Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

RobMc59

Fionn1952 wrote: »

.....care to point out where I called you a Brexiteer, let alone a Right Wing Fascist, Rob? I've made no comment on the rights or wrongs of Brexit, I certainly haven't said anything about standing up for your country (though I would be wary of anyone who defends absolutely anything their country will do just to 'stick up for their country'). I commented on your idiotic Daily Express style take; blaming an issue entirely caused by a UK decision on anyone but the UK. Serious reek of, 'poor me' to try and strawman that into me calling you a fascist.

Ireland aren't playing silly buggers over where a vessel lands its catch, they've been caught on the backfoot by an agreement made at very short notice due to the UK, based on a decision to leave the EU, made by the UK and the relevant minister has stated they're working on a solution. I don't give a damn if you support Brexit, but don't play silly buggers yourself while pointing the finger. If you want to stick up for your country, own the consequences of your country's decision.

Who else apart from brexit supporting right wing fascists-oh and Irish posters reads the daily express,although some of the bizarrely ridiculous headlines are entertaining.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

Who else apart from brexit supporting right wing fascists-oh and Irish posters reads the daily express,although some of the bizarrely ridiculous headlines are entertaining.

I at no point said you read the Daily Express, I compared your post to the sort of tripe they serve up.

I said, "It's Daily Express levels of idiot spin" followed by
"idiotic Daily Express type soundbites that don't hold up to even the most basic levels of scrutiny....".

It is incredibly facetious to read that and accuse me of calling you a right wing fascist, Rob.

Are you feigning offense to avoid actually replying to the meat of those posts highlighting that you jumped in with a soundbite without actually reading the article?

BonnieSituation

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I at no point said you read the Daily Express, I compared your post to the sort of tripe they serve up.

I said, "It's Daily Express levels of idiot spin" followed by
"idiotic Daily Express type soundbites that don't hold up to even the most basic levels of scrutiny....".

It is incredibly facetious to read that and accuse me of calling you a right wing fascist, Rob.

Are you feigning offense to avoid actually replying to the meat of those posts highlighting that you jumped in with a soundbite without actually reading the article?

Of course he is. That's his MO.

He'll scurry off now for a few days and come back in with some other 'gotcha' next week.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You trust FF too much downcow. Senior FGer putting his cards on the table today too.

Time to get nervous I would suggest downcow. Pro UI leader in waiting in FF and now FG's next in line coming out pro the idea in his political lifetime.

Every single person in Roi can stand and stump their feet. The gfa gives us total control in ni if staying in UK. So ff fg etc can do nothing

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

Every single person in Roi can stand and stump their feet. The gfa gives us total control in ni if staying in UK. So ff fg etc can do nothing

It is up to the secretary of state of Northern Ireland to call a border poll. No party in either jurisdiction can call one or stop one happening.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Every single person in Roi can stand and stump their feet. The gfa gives us total control in ni if staying in UK. So ff fg etc can do nothing

Ha ha ha...this is from the people who thought they could Brexit without anyone else having a say.
These are the people in denial of a border down the middle of the Irish sea where it was before Britain stretched it's colonial muscle.

If Dublin says jump downcow, you guys, or rather your masters ask, how high? They pretended they were not doing that, to you and Arlene, (Brandon Lewis id still doing it) but we got what we wanted, the border in the Irish sea.

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ha ha ha...this is from the people who thought they could Brexit without anyone else having a say.
These are the people in denial of a border down the middle of the Irish sea where it was before Britain stretched it's colonial muscle.

If Dublin says jump downcow, you guys, or rather your masters ask, how high? They pretended they were not doing that, to you and Arlene, (Brandon Lewis id still doing it) but we got what we wanted, the border in the Irish sea.

I'm bored senseless with these spats with Dowcow, but I don't think this type of triumphalist nonsense does us any good either, Francie.

The likes of Dowcow will never be persuaded, the likes of Rob will never have a vote. There's nothing to be gained in putting down people like this, but this sort of petty, 'up yours' nonsense doesn't have good optics for the small u unionists who can be convinced.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'm bored senseless with these spats with Dowcow, but I don't think this type of triumphalist nonsense does us any good either, Francie.

The likes of Dowcow will never be persuaded, the likes of Rob will never have a vote. There's nothing to be gained in putting down people like this, but this sort of petty, 'up yours' nonsense doesn't have good optics for the small u unionists who can be convinced.

Fair enough Fionn, I've had a lifetime of belligerent Unionists masquerading as moderates.
I will mock who I like thank you very much.

