Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

downcow

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Please quote my exact words without deliberate omissions.

I quoted your full piece and changed nothing. Have a check back.
I am discovering that there are a significant number on this forum who want to peddle half truths and don’t want their republican narratives challenged.
I am continually accused of all sorts but the evidence thankfully is there for all to see From mid quotes to missing questions

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

It every bit as international as Paris to Madrid.

France and Spain are separated by language, culture, thousands of years of history and even a big mountain range called the Pyrenees.

Ireland is one nation and we're only separate in the minds of Unionists.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Even the idea that you think the letters going from Newry to Dundalk are not international shows that you are in fantasy land and don’t even believe the United Nations It every bit as international as Paris to Madrid.
That doesn’t mean we can’t be great friends and cooperate - even gives special deals on postage.

Just for the record Downcow as I'm sure you're just unaware of this as I'd imagine you don't have a huge pile of experience with An Post, but post from Dundalk to Newry is sorted as, charged as and marked as national post, not international. An Post considers all post within the island as national post. It isn't a special deal, it is just than An Post treats all of the island as one postal zone.

I presume your switching of the discussion of post from Dundalk to Newry over to Newry to Dundalk was entirely accidental, as the post you quoted specifically stated that post going from Newry to Dundalk was treated as international, but treated as national the other direction.

I would question why you get so defensive about these things though?

Capt'n Midnight

downcow wrote: »

I quoted your full piece and changed nothing. Have a check back.
I am discovering that there are a significant number on this forum who want to peddle half truths and don’t want their republican narratives challenged.
I am continually accused of all sorts but the evidence thankfully is there for all to see From mid quotes to missing questions

Thank you for agreeing with what I said.

The Irish state is the only one that's looked after the interests of the people of NI during Brexit.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Just for the record Downcow as I'm sure you're just unaware of this as I'd imagine you don't have a huge pile of experience with An Post, but post from Dundalk to Newry is sorted as, charged as and marked as national post, not international. An Post considers all post within the island as national post. It isn't a special deal, it is just than An Post treats all of the island as one postal zone.

I presume your switching of the discussion of post from Dundalk to Newry over to Newry to Dundalk was entirely accidental, as the post you quoted specifically stated that post going from Newry to Dundalk was treated as international, but treated as national the other direction.

I would question why you get so defensive about these things though?

I was about to point out that you were wrong and that I had quoted capt midnight exactly. But I see he has just confirmed that I have quoted him accurately so I have no idea what you are getting at.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

France and Spain are separated by language, culture, thousands of years of history and even a big mountain range called the Pyrenees.

Ireland is one nation and we're only separate in the minds of Unionists.

Haha.
It’s been evidenced here many times that Ireland has never been united except under British force. You want to do what the brits failed to do ie unite the island.

The north east region has always been separate. The border has moved around a little, as indeed has the french Spain border.

Language is only the same because the Irish adopted English. Would you not agree that had force not been used then Roi would speak Irish?

Culture lol need I say more !

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Haha.
It’s been evidenced here many times that Ireland has never been united except under British force. You want to do what the brits failed to do ie unite the island.

The north east region has always been separate. The border has moved around a little, as indeed has the french Spain border.

Language is only the same because the Irish adopted English. Would you not agree that had force not been used then Roi would speak Irish?

Culture lol need I say more !

..and you prove Tom's point in a couple of sentences.

FrancieBrady

Passes the 'health threat to us' test again...fails the 'good neighbour' test.

https://twitter.com/Tupp_Ed/status/1340929353803304960

pixelburp

Someone, somewhere once snarked that the DUP were "English cosplayers", and events of the last 4, 5 years have given some credence to this. A party that will go out of its way to do literally endanger the economy and lives of its constituents rather than show any public deference towards a deviation from Westminster - or worse - alignment with their southern neighbours.

