Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

ELM327

downcow wrote: »

Droidman
You either have not read the last few pages or are at your work.

You know right well that I was applying the other posters logic to his own territory that he was apply to mine.
I don’t know you but from what you say, you appear to me as an Irishman of irish nationality living in the Irish republic which I have no problem accepting is a form of the Irish nation. I also have no problem accepting that those scattered around the globe of Irish decent whether it be Liverpool, Londonderry or Los Angeles are also part of the Irish nation.
And i accept you do not live in the british isles, that ceased to exist some time ago.

Where it gets rediculous is where some posters on here try to tell me, a british person living in the uk, that I am Irish and living in the Irish nation. What’s good for the goose and all that

This is simply baiting. You're bordering on the ridiculous quotes from the 80's -90's unionists on the Garvaghy Road, "the queens people want to walk the queens highway".


I hope you are being intentionally agressive. If not, your breed of unionism is the reason why a UI and an independant scotland are closer now than ever.


As it stands, NI as a region has done well in the past 20 years to live in a fragile peace. Sentiments like yours (and equally hardline nationalism) are not welcome.

jh79

ELM327 wrote: »

This is simply baiting. You're bordering on the ridiculous quotes from the 80's -90's unionists on the Garvaghy Road, "the queens people want to walk the queens highway".


I hope you are being intentionally agressive. If not, your breed of unionism is the reason why a UI and an independant scotland are closer now than ever.


As it stands, NI as a region has done well in the past 20 years to live in a fragile peace. Sentiments like yours (and equally hardline nationalism) are not welcome.

How is it baiting? The GFA legitimized NI as part of the UK. In response to SIPO MLD admitted there is a British and Irish SF and British SF have worked for Westminster ever since. Insecure Republicans need to come to terms with what the realities of the GFA are.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

So now it’s a coach full of women?
Anyhow let me try again with you and if I patronise you then so be it as I am not sure you are getting why this would happen.

I missed the year but I am guessing it was in the troubles.
As for your trip being women; a major tactic of the ira was planting incendiary devices in department stores. Most of these came in in women’s handbags or tucked into prams etc. Many of them came along with shopping trips from the south.

Nonsense. Why would any bomber try and smuggle a bomb through a manned checkpoint when there were hundreds of unmanned ones in the porous border. And no, the problem wasn't PIRA smuggling bombs in from the Republic, it was PIRA escaping from NI over the border into the republic was the problem that the British security forces had as they had to stop at the border. Its nonsese you are coming out with to say that incendiary devices came from the ROI in prams and shopping bags. There was no need for them as they could make them in NI.



From my trips up North back then, everyone was searched going into shops, not at the border. When crossing the border on official roads, you were stopped and questioned by some British Army lad with an English accent while some of his mates hunkered down pointing a gun at you from beside a checkpoint.

That soldier would have been briefed either that day or very recently with suspects and info from informers about who to look out for. Whilst lying in the ditch he would use his rifle sights to scan the buses and cars looking for known republicans (and yes that could certainly include ira bomber women operating under the cover of a shopping trip).

So it’s completely logical to me that ha would scan along his side of the coach looking for suspects. (I do completely understand that that could appear to a young boy in the coach as threatening)

Nonsense. Those soldiers pointing a gun at a child were just showing who was boss.

Growing up in my community which was under attack from some of your community I have to say. Yes I understand your problem that day but you need to just get over it. That soldiers same actions, maybe with the next car or bus, may have saved a seven year old in banbridge getting blown to pieces.

Some of you guys need to get real. Have a dig and see how many kids and babies the ira killed. They needed stopped and thank god the were and thank his god the bravery of those young men who protected us

How was pointing a gun at a 7 year old saving anyone? They would need to have searched him.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

How is it baiting? The GFA legitimized NI as part of the UK. In response to SIPO MLD admitted there is a British and Irish SF and British SF have worked for Westminster ever since. Insecure Republicans need to come to terms with what the realities of the GFA are.

