Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

FrancieBrady

ittakestwo wrote: »

Great so you are a British citizen as you live within the UK and you are Irish as you are from the geographical area of Ireland. In the same way a person from the geographical area of England is a British citizen and also English. So unionist in Ireland can support the Irish Rugby team and celebrate the Patron Saint of Ireland St. Patrick in the same way an English person can support the English rugby team and celebrate their patron St George.

Modern belligerent Unionism is in denial of stuff like this. It's another cul de sac they have chosen to go into.

Headless stuff.

droidman123

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Modern belligerent Unionism is in denial of stuff like this. It's another cul de sac they have chosen to go into.

Headless stuff.

Just to save me trawling back through the thread,did you ever get a reply from DC about what the culture difference is between unionists and nationalists?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And you can have an Irish one too...what is your point?

NI is not and NEVER was in Britain or a part of Brtiain. Britain itself kept you separate.

Own it. You are who you are, somebody born in Ireland, who identifies as British, which you have every right to do.

Francie this is what you said a few posts back.

downcow isn't British, downcow 'identifies as British'.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie this is what you said a few posts back.

downcow isn't British, downcow 'identifies as British'.

How can you be 'British' when you were not born in Britain?

Finty Lemon

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How can you be 'British' when you were not born in Britain?

If you have a British passport.
How did you get on in Blackrock? Quieter than the last one

ncounties

As someone who agrees with the title of this thread, I clicked on it. Read the first two pages, and was really surprised it was allowed to continue. What a hateful dump of a thread.

FrancieBrady

Finty Lemon wrote: »

If you have a British passport.

I have a friend who has an Irish passport but they most certainly are not Irish, nor wuld ever claim to be. He is 'Irish' for residency/admin/convenience though. It wasn't convenient for Britain to keep NI fully in the UK for admin reasons. These things are movable feasts, where you are born isn't though.

How did you get on in Blackrock? Quieter than the last one

What?

BonnieSituation

chrissb8 wrote: »

Yes. We couldn't handle it economically, administratively and above all the social backlash if the republic inherited the 6 counties.

From the perspective of having a united Ireland it would be great, in terms of logically having it happen without any hiccups, huge problems..no. So yeah, I speak from a point of view that Ireland wouldn't come running if N.Ireland wanted out of the UK.

Cool cool.

That bold part literally ignores the last 22 years of the GFA world we live in. But yeah, cool.

Well, I guess when the day comes you get to vote no to reunification and join your fellow partitionists and unionists on the wrong side of history.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have a friend who has an Irish passport but they most certainly are not Irish, nor wuld ever claim to be. He is 'Irish' for residency/admin/convenience though. It wasn't convenient for Britain to keep NI fully in the UK for admin reasons. These things are movable feasts, where you are born isn't though.


What?

McKevitt's funeral. Finty is a cad.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

McKevitt's funeral. Finty is a cad.

Ah right. Thought it was something childish alright.

Finty Lemon

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How can you be 'British' when you were not born in Britain?

British pertains to citizens of the UK of GB an NI, its overseas territories and Crown dependencies. That is quite clear.
People from NI can be British. The people of Ireland agreed this principle in the Good Friday Agreement

FrancieBrady

Finty Lemon wrote: »

British pertains to citizens of the UK of GB an NI, its overseas territories and Crown dependencies. That is quite clear.
People from NI can be British. The people of Ireland agreed this principle in the Good Friday Agreement

They can choose to be British, just like Scottish people or Welsh people or Falkland Islanders can...and nobody has a problem with that. It's an identity. The island/place of your birth is a physical actual thing and nobody changed the name of this island.

Finty Lemon

They can choose to be Irish.

And their birthright is to be recognised as either. So these folk are British by birth, by law, by consensus.
By definition.

FrancieBrady

Finty Lemon wrote: »

They can choose to be Irish.

And their birthright is to be recognised as either. So these folk are British by birth, by law, by consensus.
By definition.

Because they chose to be and nobody objects to that.
Irish people just are, they don't need to do diddly. Born in Ireland = Irish.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because they chose to be and nobody objects to that.
Irish people just are, they don't need to do diddly. Born in Ireland = Irish.

Not what the courts say. The legal position is that if you are born in ni you are british. We are all happy that you are rightly entitled to also claim your Irish identity. But, like me, if you don’t officially claim it you remain british

downcow

If ni won its independence and called its self bongo bongo land, what would you say our nationality would be then?
Irish, british or bongobongoish?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Not what the courts say. The legal position is that if you are born in ni you are british. We are all happy that you are rightly entitled to also claim your Irish identity. But, like me, if you don’t officially claim it you remain british

British courts downcow.

