Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

downcow · 25-12-2020 5:00pm

ittakestwo wrote: »

Successful and secure? Don't make me laugh. Consistently runs a deficit and has noway to pay its own way, and the two many parties encourage sectarianism. And secure? Very precarious more like. Signed up to an international agreement which allows it to no longer exist by popular vote at any time.

The gfa was a master class in hoodwinking the likes of you.
“ Signed up to an international agreement which allows it to no longer exist by popular vote at any time”
Tell me any country where this is not the case and there is no signed agreement.
I have to pinch myself when people come out with the stuff you are saying.
If the majority of people in Roi voted to call the country lalaland would it not happen?

Junkyard Tom · 26-12-2020 8:46pm

Good to see that young Irish students in the northeast won't miss out on the chance to avail of the Erasmus programme just because the British have spitefully withdrawn from it.

downcow · 26-12-2020 11:03pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Good to see that young Irish students in the northeast won't miss out on the chance to avail of the Erasmus programme just because the British have spitefully withdrawn from it.

Great job. Best if both worlds. Thank you Roi. Keep up the good work. We have NHS & Erasmus

Kermit.de.frog · 26-12-2020 11:25pm

The Irish government should not be paying a cent for anything in the north so long as it is part of the UK.

The UK should pay.

downcow · 27-12-2020 7:45am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The Irish government should not be paying a cent for anything in the north so long as it is part of the UK.

The UK should pay.

I agree with you, but why look a gift horse in the mouth

Fionn1952 · 27-12-2020 10:54am

downcow wrote: »

I agree with you, but why look a gift horse in the mouth

Further integration between NI and Ireland is no bad thing alright, Downcow. Just think, all those University educated children looking towards the Irish state for expanding their horizons.

Certainly it won't be some big seismic push either way, but another little move on the numbers as some people will certainly be looking at post-Brexit Britain as holding them back and further embracing their Irishness, particularly given that the majority in NI already supported remaining part of the EU.

Arlene and Co may have done more for Irish Unity than the Shinners ever managed.

downcow · 27-12-2020 11:31am

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Further integration between NI and Ireland is no bad thing alright, Downcow. Just think, all those University educated children looking towards the Irish state for expanding their horizons.

Certainly it won't be some big seismic push either way, but another little move on the numbers as some people will certainly be looking at post-Brexit Britain as holding them back and further embracing their Irishness, particularly given that the majority in NI already supported remaining part of the EU.

Arlene and Co may have done more for Irish Unity than the Shinners ever managed.

Some truth in some of what you say. I think the greening of the north will continue to crawl along. But actually the greener the north becomes then the more nationalists are happy and don’t want to rock the boat ie a north that recognises their identity and also had the nhs etc. That’s the conundrum for republicans.

And I can assure you young people in Northern Ireland, when they think, let me broaden my horizons, thinks, I could spend a year in the south. Haha get real. They think South America, Africa, Far East. You really have an amazing opinion on your country

FrancieBrady · 27-12-2020 11:39am

downcow wrote: »

Some truth in some of what you say. I think the greening of the north will continue to crawl along. But actually the greener the north becomes then the more nationalists are happy and don’t want to rock the boat ie a north that recognised their identity and also had the nhs etc. That’s the conundrum for republicans.

And I can assure you young people in Northern Ireland, when they think, let me broaden my horizons, thinks, I could spend a year in the south. Haha get real. They think South America, Africa, Far East. You really have an amazing opinion on your country

The seismic shift has happened downcow...you have diverged from the UK, in your own words (Unionism's) you have been severed from the 'Union' in the interests of Westminster.

That will speed up the 'greening'. The EU, that you are still in, sees you as Irish. The UK will diverge away from the EU now (slower than it would have if there had been no deal) and it will be more and more in our interests (The EU's) that this island is fully within the EU and it will also be in Westminster's interests as NI is a complication. Partition has bitten Britain in the bum enough.

Rodin · 27-12-2020 11:41am

Boris Johnson is the best thing to happen to Irish Nationalism in decades...

Now we've got a border down the Irish sea.
NI in the EU in some ways that GB isn't .
One suppliers stop sending stuff west because of regulation hassle, the north will look to the south for supply....