The GFA didn't legitimise it, the GFA provided a mechanism where people could agree to respect the wishes of a majority, while still
If you knew anything about it you would know that is why it succeeded. Those aspiring to to Irish unity had their aspirations legitimised in the unique agreement. MLMD stated the obvious, that SF operate in two jurisdictions.

That you use a familiar belligerent Unionist taunt is no surprise really.

jm08

jh79 wrote: »

How is it baiting? The GFA legitimized NI as part of the UK. In response to SIPO MLD admitted there is a British and Irish SF and British SF have worked for Westminster ever since. Insecure Republicans need to come to terms with what the realities of the GFA are.

So, according to you, Northern Ireland was not legitimate up to the GFA?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The GFA didn't legitimise it, the GFA provided a mechanism where people could agree to respect the wishes of a majority, while still
If you knew anything about it you would know that is why it succeeded. Those aspiring to to Irish unity had their aspirations legitimised in the unique agreement. MLMD stated the obvious, that SF operate in two jurisdictions.

That you use a familiar belligerent Unionist taunt is no surprise really.

Yes the GFA provided a mechanism to respect the wishes of the majority and currently that is that NI is part of the UK. Downcow saying he is a British person living in the UK is a fact that needs to be respected as per the GFA. It's not "baiting".

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Yes the GFA provided a mechanism to respect the wishes of the majority and currently that is that NI is part of the UK. Downcow saying he is a British person living in the UK is a fact that needs to be respected as per the GFA. It's not "baiting".

downcow isn't British, downcow 'identifies as British'.

That needs to be respected too.

jh79

jm08 wrote: »

So, according to you, Northern Ireland was not legitimate up to the GFA?

It's sovereignty was disputed by the Republic up until the GFA. You'll have to make your own mind up on that.

While insecure Republicans might pretend otherwise since the GFA there is no longer any ambiguity. It's British as long as the citizens want it to be and all parties bar the dissidents have accepted this. Having an aspiration to change it doesn't change the fact that having agreed to the GFA you have accepted that NI is British.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

downcow isn't British, downcow 'identifies as British'.

That needs to be respected too.

No different than MON or any other NI Republican who identifies as Irish. Their is no hierarchy except in the heads of insecure Republicans.

If you want to be pedantic at least be consistent and refer to those in the North that identify as Irish in the same manner.

jm08

jh79 wrote: »

It's sovereignty was disputed by the Republic up until the GFA. You'll have to make your own mind up on that.

And that was exchanged for the Irish Government having a say in NI affairs which up to then was completely denied by the British Gov. Remember, ''Out, Out, Out.''

While insecure Republicans might pretend otherwise since the GFA there is no longer any ambiguity. It's British as long as the citizens want it to be and all parties bar the dissidents have accepted this. Having an aspiration to change it doesn't change the fact that having agreed to the GFA you have accepted that NI is British.

The recognition works both ways. Unionists would claim that up to the GFA anyone from NI was British - they now recognise that they can be ''Irish, British or both.''

BonnieSituation

chrissb8 wrote: »

Anytime I'm passing through the North I am instantly filled with a sense of waste. Violence, death lines drawn in the sand that became trenches soon enough, and still the same state of affairs.

The UK doesn't care about them and the republic is not too fussed either. A weird world within its own wherein the population seem to be stuck in a conflict that both sides aren't too sure of anymore as more time passes but continue with a cold war-like intensity none the less.

A big failure in my mind and when people say it's better than it was. Well yes, not having to worry about paramilitary/military activity and bombs is certainly an upgrade.

Speaking for us all are ya?

maccored

downcow wrote: »

So now it’s a coach full of women?
Anyhow let me try again with you and if I patronise you then so be it as I am not sure you are getting why this would happen.