With FPTP, the DUP are probably safe enough in various constituencies that might otherwise leak votes downwards, but it's hard to look at their actions from here and not find them borderline craven at times. And hey, I get it. I imagine there's a lot of nose holding when it comes to a DUP vote but you'd also wonder how much longer the electorate might put up with a naturally reactive, hostile party such as they can be. A party seemingly more interested in appearing supportive of London than the community they represent.

downcow

pixelburp wrote: »

Someone, somewhere once snarked that the DUP were "English cosplayers", and events of the last 4, 5 years have given some credence to this. A party that will go out of its way to do literally endanger the economy and lives of its constituents rather than show any public deference towards a deviation from Westminster - or worse - alignment with their southern neighbours.

With FPTP, the DUP are probably safe enough in various constituencies that might otherwise leak votes downwards, but it's hard to look at their actions from here and not find their actions borderline craven at times. And hey, I get it. I imagine there's a lot of nose holding when it comes to a DUP vote but you'd also wonder how much longer the electorate might put up with a naturally reactive, hostile party such as they.

I get everyone’s concerns around covid but this works two ways.
The people who are crying now to have travel interrupted between ni and other regions of the UK are the same people who resisted even the very slightest interruption to movements across the border re enabling brexit.
You can’t have it both ways.
Also there were periods when either side of the border had very different levels of covid and no chance them of closing the border.

I am all for ni doing the right thing but don’t expect us to be influenced by those who talked of violence escalating to prevent any restrictions at ni Roi border.

There are at least 4 cases of this new strain already in ni so why are you not calling for closing the ni Roi border.

I smell a rat - and a political one at that

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I get everyone’s concerns around covid but this works two ways.
The people who are crying now to have travel interrupted between ni and other regions of the UK are the same people who resisted even the very slightest interruption to movements across the border re enabling brexit.
You can’t have it both ways.
Also there were periods when either side of the border had very different levels of covid and no chance them of closing the border.

I am all for ni doing the right thing but don’t expect us to be influenced by those who talked of violence escalating to prevent any restrictions at ni Roi border.

There are at least 4 cases of this new strain already in ni so why are you not calling for closing the ni Roi border.

I smell a rat - and a political one at that

So basically, what you are saying is that you think it is ok to endanger everyone's health because you are having a huff about something else entirely.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

I get everyone’s concerns around covid but this works two ways.
The people who are crying now to have travel interrupted between ni and other regions of the UK are the same people who resisted even the very slightest interruption to movements across the border re enabling brexit.
You can’t have it both ways.
Also there were periods when either side of the border had very different levels of covid and no chance them of closing the border.

I am all for ni doing the right thing but don’t expect us to be influenced by those who talked of violence escalating to prevent any restrictions at ni Roi border.

There are at least 4 cases of this new strain already in ni so why are you not calling for closing the ni Roi border.

I smell a rat - and a political one at that

There we are now. It seems it is equally as sensitive and difficult for you guys to close out ni folk as it is for us to close gb folk

“ The Republic of Ireland's transport minister says the Irish government will not be introducing border controls on the border with Northern Ireland.

"We can't and we won't be introducing border controls on the NI border," says Eamon Ryan.”

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

There we are now. It seems it is equally as sensitive and difficult for you guys to close out ni folk as it is for us to close gb folk

“ The Republic of Ireland's transport minister says the Irish government will not be introducing border controls on the border with Northern Ireland.

"We can't and we won't be introducing border controls on the NI border," says Eamon Ryan.”

One party stands against safeguarding the health of the island in the most sensible practical way downcow...ONE party - a belligerent Unionist party.

pixelburp

downcow wrote: »

I get everyone’s concerns around covid but this works two ways.
The people who are crying now to have travel interrupted between ni and other regions of the UK are the same people who resisted even the very slightest interruption to movements across the border re enabling brexit.
You can’t have it both ways.
Also there were periods when either side of the border had very different levels of covid and no chance them of closing the border.

I am all for ni doing the right thing but don’t expect us to be influenced by those who talked of violence escalating to prevent any restrictions at ni Roi border.

There are at least 4 cases of this new strain already in ni so why are you not calling for closing the ni Roi border.

I smell a rat - and a political one at that

Which people? Name names cos generalisations add nothing but obfuscation and distraction. And if you can't separate context of actions or beliefs between actions taken against Brexit or CoVid then there'll be little point debating.