A soft united Ireland by the back door.
It really is inevitable.

pixelburp · 27-12-2020 11:42am

downcow wrote: »

Some truth in some of what you say. I think the greening of the north will continue to crawl along. But actually the greener the north becomes then the more nationalists are happy and don’t want to rock the boat ie a north that recognises their identity and also had the nhs etc. That’s the conundrum for republicans.

And I can assure you young people in Northern Ireland, when they think, let me broaden my horizons, thinks, I could spend a year in the south. Haha get real. They think South America, Africa, Far East. You really have an amazing opinion on your country

I'm confused trying to parse your contention here. That young people won't support unification because they're too busy emigrating to South Africa? How is support for unification lead by or negated by (a pretty standard) desire for a J1 or Erasmus?

And reads like you yourself have an amazing opinion of your own system if you think the darling NHS will keep people from voting for change. Isn't exactly working with the Scots at the moment... While the Tories continue to gut the NHs out of recognition, it's a far cry from the days of Atlee.

downcow · 27-12-2020 1:08pm

pixelburp wrote: »

I'm confused trying to parse your contention here. That young people won't support unification because they're too busy emigrating to South Africa? How is support for unification lead by or negated by (a pretty standard) desire for a J1 or Erasmus?

And reads like you yourself have an amazing opinion of your own system if you think the darling NHS will keep people from voting for change. Isn't exactly working with the Scots at the moment... While the Tories continue to gut the NHs out of recognition, it's a far cry from the days of Atlee.

I don’t know where to start to reply.

You are the one who said young people in ni would look to an experience in Roi to broaden their vision (or something like that). I am just telling you that the young people o know want that experience on the other side of the globe.

The polls are clear. The nhs is a huge factor in the vast majority in ni not want to join Roi.
You need to either fix you health service or do a better or job.

Scotland has the nhs and I am quite sure would maintain it in an independent Scotland do no comparison

pixelburp · 27-12-2020 1:30pm

downcow wrote: »

I don’t know where to start to reply.

You are the one who said

No. I didn't.

downcow wrote: »

young people in ni would look to an experience in Roi to broaden their vision (or something like that). I am just telling you that the young people o know want that experience on the other side of the globe.

I can't speak to the other user you're patently mixing me up with but that's not how I read it at all. Even the most ardent republican wouldn't be so blind to think the RoI is an appealing foreign destination for the wanderlust types. The RoI is however helping maintain that ability to do so.

downcow wrote: »

The polls are clear. The nhs is a huge factor in the vast majority in ni not want to join Roi.
You need to either fix you health service or do a better or job.

Scotland has the nhs and I am quite sure would maintain it in an independent Scotland do no comparison

I'd like to see the poll please, am curious.

It's a fairly well established point that the Tories are gutting the NHS at the moment, and is a far cry from its heady days of yore (much like Britain in general, but hey). A long way to go until it hits American levels but the shine is lost a little.

I'm not playing a pißing contest of health services but the National 'Elth is far from its peak that'd I'd snark so fast at the HSE (with its own, albeit different problems). Were "fixing a health service" so simple.

Fionn1952 · 27-12-2020 1:47pm

downcow wrote: »

Some truth in some of what you say. I think the greening of the north will continue to crawl along. But actually the greener the north becomes then the more nationalists are happy and don’t want to rock the boat ie a north that recognises their identity and also had the nhs etc. That’s the conundrum for republicans.

And I can assure you young people in Northern Ireland, when they think, let me broaden my horizons, thinks, I could spend a year in the south. Haha get real. They think South America, Africa, Far East. You really have an amazing opinion on your country

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the extending of Erasmus to the young people of the North would be part of broadening their horizons purely so they could spend a year living in a different part of their own island.

Either you're being willfully misrepresentative or you don't actually know what Erasmus is Downcow, but it's a bit more than having the option to spend a year in Dublin. It really is a fantastic idea and I'm saddened that British children won't have that option in years to come.

And yes, in a few days, an Irish passport will be much more useful for broadening ones horizons than a British passport, even taking Erasmus out of the picture. Aren't we of the North very lucky that the Irish government are still looking out for us?