I missed the year but I am guessing it was in the troubles.
As for your trip being women; a major tactic of the ira was planting incendiary devices in department stores. Most of these came in in women’s handbags or tucked into prams etc. Many of them came along with shopping trips from the south.
That soldier would have been briefed either that day or very recently with suspects and info from informers about who to look out for. Whilst lying in the ditch he would use his rifle sights to scan the buses and cars looking for known republicans (and yes that could certainly include ira bomber women operating under the cover of a shopping trip).
So it’s completely logical to me that ha would scan along his side of the coach looking for suspects. (I do completely understand that that could appear to a young boy in the coach as threatening)

But remember the outcome of missing these bombers getting through. Babies murdered in prams, unborn children blown up, young girls blown to pieces.

Growing up in my community which was under attack from some of your community I have to say. Yes I understand your problem that day but you need to just get over it. That soldiers same actions, maybe with the next car or bus, may have saved a seven year old in banbridge getting blown to pieces.

Some of you guys need to get real. Have a dig and see how many kids and babies the ira killed. They needed stopped and thank god the were and thank his god the bravery of those young men who protected us

growing up in my community it was very common for soldiers to aim their guns at you as you walked down the street. first time they done it to me, I was 9, and walking on my own to school. they continued to do that any time I'd walk down the street until I left the place.

All they were trying to do was intimidate, and considering that probably many of those people they pointed guns at went on to join the IRA, it was a bit of a stupid idea

ELM327

jh79 wrote: »

It's sovereignty was disputed by the Republic up until the GFA. You'll have to make your own mind up on that.

While insecure Republicans might pretend otherwise since the GFA there is no longer any ambiguity. It's British as long as the citizens want it to be and all parties bar the dissidents have accepted this. Having an aspiration to change it doesn't change the fact that having agreed to the GFA you have accepted that NI is British.

NI is many things, but it is not and will never be british. Britain and all derivatives refer to the landmass to the right of this island.
NI is currently a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.


Unionists can identify as British if they wish, but they are no more british than canadians or australians. They live in a part of Ireland that is part of the United Kingdom. Not Britain. That "small detail" will prove very important in the months to come as trade diverges between GB and NI.

jh79 wrote: »

How is it baiting? The GFA legitimized NI as part of the UK. In response to SIPO MLD admitted there is a British and Irish SF and British SF have worked for Westminster ever since. Insecure Republicans need to come to terms with what the realities of the GFA are.

It's baiting using such well known terms known to flame war.

My family was shot at by the british army in the north. People on the other side were blown up by republicans. Those days are behind us now and need to remain there. No one wants a return to the troubles.


The realities of the GFA (which was opposed by the DUP) are that it allows some self determination to the NI Region. Both communities are enable to identify as they wish, Irish (although living in part of the UK) or British (although not living in Britain). There is also a mechanism for a border poll.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

No different than MON or any other NI Republican who identifies as Irish. Their is no hierarchy except in the heads of insecure Republicans.

If you want to be pedantic at least be consistent and refer to those in the North that identify as Irish in the same manner.

They were born in Ireland jh79.
NI was NEVER a part of Britain and never will be.

downcow

chrissb8 wrote: »

Anytime I'm passing through the North I am instantly filled with a sense of waste. Violence, death lines drawn in the sand that became trenches soon enough, and still the same state of affairs.

The UK doesn't care about them and the republic is not too fussed either. A weird world within its own wherein the population seem to be stuck in a conflict that both sides aren't too sure of anymore as more time passes but continue with a cold war-like intensity none the less.

A big failure in my mind and when people say it's better than it was. Well yes, not having to worry about paramilitary/military activity and bombs is certainly an upgrade.

You may like blaming the people of ni 100%, but from where I am looking, if some of your country folk took your advice and ended the conflict from their perspective and left us alone I think we’d have a better place. Still a very large number in the south fantasise about have jurisdiction over their neighbour. That needs to stop. Britain stopped it in the 26 counties now Roi need to stop it in ni

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

No but you are British living in an Irish nation. Again you wont answer why British people living in Great Britain are living within the English Welsh or Scottish nations but British people in Ireland are not living with in the Irish nation. This does not make sence and you have not explained it.