There is nothing triumphalist in what I said...I was telling the very same downcow, how this would end literally years ago. His 'future' is not with those who will lie to him, it is with those who will be honest with him.
Will Unionism learn that lesson?

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fair enough Fionn, I've had a lifetime of belligerent Unionists masquerading as moderates.
I will mock who I like thank you very much.

There is nothing triumphalist in what I said...I was telling the very same downcow, how this would end literally years ago. His 'future' is not with those who will lie to him, it is with those who will be honest with him.
Will Unionism learn that lesson?

Jesus Francie, you grew up on the other side of the border, you didn't have half of it compared with us on the other side. I sympathise, but I'm trying to do better than was done to me.

Mock who you want, but remember that middle ground is there to be convinced and it won't be achieved by sneering and laughing at others failures. When you put the hand out, you can extend it in friendship, or you can slap someone in the face. The belligerent Unionist/Loyalist will never be convinced, but the, 'ha ha ha' attitude only serves to alienate that middle ground who can be convinced by encouraging silo mentalities.

I suspect hardline Unionism won't learn that lesson, so it's down to others to convince them on the alternative, not laugh at the mistake in the first place.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Jesus Francie, you grew up on the other side of the border, you didn't have half of it compared with us on the other side. I sympathise, but I'm trying to do better than was done to me.

Mock who you want, but remember that middle ground is there to be convinced and it won't be achieved by sneering and laughing at others failures. When you put the hand out, you can extend it in friendship, or you can slap someone in the face. The belligerent Unionist/Loyalist will never be convinced, but the, 'ha ha ha' attitude only serves to alienate that middle ground who can be convinced by encouraging silo mentalities.

I suspect hardline Unionism won't learn that lesson, so it's down to others to convince them on the alternative, not laugh at the mistake in the first place.

Stop patronising me and the 'middle ground' Fionn. You speak of both as if they had no minds of their own.

People know when somebody is pivoting all over the shop trying to spin a victory.

Junkyard Tom

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I don't think this type of triumphalist nonsense does us any good

It doesn't but it's hard not to feel schadenfreude. Those shitting the bed over the 'border' in the Irish Sea are the same fuckers who were creaming themselves at the thought of a hard border in Ireland again.

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Stop patronising me and the 'middle ground' Fionn. You speak of both as if they had no minds of their own.

People know when somebody is pivoting all over the shop trying to spin a victory.

Quite the opposite, Francie. I'm fully aware they have a mind of their own, and I'm confident that a significant cohort won't be convinced by your lauding sh*te like this over the soft Unionists among their numbers.

You seem to be of the opinion that we can just tiocfadh them into unification by repeatedly telling them what idiots they are?

Fionn1952

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It doesn't but it's hard not to feel schadenfreude. Those shitting the bed over the 'border' in the Irish Sea are the same fuckers who were creaming themselves at the thought of a hard border in Ireland again.

Aye, I can't argue too much with that, and I've certainly been guilty of it offline when I don't have a bit more time to consider my responses, but like I said, those aren't the people we are going to convince, it's the soft middle ground who could easily be pushed away by those attitudes that I'm happy to bite my tongue for.

PeteEd

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

Yeeeeoooowwww ye wee arguing ballbegs!
Pulls the grenade pin and facks away off to find cover.

Text accompanying this photo on NYE
"100 years of the finest wee country there ever was and ever will be. Happy New Year"

Reworking of a 100+ year old quote
PeteEd 9 January 2021
"I am a Northern Irish Man today and every day that has passed me and every future day that i am yet to behold.
I know that I would rather be a Northern Irish Man than anything else in the world."

Here's to the next 100 years and beyond, the finest wee country there ever was and ever will be

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where are you getting that from - increase in pop with only 10% increase in GDP?

Google says NI GDP is around 40bn, the Republic is about 390 bn.

downcow

PeteEd wrote: »

Yeeeeoooowwww ye wee arguing ballbegs!
Pulls the grenade pin and facks away off to find cover.

Text accompanying this photo on NYE
"100 years of the finest wee country there ever was and ever will be. Happy New Year"

Reworking of a 100+ year old quote
PeteEd 9 January 2021
"I am a Northern Irish Man today and every day that has passed me and every future day that i am yet to behold.
I know that I would rather be a Northern Irish Man than anything else in the world."