As for the rest, if the likes of the DUP weren't so aggressively anti anything Irish, that might be a real issue. As demonstrated time and time again, they can't help themselves though, and will continue to push people from Nationalist backgrounds away unless they have some huge changes in how they act. Unionism has as much work to do on its inclusiveness to maintain the Union as Nationalism has to do on the other side. You demonstrate your complacency on this time and time again with your insistence it'll never happen.

downcow · 27-12-2020 2:44pm

pixelburp wrote: »

No. I didn't.

I can't speak to the other user you're patently mixing me up with but that's not how I read it at all. Even the most ardent republican wouldn't be so blind to think the RoI is an appealing foreign destination for the wanderlust types. The RoI is however helping maintain that ability to do so.

I'd like to see the poll please, am curious.

It's a fairly well established point that the Tories are gutting the NHS at the moment, and is a far cry from its heady days of yore (much like Britain in general, but hey). A long way to go until it hits American levels but the shine is lost a little.

I'm not playing a pißing contest of health services but the National 'Elth is far from its peak that'd I'd snark so fast at the HSE (with its own, albeit different problems). Were "fixing a health service" so simple.

Apologies. Mistaken identity.
I’ll find the poll or rather the polls

downcow · 27-12-2020 2:49pm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the extending of Erasmus to the young people of the North would be part of broadening their horizons purely so they could spend a year living in a different part of their own island.

Either you're being willfully misrepresentative or you don't actually know what Erasmus is Downcow, but it's a bit more than having the option to spend a year in Dublin. It really is a fantastic idea and I'm saddened that British children won't have that option in years to come.

And yes, in a few days, an Irish passport will be much more useful for broadening ones horizons than a British passport, even taking Erasmus out of the picture. Aren't we of the North very lucky that the Irish government are still looking out for us?

As for the rest, if the likes of the DUP weren't so aggressively anti anything Irish, that might be a real issue. As demonstrated time and time again, they can't help themselves though, and will continue to push people from Nationalist backgrounds away unless they have some huge changes in how they act. Unionism has as much work to do on its inclusiveness to maintain the Union as Nationalism has to do on the other side. You demonstrate your complacency on this time and time again with your insistence it'll never happen.

I did think you were suggesting a year in Roi so apologies.

British children living in ni will be able to avail of Erasmus- unless you know differently. I can’t see Roi government making it being necessary to hold a irish passport

British children in gb will have a new scheme to avail of.

Low and behold, British (and Irish) children living in ni will be able to avail of both systems.

It is laughable to suggest Roi are looking after the people of gb and by implication UK are not

downcow · 27-12-2020 3:13pm

pixelburp wrote: »

No. I didn't.

I'd like to see the poll please, am curious.

It's a fairly well established point that the Tories are gutting the NHS at the moment, and is a far cry from its heady days of yore (much like Britain in general, but hey). A long way to go until it hits American levels but the shine is lost a little.

I'm not playing a pißing contest of health services but the National 'Elth is far from its peak that'd I'd snark so fast at the HSE (with its own, albeit different problems). Were "fixing a health service" so simple.

Heres some thoughts from both sides on the NHS https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/can-the-republic-afford-a-united-ireland-these-unionists-don-t-think-so-1.4348744

and a southern doctor on the NHS https://www.irishnews.com/opinion/letterstotheeditor/2019/08/13/news/sinn-fe-in-needs-to-think-about-practical-side-of-a-united-ireland-1682636/

and this is fairly clear
https://www.economist.com/europe/2019/03/21/health-care-in-ireland-leaves-much-to-be-desired

One example of the importance of the NHS in a poll
The LucidTalk poll indicated that the NHS would play a key role in deciding a border poll with 35% of people definitely voting for Irish unity, 34% for the Union - but 26% saying they'd likely opt to remain in the UK because of the NHS.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/poll-shows-young-people-favour-a-united-ireland-says-sinn-fein-39671357.html

Fionn1952 · 27-12-2020 3:42pm

downcow wrote: »

I did think you were suggesting a year in Roi so apologies.

British children living in ni will be able to avail of Erasmus- unless you know differently. I can’t see Roi government making it being necessary to hold a irish passport

British children in gb will have a new scheme to avail of.

