Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

But you talk like NI is sovereign country and that you are Northan Irish. You will be the first to say you are a British citzen and NI is part if the UK. If you can have this NI identity within the UK why cant you have it within a UI?

I have said many times on here that I could consider owc within a united ireland (kingdom)if the system was similar to the UK. ie we would have our distinct identity, culture, etc. Now that is a massive compromise I don’t see any republicans on here making

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How do you stop somebody having an identity?

Francie read his question and my reply before you drag it down again into nonsense

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie read his question and my reply before you drag it down again into nonsense

So how would you be 'not allowed' to have an identity in a UI?

downcow

If we were guaranteed what Scotland has in the UK to be replicated in a united island, then there is some chance I could be convinced. But there is so much mistrust it would be a long journey to bring the majority of unionists along

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So how would you be 'not allowed' to have an identity in a UI?

I did not say just identity. My post above may help you grasp what I mean

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

If we were guaranteed what Scotland has in the UK to be replicated in a united island, then there is some chance I could be convinced. But there is so much mistrust it would be a long journey to bring the majority of unionists along

So UINO (Unification in name only) in reality what you want is continued partition in order to feel you own the place. Yeh right!

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I did not say just identity. My post above may help you grasp what I mean

Well yes you did. Here is the question asked;

If you can have this NI identity within the UK why cant you have it within a UI?

and here is your answer:

Because we would not be allowed and if promises were made we certainly could not trust you to uphold them.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well yes you did. Here is the question asked;



and here is your answer:

You are quoting selectively. Here is what he asked
“ But you talk like NI is sovereign country and that you are Northan Irish. You will be the first to say you are a British citzen and NI is part if the UK. If you can have this NI identity within the UK why cant you have it within a UI?”
The key being he was comparing his suggestion with our current situation in UK.
A huge part of my identity is eg wrapped around owc football team - would you allow it to continue. If not then you will be suppressing my identity.

Francie you have the knack (need) to suppress any out of the box thinking on here

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You are quoting selectively. Here is what he asked
“ But you talk like NI is sovereign country and that you are Northan Irish. You will be the first to say you are a British citzen and NI is part if the UK. If you can have this NI identity within the UK why cant you have it within a UI?”
The key being he was comparing his suggestion with our current situation in UK.
A huge part of my identity is eg wrapped around owc football team - would you allow it to continue. If not then you will be suppressing my identity.

Francie you have the knack (need) to suppress any out of the box thinking on here

Your team would be the team of the country you belong to. With people from your community and mine eligible to play for it. Therefore your 'identity' is intact.

RobMc59

Fionn1952 wrote: »

.....because the issue was caused by Brexit, an entirely British decision. Why you'd hold it up as an example of the Irish government's negative opinion of NI citizens when it refers to an Irish citizen from Donegal is much more mysterious.

I presume you're withdrawing your feigned offence and acknowledging that at no point did I call you a Right Wing Fascist, or anything that could in any way reasonably be interpreted as such?

If you feel it's justified to penalise your own citizens because they didn't register in an 'approved'port or hold it up as British intransigence then there's no hope for you Fionn.
Judging by the bickering amongst yourselves last night I think some of you disgruntled republicans could start an argument in a phone box!

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

If you feel it's justified to penalise your own citizens because they didn't register in an 'approved'port or hold it up as British intransigence then there's no hope for you Fionn.
Judging by the bickering amongst yourselves last night I think some of you disgruntled republicans could start an argument in a phone box!

We aren't hive mind, Rob. I disagree with Francie on many things. Big dose of pot calling the kettle black with your argument in a phone box comments; I've been banned or warned on a grand total of zero threads in my time posting on here. How many times have you been given warnings on the Brexit thread for your rantings?

It is literally an issue caused by British intransigence, Rob. Did the Irish government remove NI from the EU against its will? The Irish government can't just ignore laws that are now in place due to the British government's decision to remove itself from the EU.

They perhaps could've been better prepared and had solutions in place for issues like this, but the brinkmanship engaged in by the UK meant the details weren't known until the last minute, and the relevant Irish minister has stated they're looking for a solution.

Would you prefer the Irish government started making decisions about the sovereign waters of the UK? I'm guessing you wouldn't respond too positively to that. The fact of the matter is that decisions about the treatment of a business which operates in NI requires the agreement of the UK; you know the control your fellow citizens and your government fought so hard to take back.

I'll take it as a yes on your withdrawal of the accusations that I called you a Right Wing Fascist, since you've opted to skip over that in your subsequent replies since the ridiculousness of it was pointed out to you?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

If we were guaranteed what Scotland has in the UK to be replicated in a united island, then there is some chance I could be convinced. But there is so much mistrust it would be a long journey to bring the majority of unionists along

Who's the 'we' in that sentence?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your team would be the team of the country you belong to. With people from your community and mine eligible to play for it. Therefore your 'identity' is intact.

