not all Catholics would be in favour of a UI, I suspect that Brexit and any potential damage it has on NI in the next decade or so might have a huge impact on changing many opinions.

Assuming of course that it affects NI negatively, which most experts say it will.

Well that is all to play for but Tom etc loves to fantasise about everyone in ni wanting you join a united island, just a pity for him the polls say something very different.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Tom etc loves to fantasise about...

I'm not the one fantasising, you are, with your 'increasing-support-for-NI-in-UK-amongst-people-from-a-Catholic-background' utter nonsense.

Keep fooling yourself though, I suppose you have to to help cope with the utter mess unionism and the so-called 'union' is in.

Capt'n Midnight

downcow wrote: »

Now it would be interesting to know whether ROI has matured enough that they would be able to have someone as the face of ROI if they said eg
'my passport is blue and I toast the Queen'. I think we all know the answer, and I think we all know which country, through lots of pain and difficulty, has journeyed the furthest

Mrs Windsor got a grand reception last time she visited.

Phone calls and letters from Newry to Dundalk are charged at international rate. Going the other way it's national rate.

There's only one country treating the people of Northern Ireland as fully having the right to be as British or Irish as they want. And looking after their interests through the whole Brexit process.

downcow

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Mrs Windsor got a grand reception last time she visited.

Phone calls and letters from Newry to Dundalk are charged at international rate. Going the other way it's national rate.

There's only one country treating the people of Northern Ireland as fully having the right to be as British or Irish as they want. And looking after their interests through the whole Brexit process.

Even the idea that you think the letters going from Newry to Dundalk are not international shows that you are in fantasy land and don’t even believe the United Nations It every bit as international as Paris to Madrid.
That doesn’t mean we can’t be great friends and cooperate - even gives special deals on postage.

Capt'n Midnight

downcow wrote: »

Even the idea that you think the letters going from Newry to Dundalk are not international shows that you are in fantasy land and don’t even believe the United Nations

Please quote my exact words without deliberate omissions.