Low and behold, British (and Irish) children living in ni will be able to avail of both systems.

It is laughable to suggest Roi are looking after the people of gb and by implication UK are not

Children in NI will be able to partake in the Erasmus system thanks to the Irish government, so in this specific case (I.e. what I was referring to in my post), it would be perfectly accurate to state that the Irish government are looking after the people of NI and the British government are not.

Let's wait and see what the promised British replacement looks like before suggesting the new scheme is comparable (if it ever shows up). The promised EU grant equivalents were certainly far from equivalent. If wishes were fishes and all that, you know?

ittakestwo · 28-12-2020 9:09pm

Duty free will now return when travelling between Ireland and Great Britain, but there will no duty free berween NI and ROI.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/brexit-duty-free-makes-a-come-back-for-travellers-returning-from-britain-1.4446548?mode=amp

Hamsterchops · 30-12-2020 3:54pm

NI health service is not a failure.

I was very surprised to hear some expert on the radio this morning proclaiming how advanced and organised the health survive is in Northern Ireland when compared to our health service!

He was being interview by Mark Little on Newstalk before 10am. Can't remember his name, but he really knew his onions, and he couldn't make it clear enough as to how advanced, organised & structured the NHS is in Northern Ireland when compared to our health system!

Mark Little brought up about the call for help by their ambulance service for our ambulances to assist, to which he totally agreed but said isn't it great that we could help with their Covid crisis, but doesn't it also show how bad the virus had become there & how they're fighting it. (Vaccine already rolled out several weeks ago).

He's also stated that NI was a sovereign state within the UK, and as such was outside our grasp, or words to that affect...

All this has me scratching my head, as listening to various reports in the Irish media over the months I thought the NI health system was in a total mess!

Obviously not :cool:

Five Eighth · 30-12-2020 5:15pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

NI health service is not a failure.

I was very surprised to hear some expert on the radio this morning proclaiming how advanced and organised the health survive is in Northern Ireland when compared to our health service!

He was being interview by Mark Little on Newstalk before 10am. Can't remember his name, but he really knew his onions, and he couldn't make it clear enough as to how advanced, organised & structured the NHS is in Northern Ireland when compared to our health system!

Mark Little brought up about the call for help by their ambulance service for our ambulances to assist, to which he totally agreed but said isn't it great that we could help with their Covid crisis, but doesn't it also show how bad the virus had become there & how they're fighting it. (Vaccine already rolled out several weeks ago).

He's also stated that NI was a sovereign state within the UK, and as such was outside our grasp, or words to that affect...

All this has me scratching my head, as listening to various reports in the Irish media over the months I thought the NI health system was in a total mess!

Obviously not :cool:

Who claimed that the Northern Ireland health service was a 'failure' and a 'total mess'? Please provide the relevant links to the Irish media which you refer to in your post.

Also, you state that this 'expert' stated that "NI was a sovereign state within the UK, and as such was outside our grasp, or words to that affect..." So what? You don't to be an expert in anything to know that NI is currently within the UK.

Hamsterchops · 30-12-2020 5:41pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

Who claimed that the Northern Ireland health service was a 'failure' and a 'total mess'? Please provide the relevant links to the Irish media which you refer to in your post.

Also, you state that this 'expert' stated that "NI was a sovereign state within the UK, and as such was outside our grasp, or words to that affect..." So what? You don't to be an expert in anything to know that NI is currently within the UK.

Easy there tiger, keep your hair on and don't shoot the messenger. Loads of negative media stuff relating to NI and it's failing health service, jezz even in this thread there's more than a little negativity about NI and the mess they're in.

I was surprised when the interviewee explained how advanced their Health Service was in comparrson to ours, that's all.

Presumably you knew this already?

Five Eighth · 30-12-2020 5:45pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Easy there tiger, keep your hair on and don't shoot the messenger. Loads of negative media stuff relating to NI and it's failing health service, jezz even in this thread there's more than a little negativity about NI and the mess they're in.

I was surprised when the interviewee explained how advanced their Health Service was in comparrson to ours, that's all.

Presumably you knew this already?