Well there you go posters. This is why unionists, and indeed many moderate nationalists who buy into ni, will never accept a United ireland.
Francie type are simply saying, knuckle down, accept the old wafer on the tongue and become one of us.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well there you go posters. This is why unionists, and indeed many moderate nationalists who buy into ni, will never accept a United ireland.
Francie type are simply saying, knuckle down, accept the old wafer on the tongue and become one of us.

No, downcow. What francie is asking you, is, why would you not support the national team of your country...we won't get into why you think 'your' communities identity owns the NI team. I am sure it wouldn't be hard to find you waxing lyrical about it being a team for all.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, downcow. What francie is asking you, is, why would you not support the national team of your country...we won't get into why you think 'your' communities identity owns the NI team. I am sure it wouldn't be hard to find you waxing lyrical about it being a team for all.

I was responding to the question I was asked that if I had the “Northern Ireland” the same with a united island as we do currently in UK. Well obviously that currently includes each major region of UK having their own football team. Try to keep up.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I was responding to the question I was asked that if I had the “Northern Ireland” the same with a united island as we do currently in UK. Well obviously that currently includes each major region of UK having their own football team. Try to keep up.

But if a UI is chosen in a poll, the majority will be saying they no longer want a 'Northern Ireland'.

Do you understand what the point of a border poll will be?

Capt'n Midnight

David Blunkett former UK Home Secretary can't see NI staying in the UK

Lord Blunkett, speaking during a House of Lords debate on the future arrangement between the UK and EU, said: “It proposes a very different picture for the future which will be exploited by those in the Scottish National Party, who seek to use every opportunity to reopen and re-engage with the destruction of the United Kingdom.

“I believe that this deal actually accelerates the possibility within the next 25 years of a united island of Ireland.

BonnieSituation

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

David Blunkett former UK Home Secretary can't see NI staying in the UK

But as the UK has no selfish or strategic interest in NI then surely he shouldn't give a shít.

afro man

ELM327 wrote: »

Ulster fry is not found elsewhere outside of ulster. Take your thatcherite breakfast comparisons elsewhere :D


(ps I was aware of the difference between farls and soda bread, it was a joke apparently only in our extended family. I assumed it was a similar thing to the old toaster in the press/on display concept)

Excuse me i have an ulster fry most weekend & i live outside ulster.

FrancieBrady

Maybe the Scottish gunboats could fire the langoustines and scallops over to France RobMc59?

What an omnishambles for ordinary decent hard working people...a disgrace that this was allowed happen.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-scotland-fishing-exclusive/exclusive-its-a-catastrophe-scottish-fishermen-halt-exports-due-to-brexit-red-tape-idUKKBN29D0UB?edition-redirect=uk

Wesekn.

Supporting brexit seems to have been a major own goal for the DUP now the trade barriers are up

RandomViewer

BonnieSituation wrote: »

But as the UK has no selfish or strategic interest in NI then surely he shouldn't give a shít.

Blunkett was blind from memory, hes pulling your chain

BonnieSituation

RandomViewer wrote: »

Blunkett was blind from memory, hes pulling your chain

No, no, he still IS blind.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe the Scottish gunboats could fire the langoustines and scallops over to France RobMc59?

What an omnishambles for ordinary decent hard working people...a disgrace that this was allowed happen.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-scotland-fishing-exclusive/exclusive-its-a-catastrophe-scottish-fishermen-halt-exports-due-to-brexit-red-tape-idUKKBN29D0UB?edition-redirect=uk

I'm not happy about any of it Francie,from the situation you've pointed out to what's going on around Rockall.

trixi001

Wesekn. wrote: »

Supporting brexit seems to have been a major own goal for the DUP now the trade barriers are up

In a way yes, but it has also unfortunately, secured the Norths status for the foreseeable future.

The North has a unique position with Europe - unfettered access to both British and EU markets (Current issues are around access from Britain to NI, and not vice versa) - this should mean it could attract lots of businesses and grow the economy - except stormont are probably too inept to capitalise on this.

A good NI economy is not good for nationalism. There is probably 30% of people who would always vote against a UI, and 30% of people who would always vote for a UI, regardless of the ecomony. These people don't matter, it is the remainder who decide if a UI happens or not, and giving up the unique position NI finds itself in is not likely to appeal to these people.

People in the North, can have an Irish passport, an EHIC card, use the Erasmus scheme etc, and essentially get the good parts of the EU without the all bad..eg: The covid vaccine, NI got it sooner than the EU, as it comes under UK licensing, and without the red tape of the EU, the UK was able to do this a lot quicker. Although the red tape on small businesses could be disastrous.

Is the North a failure - yes, of course it is, it was always destined to be.

However parts of the South are also a failure due to partition, especially Donegal, due to the fact it is essentially cut of the rest of it! It gets ignored by Dublin, whereas if the whole Northern region was together, this would not be possible to the same extent.