Can unionists with your views follow 6 nations rugby? What team do they support in the 6 nations? or can unionist not follow the 6 nations as they have no representation as they dont see themselves as part of the Irish nation

Your starting point is rediculous. You want to start be assuming ni is part of the Irish nation. The United Nations says it’s not. The gfa says it’s not. The Eu says it’s not. Even your own bloody government says it’s not, but we still have to listen to posters on here who use as their starting point that ni is in the Irish nation

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

Can unionists with your views follow 6 nations rugby? What team do they support in the 6 nations? or can unionist not follow the 6 nations as they have no representation as they dont see themselves as part of the Irish nation

This is very mixed.
Grammar school boys seem to be able to swallow hard, tighten their ass cheeks and stand for the Irish anthem etc. I can’t get my head around how they do. Lots of DUP supporters follow Ireland.
Personally I have zero interest in them. I have honestly sat down with the intention of trying to support them as the Ulster boys play in the team, but by the time the anthems are played I have decided it’s not for me.
I don’t hate them, they are just not my team.

downcow

ELM327 wrote: »

This is simply baiting. You're bordering on the ridiculous quotes from the 80's -90's unionists on the Garvaghy Road, "the queens people want to walk the queens highway".


I hope you are being intentionally agressive. If not, your breed of unionism is the reason why a UI and an independant scotland are closer now than ever.


As it stands, NI as a region has done well in the past 20 years to live in a fragile peace. Sentiments like yours (and equally hardline nationalism) are not welcome.

You highlight ‘as a British person living in the UK’ and then rant about my post.
You need to have a long think about who the bigot is. You seem to think I am baiting by saying ’as a British person living in the UK’. That is exactly what I am. Tell me do you think I am not?

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

Your starting point is rediculous. You want to start be assuming ni is part of the Irish nation. The United Nations says it’s not. The gfa says it’s not. The Eu says it’s not. Even your own bloody government says it’s not, but we still have to listen to posters on here who use as their starting point that ni is in the Irish nation

Is that best you can do. As stated multiple times a nation does not equal a sovereign state. UN lists Sovereign states. I am not calling Ireland a sovereign state but a Nation, in the same way England Scotland and Wales are nations but not sovereign states.

And you yet again have not answered the question if British people on Great Britian can be part of the English, Scottish or Welsh nations why cant British people who live in Ireland be part of the Irish nation? Third time I have asked you this .... will you duck and dive for a third time?

Why according to you do British people in NI get one identity less than British living in GB?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

downcow isn't British, downcow 'identifies as British'.

That needs to be respected too.

Now this is ridiculous. I have a british passport.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Your starting point is rediculous. You want to start be assuming ni is part of the Irish nation. The United Nations says it’s not. The gfa says it’s not. The Eu says it’s not. Even your own bloody government says it’s not, but we still have to listen to posters on here who use as their starting point that ni is in the Irish nation

I don't think anyone would claim that Northern Ireland is part of the Irish nation. Neither is it part of the British nation. Thats because it is a territory, not a people.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

And that was exchanged for the Irish Government having a say in NI affairs which up to then was completely denied by the British Gov. Remember, ''Out, Out, Out.''





The recognition works both ways. Unionists would claim that up to the GFA anyone from NI was British - they now recognise that they can be ''Irish, British or both.''

I honestly don’t know a single unionist who ever claimed the likes Gerry or Martin were british or any nationalist for that matter. That was in your paranoid head.

downcow

maccored wrote: »

growing up in my community it was very common for soldiers to aim their guns at you as you walked down the street. first time they done it to me, I was 9, and walking on my own to school. they continued to do that any time I'd walk down the street until I left the place.

All they were trying to do was intimidate, and considering that probably many of those people they pointed guns at went on to join the IRA, it was a bit of a stupid idea

And that was very wrong. All the parties in the no conflict were intimidating each other’s community and it was wrong.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I honestly don’t know a single unionist who ever claimed the likes Gerry or Martin were british or any nationalist for that matter. That was in your paranoid head.

Well, it was a contentious issue in the GFA.

downcow

ELM327 wrote: »

NI is many things, but it is not and will never be british. Britain and all derivatives refer to the landmass to the right of this island.
NI is currently a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.