Here's to the next 100 years and beyond, the finest wee country there ever was and ever will be

Yeah it’s how many feel and not 100 miles from my feelings.
The problem is many on here despise ni folk for being proud of our wee country.
I have no issue with republicans aspirations to take us over - it’s a reasonable aspiration. The bit I don’t get is this continual putting ni down and ‘99 years failure’ etc and yet they crave for Having us as part of their country.
Ni has had many difficulties and challenges but we have so much going for us and are continuing to mature and develop.
We )like most countries in the world) have beautiful landscape and scenery, wonderful history and achievements of inventors etc, a unique history re conflict and cultures etc. And we punch above our weight in areas like sport etc.
Most of our people love our wee country, enjoy living in it and want it to remain their home. If that ever changes and the majority ever feel their quality of life and aspirations are better served in a united island, then the mechanisms are there to allow it to happen.
If there is one single thing that blows the title of this thread clean out of the water then it is exactly that. We are nearly unique that there is a mechanism in place to simply cease our wee country to exist and absorb it into its neighbour. It only takes one moment in time where our people need to feel that owc is a failure and we would be better of as part of the ‘success’ next door - and it’s done!
There is you evidence that the people of ni feel owc is more successful than Roi

Probably a good point to close the thread as that is the point disproved

Natterjack from Kerry

jh79 wrote: »

Where have I redefined what a majority is?

You claim the vast majority will vote yes. Is 51 / 57% a vast majority? 30% isn't even close to passing.

Where is the optimism coming from? There is no reason why a person wouldn't be truthful in an opinion poll.

Polls for many years to come are now of incidental interest only.

Brexit has pushed any real prospect of a unified island down the road so far that it is hardly worth discussing for a couple of generations. The prospect was there had Cameron not made his crucial mistake of a referendum. It was still slim, but possible in the next 20 years. But the nature of the Brexit deal has moved it at least a generation, more likely two, and possibly even off the agenda for the long term.

This possibility of it becoming of interest to sufficient middle ground NI voters was there while a hard Brexit with a fully integrated UK and border with Ireland was a possible outcome, so making reintegration with the EU and Ireland attractive.
But the deal means that NI has the best of both worlds. An Irish solution to an Irish problem. NI it is indeed having its cake and eating it now.
It can stay in the UK. It has the best possible trade and business arrangement with the UK (once it gets over the transition but that is only a transitory adaptation) of anyone in the world. And also has full access to Ireland and the EU. No other parcel of land is in such a privileged position. It is an extraordinarily fortunate outcome for Northern Ireland, and however Brexit works out for Britain, whatever the consequences of if for the EU, the sure winner in any future, is Northern Ireland. It is the envy of the world, and will now never have an interest in dismantling such an advantageous situation.

After a neat century, Brexit has to all intents and purposes, closed the discussion on a United Ireland.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Quite the opposite, Francie. I'm fully aware they have a mind of their own, and I'm confident that a significant cohort won't be convinced by your lauding sh*te like this over the soft Unionists among their numbers.

You seem to be of the opinion that we can just tiocfadh them into unification by repeatedly telling them what idiots they are?

No, I don't patronise people. I think people will know who I am having a go at. And I am having a go at the stupidity that got us and them here.
People are able to make their own minds up.
This idea that they can be scare/deterred because somebody speaks their mind is precious and demeaning in it's own way. You won't mollycoddle people either Fionn.

FrancieBrady

PeteEd wrote: »

Yeeeeoooowwww ye wee arguing ballbegs!
Pulls the grenade pin and facks away off to find cover.

Text accompanying this photo on NYE
"100 years of the finest wee country there ever was and ever will be. Happy New Year"

Reworking of a 100+ year old quote
PeteEd 9 January 2021
"I am a Northern Irish Man today and every day that has passed me and every future day that i am yet to behold.
I know that I would rather be a Northern Irish Man than anything else in the world."

Here's to the next 100 years and beyond, the finest wee country there ever was and ever will be

You'll still be a northern Irish man in the next 100 years too. Congrats!

ILoveYourVibes

I don't think saying things would be better for NI now without partition is tantamount to saying NI is a failure.

I think NI has many things going for it. I think the people have been through a lot and come out the other end. That in itself can be seen as a success.

Would they be better off without partition? Undoubtedly...that doesn't mean its a failure ..that is a harsh word.

FrancieBrady

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I don't think saying things would be better for NI now without partition is tantamount to saying NI is a failure.

I think NI has many things going for it. I think the people have been through a lot and come out the other end. That in itself can be seen as a success.

Would they be better off without partition? Undoubtedly...that doesn't mean its a failure ..that is a harsh word.