For a start, there are, what? 200 already non-policed border crossings and an existing soft economic border present between the North and the south. An all Island policy and taking advantage of Ireland's natural island status was a no brainer in heading off a new, aggressive strain. Starting with closing the cross water air and sea travel. This path wasn't chosen cos god forbid some unity of purpose during an existential crisis would be considered.

You're right, there's a political rat but when a single party overrides the concerns of 4 others (I'm guessing UUP, SDLP, SF and Alliance), then I question the motivations when there's a CONSISTENT pattern by the DUP to act against NIs arguable best interests. They were best placed to insulate themselves from the worst economic effects of Brexit, and in some cases CoVid. They have chosen not to, endangering both their own constituents and those in the RoI.

Junkyard Tom

pixelburp wrote: »

you'd also wonder how much longer the electorate might put up with a naturally reactive, hostile party such as they can be. A party seemingly more interested in appearing supportive of London than the community they represent.

The DUP represent the anti-Unification, not-an-inch, die-wrapped-in-union-flag-rather-than-cooperate-on-an-all-Ireland-basis, nationalist hating vote.

That core anti-Irish vote will remain until there is a united Ireland. Partition of our nation/people empowers the DUP, unification would emasculate it.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You are highlighting again one of the successes of Northern Ireland. The ability to recognise that we have a diversity of views.
The very fact that someone like Seamus Heaney, who quoted the above, has been embraced by everyone who loves Northern Ireland, as one of a number of faces of Northern Ireland, is excellent. I do not hear anyone complaining except a few belligerent Republicans.

Pretty hard to reject a nobel Literature prize winner, DC. This reminds me of the English tendency to pronounce the tennis player, Andy Murray as British when he won and Scottish when he lost!



I wonder would Seamus Heaney be pleased to be the face of NI, considering he moved out of there a long time ago.

Now it would be interesting to know whether ROI has matured enough that they would be able to have someone as the face of ROI if they said eg 'my passport is blue and I toast the Queen'. I think we all know the answer, and I think we all know which country, through lots of pain and difficulty, has journeyed the furthest

Why in the name of god would Ireland want to have a British subject as the face of Ireland, bearing in mind that we have plenty of Irish people who embrace our green passport and toast our President?


Mind you, Jack Charlton, an English world cup winner was dearly loved and honoured in this part of the island.

downcow

pixelburp wrote: »

Which people? Name names cos generalisations add nothing but obfuscation and distraction. And if you can't separate context of actions or beliefs between actions taken against Brexit or CoVid then there'll be little point debating.

For a start, there are, what? 200 already non-policed border crossings and an existing soft economic border present between the North and the south. An all Island policy and taking advantage of Ireland's natural island status was a no brainer in heading off a new, aggressive strain. Starting with closing the cross water air and sea travel. This path wasn't chosen cos god forbid some unity of purpose during an existential crisis would be considered.

You're right, there's a political rat but when a single party overrides the concerns of 4 others (I'm guessing UUP, SDLP, SF and Alliance), then I question the motivations when there's a CONSISTENT pattern by the DUP to act against NIs arguable best interests. They were best placed to insulate themselves from the worst economic effects of Brexit, and in some cases CoVid. They have chosen not to, endangering both their own constituents and those in the RoI.

you completely ignored this question
"There are at least 4 cases of this new strain already in ni so why are you not calling for closing the ni Roi border?"

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The DUP represent the anti-Unification, not-an-inch, die-wrapped-in-union-flag-rather-than-cooperate-on-an-all-Ireland-basis, nationalist hating vote.

That core anti-Irish vote will remain until there is a united Ireland. Partition of our nation/people empowers the DUP, unification would emasculate it.

Tom, would you accept the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland being closed for any reason? And if so, give me a few examples when you think it would be a good idea to close it

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Tom, would you accept the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland being closed for any reason? And if so, give me a few examples when you think it would be a good idea to close it

The threat is external not internal.