Unionists can identify as British if they wish, but they are no more british than canadians or australians. They live in a part of Ireland that is part of the United Kingdom. Not Britain. That "small detail" will prove very important in the months to come as trade diverges between GB and NI.




It's baiting using such well known terms known to flame war.

My family was shot at by the british army in the north. People on the other side were blown up by republicans. Those days are behind us now and need to remain there. No one wants a return to the troubles.


The realities of the GFA (which was opposed by the DUP) are that it allows some self determination to the NI Region. Both communities are enable to identify as they wish, Irish (although living in part of the UK) or British (although not living in Britain). There is also a mechanism for a border poll.

This is all nice wolly stuff but a court recently ruled on the reality.
Everyone born in ni is british, they then can claim Irish as their nationality if they wish, but british they are at birth. Unless of course the court can be added to all the other bodies I mentioned earlier as another one that doesn’t know it’s arse from its elbow.

Guys you have a massive majority on here who stick to the same story about me being Irish, but that doesn’t make you anymore right. I have every relevant institution and court on my side, so it’s not even an argument. I saying I am baiting when I claim my nationality doesn’t make you right either

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

Is that best you can do. As stated multiple times a nation does not equal a sovereign state. UN lists Sovereign states. I am not calling Ireland a sovereign state but a Nation, in the same way England Scotland and Wales are nations but not sovereign states.

And you yet again have not answered the question if British people on Great Britian can be part of the English, Scottish or Welsh nations why cant British people who live in Ireland be part of the Irish nation? Third time I have asked you this .... will you duck and dive for a third time?

Why according to you do British people in NI get one identity less than British living in GB?

I’ll try again.
I am british and Northern Irish.
All this talk of nations not following international boundaries seems a crazy position. Is part of England in the scottish nation and vice versa. We could argue for ever about where lines used to be. There is hardly a border in the world that you won’t get someone disputing.
I am really not sure how to answer you. You are blurring the lines between nations in international law and romantic nations. Ni is not a nation in international law but I can claim it as a nation in my head in the same way as you want to claim 36 counties as a nation.

How long does somewhere need to exist in history to be one of these nations of yours ?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Now this is ridiculous. I have a british passport.

And you can have an Irish one too...what is your point?

NI is not and NEVER was in Britain or a part of Brtiain. Britain itself kept you separate.

Own it. You are who you are, somebody born in Ireland, who identifies as British, which you have every right to do.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

This is all nice silly stuff but a court recently ruled on the reality.
Everyone born in ni is british, they then can claim Irish as their nationality if they wish, but british they are at birth. Unless of course the court can be added to all the other bodies I mentioned earlier as another one that doesn’t know it’s arse from its elbow.

Courts rule on existing legislation. It just points to the British Gov. failing to fully legislate the GFA.

chrissb8

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Speaking for us all are ya?

Yes. We couldn't handle it economically, administratively and above all the social backlash if the republic inherited the 6 counties.

From the perspective of having a united Ireland it would be great, in terms of logically having it happen without any hiccups, huge problems..no. So yeah, I speak from a point of view that Ireland wouldn't come running if N.Ireland wanted out of the UK.

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

I’ll try again.
I am british and Northern Irish.
All this talk of nations not following international boundaries seems a crazy position. Is part of England in the scottish nation and vice versa. We could argue for ever about where lines used to be. There is hardly a border in the world that you won’t get someone disputing.
I am really not sure how to answer you. You are blurring the lines between nations in international law and romantic nations. Ni is not a nation in international law but I can claim it as a nation in my head in the same way as you want to claim 36 counties as a nation.

How long does somewhere need to exist in history to be one of these nations of yours ?

Great so you are a British citizen as you live within the UK and you are Irish as you are from the geographical area of Ireland. In the same way a person from the geographical area of England is a British citizen and also English. So unionist in Ireland can support the Irish Rugby team and celebrate the Patron Saint of Ireland St. Patrick in the same way an English person can support the English rugby team and celebrate their patron St George.