Sectarian bigoted rule from it's creation.
40 years of conflict/war
Cannot govern itself.
Needs an international agreement between 2 sovereign countries to function.
Large tracts of its urban society segregated.
Separated willing by it current masters in selfish deal resulting in a border down the Irish sea.


Your failure thresholds might need adjustment?

ILoveYourVibes

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your failure thresholds might need adjustment?

And it survived all that and made peace.

Just because it would be better without partition ...don't mean its a failure.

And ending partition ...would not change its current problems.

FrancieBrady

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

And it survived all that and made peace.

Just because it would be better without partition ...don't mean its a failure.

And ending partition ...would not change its current problems.

'Survived' at what cost?

The question was 'is it a failure'...over and over again the answer has been 'yes'.

Has it's society survived , yes it has...society has survived much much worse. But it had to be rebuilt.

ILoveYourVibes

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Survived' at what cost?

The question was 'is it a failure'...over and over again the answer has been 'yes'.

Has it's society survived , yes it has...society has survived much much worse. But it had to be rebuilt.

Right now? You think its failing on everything?

You don't think people there might be proud of who they are and what they have done on both sides?

FrancieBrady

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Right now? You think its failing on everything?

You don't think people there might be proud of who they are and what they have done on both sides?

The question was not about 'people' it was 'Northern Ireland: a failure 99 years on'

As a state, YES Northern Ireland has spectacularly failed.

RobMc59

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I at no point said you read the Daily Express, I compared your post to the sort of tripe they serve up.

I said, "It's Daily Express levels of idiot spin" followed by
"idiotic Daily Express type soundbites that don't hold up to even the most basic levels of scrutiny....".

It is incredibly facetious to read that and accuse me of calling you a right wing fascist, Rob.

Are you feigning offense to avoid actually replying to the meat of those posts highlighting that you jumped in with a soundbite without actually reading the article?

Why would I feign offence?
The interesting point in the article to me was the fact Ireland stopped an Irish fisherman from landing his catch because he wasn't registered out of the 'correct'port which is extremely petty-why you would hold that up as British intransigence is a mystery.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

Why would I feign offence?
The interesting point in the article to me was the fact Ireland stopped an Irish fisherman from landing his catch because he wasn't registered out of the 'correct'port which is extremely petty-why you would hold that up as British intransigence is a mystery.

.....because the issue was caused by Brexit, an entirely British decision. Why you'd hold it up as an example of the Irish government's negative opinion of NI citizens when it refers to an Irish citizen from Donegal is much more mysterious.

I presume you're withdrawing your feigned offence and acknowledging that at no point did I call you a Right Wing Fascist, or anything that could in any way reasonably be interpreted as such?

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

Yeah it’s how many feel and not 100 miles from my feelings.
The problem is many on here despise ni folk for being proud of our wee country.
I have no issue with republicans aspirations to take us over - it’s a reasonable aspiration. The bit I don’t get is this continual putting ni down and ‘99 years failure’ etc and yet they crave for Having us as part of their country.
Ni has had many difficulties and challenges but we have so much going for us and are continuing to mature and develop.
We )like most countries in the world) have beautiful landscape and scenery, wonderful history and achievements of inventors etc, a unique history re conflict and cultures etc. And we punch above our weight in areas like sport etc.
Most of our people love our wee country, enjoy living in it and want it to remain their home. If that ever changes and the majority ever feel their quality of life and aspirations are better served in a united island, then the mechanisms are there to allow it to happen.
If there is one single thing that blows the title of this thread clean out of the water then it is exactly that. We are nearly unique that there is a mechanism in place to simply cease our wee country to exist and absorb it into its neighbour. It only takes one moment in time where our people need to feel that owc is a failure and we would be better of as part of the ‘success’ next door - and it’s done!
There is you evidence that the people of ni feel owc is more successful than Roi

Probably a good point to close the thread as that is the point disproved

But you talk like NI is sovereign country and that you are Northan Irish. You will be the first to say you are a British citzen and NI is part if the UK. If you can have this NI identity within the UK why cant you have it within a UI?

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

But you talk like NI is sovereign country and that you are Northan Irish. You will be the first to say you are a British citzen and NI is part if the UK. If you can have this NI identity within the UK why cant you have it within a UI?

Because we would not be allowed and if promises were made we certainly could not trust you to uphold them.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Because we would not be allowed and if promises were made we certainly could not trust you to uphold them.

How do you stop somebody having an identity?