Belligerent Unionism is first and foremost endangering their own people

pixelburp

downcow wrote: »

you completely ignored this question
"There are at least 4 cases of this new strain already in ni so why are you not calling for closing the ni Roi border?"

I didn't ignore the question, the whataboutery is a transparent attempt at a gotcha; I get what you're doing but the whole "look to your own parish" is pointlessly antagonistic. And if anything I'd have thought it answered already, albeit tangentially. You can't ignore the reality of a shared island of interests.

As said. There are hundreds of entry points along the border, main roads crossing in and out of the province. Closing the border would be prohibitively difficult, without consensual policing in the north to help. So instead the more pragmatic solution, the bare minimum of caution would be to stop entry into the overall island itself, entry from a new and pronounced vector of infection - but as you say - there's a political edge to the equation. Geography SHOULD be our biggest strength here.

Maybe the logic is sound from the DUP and the horse is bolted, that it's too late to close international points of entry; I daresay it possibly is...but just because you smell petrol and smoke, doesn't mean you carry on smoking the cigarette. The decision by the RoI, France and others is sound. This is a potential powder keg of a 3rd wave and limiting its effects is simple logic.

To the original point, the DUP has played a very cynical, short sighted strategy of siding with the Tories at the expense of the norths financial future. Some quick cash for the sake of sycophancy. I don't respect that decision, not when for once an all Island solution could help.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Tom, would you accept the border between Northern Ireland

What border? There is no border.

downcow

pixelburp wrote: »

I didn't ignore the question, the whataboutery is a transparent attempt at a gotcha; I get what you're doing but the whole "look to your own parish" is pointlessly antagonistic. And if anything I'd have thought it answered already, albeit tangentially. You can't ignore the reality of a shared island of interests.

As said. There are hundreds of entry points along the border, main roads crossing in and out of the province. Closing the border would be prohibitively difficult, without consensual policing in the north to help. So instead the more pragmatic solution, the bare minimum of caution would be to stop entry into the overall island itself, entry from a new and pronounced vector of infection - but as you say - there's a political edge to the equation. Geography SHOULD be our biggest strength here.

Maybe the logic is sound from the DUP and the horse is bolted, that it's too late to close international points of entry; I daresay it possibly is...but just because you smell petrol and smoke, doesn't mean you carry on smoking the cigarette. The decision by the RoI, France and others is sound. This is a potential powder keg of a 3rd wave and limiting its effects is simple logic.

To the original point, the DUP has played a very cynical, short sighted strategy of siding with the Tories at the expense of the norths financial future. Some quick cash for the sake of sycophancy. I don't respect that decision, not when for once an all Island solution could help.

I have no love for the the DUP and from the day they accepted the blackmail money for keeping May in government I said it would come back to bite them massively and that the Torries would get them in the long grass. So you will not find me disagreeing with you on that.

If I'd be really honest, I would only like to see movement hampered between the mainland and Northern Ireland as an absolute last resort, and only if it could be shown to be beneficial. The new strain is in Northern Ireland so I don't really see what the point be.

Call it whataboutery if you like, but I am just trying to point out that it is a big decision to close/create a border in the midst of a nation that you give your allegiance to. This is equally difficult for Nationalists to split Ireland as it is for Unionists to split the UK.
And I say again. I would do it if it merited it, but I do not believe it does.
If you believe that the new virus is not in ROI then you should bring out a ruling of no travel over the border. It's a red herring to say it could not be enforced because of the number of roads. Of course it could not be 100% enforced, absolutely no border could, but that does not mean you don't make the announcement. The announcement is not being made for exactly the same reason as Stormont are not making a similar announcement about travel from GB

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

What border? There is no border.

Tom you are in fantasyland again. The whole world except our Tom and Francie et al recognise an international border between Dundalk and Newry

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Passes the 'health threat to us' test again...fails the 'good neighbour' test.

https://twitter.com/Tupp_Ed/status/1340929353803304960

Francie, maybe you would provide some evidence that the UUP have asked for a ban on movement from GB to NI,
that is certainly not what I am hearing - but sure it makes a good story

pixelburp

downcow wrote: »

I

Call it whataboutery if you like, but I am just trying to point out that it is a big decision to close/create a border in the midst of a nation that you give your allegiance to. This is equally difficult for Nationalists to split Ireland as it is for Unionists to split the UK.
And I say again. I would do it if it merited it, but I do not believe it does.