I have no issue with you claiming your British identity...I keep saying this. This country has many many people who do. And many of British heritage - just as many in Britain have Irish heritage...i.e. we share common heritage.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

British courts downcow.

I have no issue with you claiming your British identity...I keep saying this. This country has many many people who do. And many of British heritage - just as many in Britain have Irish heritage...i.e. we share common heritage.

The thing is we don’t need to claim it. It’s their as a right. Those who want to be Irish can claim their irishness.

I am quite happy that me, the courts, the UN, the EU, the UK, the ROI constitution all agree.
And you should be reassured that junkyard Tom , Bonnie, jo8, and a few other posters agree with you.

So let’s all be happy

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

The thing is we don’t need to claim it. It’s their as a right. Those who want to be Irish can claim their irishness.

I am quite happy that me, the courts, the UN, the EU, the UK, the ROI constitution all agree.
And you should be reassured that junkyard Tom , Bonnie, jo8, and a few other posters agree with you.

So let’s all be happy

You have the right to identify as British. Nobody has said anything different.
Scottish people, Welsh people and English people have the same rights, as have Jamaicans, and a myriad of other former colonies citizens.

P.S. That's my last word on the subject by the way. You know my position at this stage.

maccored

Finty Lemon wrote: »

If you have a British passport.
How did you get on in Blackrock? Quieter than the last one

you mean the passports that say 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'? ..... which is a UK passport, not a British one.

it says 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Does not say 'Great Britain, which includes Northern Ireland'. You can identify as being from the UK - but not British (which of course you can, but it leads to the same issue as the north isnt actually in Britain).

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

If ni won its independence and called its self bongo bongo land, what would you say our nationality would be then?
Irish, british or bongobongoish?

Irish. It's still Ireland. It'll still be Ireland in a thousand years. I've little doubt that Unionists like you would still avoid describing yourself as Irish despite having lived in Ireland as Irish people for centuries.

I feel bad for you.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Irish. It's still Ireland. It'll still be Ireland in a thousand years. I've little doubt that Unionists like you would still avoid describing yourself as Irish despite having lived in Ireland as Irish people for centuries.

I feel bad for you.

It's only a recent development and downcow represents it. Unionists had no problems being defined as Irish a few decades ago. Ian Paisley's, David Trimble's generation had no issues with it if anyone wants to research it. It is sad. But sad as it is, things won't change as you say.

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

But sad as it is, things won't change as you say.

It's a consequence of partition and the problems it caused. A couple of generations after unification and the vast majority of those from a Unionist background will describe themselves as Irish again.

chrissb8

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Cool cool.

That bold part literally ignores the last 22 years of the GFA world we live in. But yeah, cool.

Well, I guess when the day comes you get to vote no to reunification and join your fellow partitionists and unionists on the wrong side of history.

What? The Good Friday agreement? Where does that fit in with the fact that N.Ireland is still all those things I said.

Still societal problems, still a bad economy, an administrative nightmare in terms of costs, repurposing. Think about it. How much infrastructure would have to be put in place for N.Ireland to become a cohesive part of the republic?

Just think a little deeper and don't let blind jingoism get in the way. Can the republic really handle that strain in the next few years?

There is a lot in N.Ireland that would need to come along in order to have a peaceful, prosperous transition.

And no I am not a unionist or "on the wrong side of history".

If I could vote tomorrow for unification I would straight up say no. For the reasons above. Don't get me wrong I want to have a united Ireland. But we're not there yet.

FrancieBrady

chrissb8 wrote: »

What? The Good Friday agreement? Where does that fit in with the fact that N.Ireland is still all those things I said.

Still societal problems, still a bad economy, an administrative nightmare in terms of costs, repurposing. Think about it. How much infrastructure would have to be put in place for N.Ireland to become a cohesive part of the republic?

Just think a little deeper and don't let blind jingoism get in the way. Can the republic really handle that strain in the next few years?

There is a lot in N.Ireland that would need to come along in order to have a peaceful, prosperous transition.

And no I am not a unionist or "on the wrong side of history".

If I could vote tomorrow for unification I would straight up say no. For the reasons above. Don't get me wrong I want to have a united Ireland. But we're not there yet.

Northern Ireland was destroyed by decades of a stupid partition. That has to be fixed ahead of unification or at least partly fixed.
And it isn't really that big an issue as it is fairly obvious what the problems are.

BonnieSituation

chrissb8 wrote: »

What? The Good Friday agreement? Where does that fit in with the fact that N.Ireland is still all those things I said.

Still societal problems, still a bad economy, an administrative nightmare in terms of costs, repurposing. Think about it. How much infrastructure would have to be put in place for N.Ireland to become a cohesive part of the republic?

Just think a little deeper and don't let blind jingoism get in the way. Can the republic really handle that strain in the next few years?