Despite the obvious failures of the North, there are definitely some positives to life here
Its affordable - wages might be lower than RoI/GB, but so are house prices.
NHS/Teachers wages are higher than they realistically should be as they are on a par with GB, this means these essential staff can afford houses, can afford houses and a decent standard of living.
All political parties here have a vaguely socialist outlook.
Due to troubles and pariamilitary groups, less gangs and drug wars etc about here (Although sadly this is on the increase)

I love living in the North, love having the NHS, bought my myself a house on a single average income, normally no financial worries (covid has unfortunately changed this, but we will bounce back), no extortionate road tax, insurance etc, not the same levels of homelessness as seen in other areas.
I have always wanted a united and free Ireland and if i get the chance will always vote for it regardless of the economic consequences, but i would like to see reunification be used not to submerge NI into a UI Ireland, but to create a New Ireland, that puts the need of the people of the whole country as its top priority, not just the lucky few (eg: Wealthy, Foreign investment etc)

downcow

trixi001 wrote: »

In a way yes, but it has also unfortunately, secured the Norths status for the foreseeable future.

The North has a unique position with Europe - unfettered access to both British and EU markets (Current issues are around access from Britain to NI, and not vice versa) - this should mean it could attract lots of businesses and grow the economy - except stormont are probably too inept to capitalise on this.

A good NI economy is not good for nationalism. There is probably 30% of people who would always vote against a UI, and 30% of people who would always vote for a UI, regardless of the ecomony. These people don't matter, it is the remainder who decide if a UI happens or not, and giving up the unique position NI finds itself in is not likely to appeal to these people.

People in the North, can have an Irish passport, an EHIC card, use the Erasmus scheme etc, and essentially get the good parts of the EU without the all bad..eg: The covid vaccine, NI got it sooner than the EU, as it comes under UK licensing, and without the red tape of the EU, the UK was able to do this a lot quicker. Although the red tape on small businesses could be disastrous.

Is the North a failure - yes, of course it is, it was always destined to be.

However parts of the South are also a failure due to partition, especially Donegal, due to the fact it is essentially cut of the rest of it! It gets ignored by Dublin, whereas if the whole Northern region was together, this would not be possible to the same extent.

Despite the obvious failures of the North, there are definitely some positives to life here
Its affordable - wages might be lower than RoI/GB, but so are house prices.
NHS/Teachers wages are higher than they realistically should be as they are on a par with GB, this means these essential staff can afford houses, can afford houses and a decent standard of living.
All political parties here have a vaguely socialist outlook.
Due to troubles and pariamilitary groups, less gangs and drug wars etc about here (Although sadly this is on the increase)

I love living in the North, love having the NHS, bought my myself a house on a single average income, normally no financial worries (covid has unfortunately changed this, but we will bounce back), no extortionate road tax, insurance etc, not the same levels of homelessness as seen in other areas.
I have always wanted a united and free Ireland and if i get the chance will always vote for it regardless of the economic consequences, but i would like to see reunification be used not to submerge NI into a UI Ireland, but to create a New Ireland, that puts the need of the people of the whole country as its top priority, not just the lucky few (eg: Wealthy, Foreign investment etc)

A very honest measured post. The good and the bad. Obviously I do not agree with your assertion that Northern Ireland is a failure, but I can concur with your points on quality of life and affordability of living in Northern Ireland, and the best of both worlds

saabsaab

'reunification be used not to submerge NI into a UI Ireland, but to create a New Ireland'


Totally agree. Not a Dublin dominated state as we have here now.

FrancieBrady

saabsaab wrote: »

'reunification be used not to submerge NI into a UI Ireland, but to create a New Ireland'


Totally agree. Not a Dublin dominated state as we have here now.

Partitionists here and elsewhere think and talk about a UI in 'acquisition' terms, but I don't think it can work like that. A new one country sovereign island gives the best chance of success IMO.

Natterjack from Kerry

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Partitionists here and elsewhere think and talk about a UI in 'acquisition' terms, but I don't think it can work like that. A new one country sovereign island gives the best chance of success IMO.

While it is entirely from the random fall of the chips and not of NI's making, it nevertheless now finds itself in a position that simply cannot be bettered. It is great news for all in Northern Ireland. And those in the south who wish it well. Any structure involving joining the south and distancing itself from GB has downsides that will never make such a move worthwhile. While NI was very much a sideshow - and one that highlited an embarrassing selfishness from many in England - a byproduct of Brexit is nevertheless an effective end to the modern history of Northern Ireland as being defined by the question of it remaining in the UK or joining the republic. Brexit has given it such a good position that the issue is now settled.

RobMc59

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

While it is entirely from the random fall of the chips and not of NI's making, it nevertheless now finds itself in a position that simply cannot be bettered. It is great news for all in Northern Ireland. And those in the south who wish it well. Any structure involving joining the south and distancing itself from GB has downsides that will never make such a move worthwhile. While NI was very much a sideshow - and one that highlited an embarrassing selfishness from many in England - a byproduct of Brexit is nevertheless an effective end to the modern history of Northern Ireland as being defined by the question of it remaining in the UK or joining the republic. Brexit has given it such a good position that the issue is now settled.

If johnson was`nt such a buffoon I`d swear that brussels and the UK government colluded over this.
Agree to a border in the Irish sea and the EU will make it virtually impossible for a UI as NI has such favourable conditions it would be madness to want to leave the Union.