Still didn't provide the links as requested. Don't know of anyone or any media who claimed that the NHS in NI was a 'failure' or 'in a mess'. It appears that the NI Executive made a right bags of managing the effects of Covid and the hospitals were under pressure coping with the results of the mess. It's not an NHS mess but a NI Executive mess.

Junkyard Tom · 30-12-2020 5:50pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

Who claimed that the Northern Ireland health service was a 'failure' and a 'total mess'?

Nobody did, pay no heed to our unionist friend there. The NHS was built out of the ashes of WWII and was the envy of the developed world, a very admirable project that the Tories would like to defund and sell off.

The NHS has very strong cross-community support in the north and a United Ireland would provide a great opportunity to build a 21st Century Ireland-wide version if we could get it by the special interests that partition serves.

FrancieBrady · 30-12-2020 5:54pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

Still didn't provide the links as requested. Don't know of anyone or any media who claimed that the NHS in NI was a 'failure' or 'in a mess'. It appears that the NI Executive made a right bags of managing the effects of Covid and the hospitals were under pressure coping with the results of the mess. It's not an NHS mess but a NI Executive mess.

So when the NHS does good...that us down to the great NHS but if it cannot cope that is because it's somebody else's fault?
There is a lot of myth about the NHS and much the same complaints in reality as there is about the HSE.
Would be great if we could take what was best about both and combine them in a new island efficient service.

Hamsterchops · 30-12-2020 6:03pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Nobody did, pay no heed to our unionist friend there. The NHS was built out of the ashes of WWII and was the envy of the developed world, a very admirable project that the Tories would like to defund and sell off.

The NHS has very strong cross-community support in the north and a United Ireland would provide an great opportunity to build a 21st Century Ireland-wide version if we could get it by the special interests that partition serves.

Unionist friend, what me or the chap on the radio?

Either way even you as a hardened Irish Republican recognise that the NI health system is far more advanced then ours!

This fact, I only discovered today.

Five Eighth · 30-12-2020 6:04pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So when the NHS does good...that us down to the great NHS but if it cannot cope that is because it's somebody else's fault?
There is a lot of myth about the NHS and much the same complaints in reality as there is about the HSE.
Would be great if we could take what was best about both and combine them in a new island efficient service.

Would assume that the NHS in NI, just like the HSE, is just trying to cope as best it can with the dynamic nature of the virus. Don't think that anyone claimed, on this thread or anywhere else for that matter, that the NHS was a 'failure' or a 'mess'. Was just wondering why the poster claimed same.

Hamsterchops · 30-12-2020 6:16pm

Well even Mark Little's intake of breath and his hasty "But sure didn't we have send them ambulances to help, such is ...." He was quickly stopped in his tracks when it was explained to him, that even with their advanced health system, they still needed our ambulances to help with the influx of new Covid patients.

Seems like I was the last person here to be aware as to what a success the NI health service is. I think it great that we were able to help.

I'm only relaying a Radio interview from this morning on Newstalk.

Junkyard Tom · 30-12-2020 6:17pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

a hardened Irish Republican

Haha, you must have led a very sheltered life. Tell me do you still think we should 'rejoin' (we never joined it in the first place) the United Kingdom?

recognise that the NI health system is far more advanced then ours!

It isn't 'far more advanced', it might have been at one time but that's no longer the case. A two-tier system worse than ours in the south is developing, with a wait of up to four years to see an NHS consultant, only a week or two if you go private.

Public patients are waiting over a week to see a GP in the north while it's next day, or day after, here.

Hamsterchops · 30-12-2020 6:22pm

Sorry I brought this up.

Bye.

Junkyard Tom · 30-12-2020 6:24pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

Would assume that the NHS in NI, just like the HSE, is just trying to cope as best it can with the dynamic nature of the virus.

We made slightly less a balls of it than the DUP have in the north. We should have closed down Ireland and eradicated the virus like they've done in Australia and NZ. Unfortunately too many Unionists in the north would never agree to making Ireland COVID free due to their hatred of the notion of Ireland wide cooperation, they'd rather die wrapped in a Union Flag

Anyone who doesn't see the how we could have benefited from having one authority on the island for this pandemic is either a fool, a liar, or some combination of the two.

Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

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