It isn't that difficult, it really isn't. An island during the pandemic has an immediate natural advantage that many countries on continental Europe simply don't possess. We as an island have two main points of international entry: airports and seaports. That's it, if one chooses to put down the issue of flags for a second and embrace pragmatism of our reality. The rugby players manage it easily enough . An allergy from unionists to decouple from the larger political entity, however temporarily, is naive and shortsighted. Talking of "Allegiance" is a worthless gesture in the face of a pandemic, putting emotion over basic all Island tactics. It's not without reason one of the reasons new Zealand did so well was because of its geography; another small country with.

Now. That door swings both ways but it's plainly obvious which of the two governments would be more open to an unprecedented sharing of strategy to fight this pandemic. Maybe Dublin should have asked. Maybe they did, but we all know what the DUP side of Stormont would have said. Their response a famous refrain of its former Preacher- Leader. However politically suicidal it would have been for Foster to accept the notion mind you.

In fact the Republic and North are more comparable to those mainland EU borders, given the porous nature of road networks between (say) the BeNeLux nations. Similar to the N54 and A3 in Monaghan, only larger. Impossible to close, so one looks to a larger macro level. Logistically there's a world of difference, despite trying to appeal towards some sense of "allegiance", I think you know this.

James Brown

The DUP need to cut the crap and organise an all island response to Covid. Especially with the new UK strain.

downcow

pixelburp wrote: »

It isn't that difficult, it really isn't. An island during the pandemic has an immediate natural advantage that many countries on continental Europe simply don't possess. We as an island have two main points of international entry: airports and seaports. That's it, if one chooses to put down the issue of flags for a second and embrace pragmatism of our reality. The rugby players manage it easily enough . An allergy from unionists to decouple from the larger political entity, however temporarily, is naive and shortsighted. Talking of "Allegiance" is a worthless gesture in the face of a pandemic, putting emotion over basic all Island tactics. It's not without reason one of the reasons new Zealand did so well was because of its geography; another small country with.

Now. That door swings both ways but it's plainly obvious which of the two governments would be more open to an unprecedented sharing of strategy to fight this pandemic. Maybe Dublin should have asked. Maybe they did, but we all know what the DUP side of Stormont would have said. Their response a famous refrain of its former Preacher- Leader. However politically suicidal it would have been for Foster to accept the notion mind you.

In fact the Republic and North are more comparable to those mainland EU borders, given the porous nature of road networks between (say) the BeNeLux nations. Similar to the N54 and A3 in Monaghan, only larger. Impossible to close, so one looks to a larger macro level. Logistically there's a world of difference, despite trying to appeal towards some sense of "allegiance", I think you know this.

I don’t disagree with much of that. But in the same way as when ni needed brexit help it was disregarded by Gb following the £1b blackmail Roi will be disregarded now as it was not prepared to assist in any way with minor checks at either Dundalk or cork.

Your post would make sense if it was detached from recent and not so recent history.

The virus is here so ni has nothing to achieve by all island approach so unlikely to happen.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, maybe you would provide some evidence that the UUP have asked for a ban on movement from GB to NI,
that is certainly not what I am hearing - but sure it makes a good story

Up to you to prove the source I provided wrong downcow.
Your friend of a friend of a second cousin telling you something isn't worth a hill of beans.

downcow

Bowie wrote: »

The DUP need to cut the crap and organise an all island response to Covid. Especially with the new UK strain.

I understand there are at least 3 parties opposed to a all island approach

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Up to you to prove the source I provided wrong downcow.
Your friend of a friend of a second cousin telling you something isn't worth a hill of beans.

You did not provide any source other than a post on Twitter. Is that the level we are operating at. I guess you’ve had a look and realise the twitter posters is at his work