There is a lot in N.Ireland that would need to come along in order to have a peaceful, prosperous transition.

And no I am not a unionist or "on the wrong side of history".

If I could vote tomorrow for unification I would straight up say no. For the reasons above. Don't get me wrong I want to have a united Ireland. But we're not there yet.

You're a Partitionist. I mentioned that. It's okay, own it.

When will we be there?

Essentially you want the symptoms of partition to be cured before we end partition. Can you see the problem with that approach?

chrissb8

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're a Partitionist. I mentioned that. It's okay, own it.

When will we be there?

Essentially you want the symptoms of partition to be cured before we end partition. Can you see the problem with that approach?

Stop trying to tell me what and what I'm not. And turning what is an extremely complex issue into a binary you are or you're not.

I would like to see a plan first. A proposed agreement and a plan to see success in N.Ireland. Which is heavily reliant on the pubic sector with a contracting private sector.

A fiscal package to bring N.Ireland into the fold. Guarantees to ensure all communities in N.Ireland they will be included and not discriminated against in the process.

As the fact is, unionists, protestants are not just going to up and leave their communities. And on that point how does Ireland even go about handling such a delicate issue? Someone is going to feel partitioned either way so there has to be in effect some appeasement on that issue.

Can you not see it is a multi-faceted issue just as murky and ambiguous as the very border lines that define N.Ireland.

It is a lot of work and years of toil and would not be satisfied to just see it happen suddenly or in a quick manner. We are the taxpayers, and we will foot a large brunt of the pandora's box.

Your line of thinking alarms me in that it doesn't really actually consider the reality and implications to us as a nation and the potential for the harm it could cause.

BonnieSituation

chrissb8 wrote: »

Stop trying to tell me what and what I'm not. And turning what is an extremely complex issue into a binary you are or you're not.

You want partition to continue thus you are a Partitionist. It's not that difficult to make that determination.

I would like to see a plan first. A proposed agreement and a plan to see success in N.Ireland. Which is heavily reliant on the pubic sector with a contracting private sector.

Can you be more vague please?

A fiscal package to bring N.Ireland into the fold.

Right? I thought you didn't want to pay through the nose. What do you mean by fiscal package?

Into what fold?

Guarantees to ensure all communities in N.Ireland they will be included and not discriminated against in the process.

Oh right, so ending vetoes then? That's a good idea.

Who do you think will be discriminating against who?

As the fact is, unionists, protestants are not just going to up and leave their communities.

Who's saying that's gonna happen? What are you on about?

And on that point how does Ireland even go about handling such a delicate issue?

What issue is that?

Someone is going to feel partitioned either way so there has to be in effect some appeasement on that issue.

How would you propose to appease people who feel "partitioned" after a democratic vote in both jurisdictions?

Do you reckon the pogroms of 1920 will be reimplemented by nationalists? Will there be demonstrations of triumphalism? Perhaps we'll take away the vote. That'll learn em.

Can you not see it is a multi-faceted issue just as murky and ambiguous as the very border lines that define N.Ireland.

Good thing you're here to inform me. Jesus.

It is a lot of work and years of toil and would not be satisfied to just see it happen. We are the taxpayers, and we will foot a large brunt of the pandora's box.

What about your 'fiscal package'?

Your line of thinking alarms me in that it doesn't really actually consider the reality and implications to us as a nation and the potential for the harm it could cause.

Sure, I have never considered the realities before you came along and showed me. /s

Honestly...

Junkyard Tom

chrissb8 wrote: »

SCan you not see it is a multi-faceted issue just as murky and ambiguous as the very border lines that define N.Ireland.

It is a complex issue but you are considering it bass-ackwardly. The problems in the northeast stem from partition so the starting point of solving them is ending partition.

This is a long term project, we've been at it for hundreds of years, so people like yourself expecting a 'perfect solution' are simply leaving the issue for future generations because you don't want the bother.

chrissb8

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It is a complex issue but you are considering it bass-ackwardly. The problems in the northeast stem from partition so the starting point of solving them is ending partition.

This is a long term project, we've been at it for hundreds of years, so people like yourself expecting a 'perfect solution' are simply leaving the issue for future generations because you don't want the bother.

I'm not looking for the perfect solution as a voter. I'm looking for the best solution giving the circumstances and then take it from there.

A decentralisation process where there is a 'changing of guards' between the UK and Ireland would be done in a process of years.

Partitioning is the main root of these problems. But that's just it, those problems aren't just going to dissipate or solve themselves out.

If the GFA can take years to deliver on I don't think I'm asking for too much as a voter to have a roadmap in place to ensure an acceptable level of harmony is ensured.

Basically, I am all for a united Ireland. But not right now or even in a few years, unless the above is considered.