Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

You can not deny that you are stating that your experience (where you were offended by fat people and union flags) is the norm and that it is minority that attend parades in rural towns. This is factually incorrect. Or maybe you can supply the data that leads you to this conclusion?

My post was descriptive, Downcow. Nothing to do with being offended. The vast majority of the time I lived in the North, I did what an awful lot from my community do during the twelfth, and went elsewhere to leave you lot to it. There were some years were this wasn't possible due to other responsibilities, and a few years where either my curiosity got the better of me and I popped out for a nosey, or friends of mine from a Unionist background were attending and asked me to drop along with them for a few beers. I gave this description as a counterpoint to another poster's idyllic description of the twelfth as a super family friendly day out, while describing St Patrick's Day like a warzone.

I do note that you haven't actually argued with the veracity of my description, but rather tried to deflect over to how describing it somehow means I'm offended by it.

My data is purely demographics. I don't believe that a small village like Pomeroy (from a list of 2019 parades) has tens of thousands more people than Belfast or Coleraine watching the parade on the streets of the village. Perhaps we're at a crossed wire on what we would both consider urban versus rural.

Obviously we can both agree that somewhere like Belfast is urban, and we would probably both consider say Pomeroy to be rural.

Taking the 2019 list of 12th July parades from the BBC, I'll highlight what I consider rural, this might give you some insight into where we are disagreeing.

Ahoghill
Augher - rural
Ballymena
Ballymoney
Ballyronan - rural
Belfast
Carnlough
Coleraine
Crossgar
Donemana - rural
Glenavy
Holywood
Kilkeel
Larne
Lisnaskea
Tandragee
Pomeroy - rural
Rathfriland

So by my reckoning, your statement that over 90% of 12th parades are small rural affairs is demonstrably false. No matter how restrictive you are on what you consider urban, there is no way you could consider 90% of the above rural.

My statement that the majority of attendees at the 12th will experience a more urban affair should be self evident from the above list. The towns and villages with a population of 1-2000 could be argued as borderline for rural/urban, but even with relaxing to include those as rural, I can't see how the numbers add up to more people attending the rural parades. Note I am talking about spectators rather than the size of the parade itself, which is another place we could be getting our wires crossed. I'm fully aware the actual parades can be just as large in some of the rural parades. I believe for 2019, the Tandragee parade was the biggest, and Belfast was the longest parade at 6 miles.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

My post was descriptive, Downcow. Nothing to do with being offended. The vast majority of the time I lived in the North, I did what an awful lot from my community do during the twelfth, and went elsewhere to leave you lot to it. There were some years were this wasn't possible due to other responsibilities, and a few years where either my curiosity got the better of me and I popped out for a nosey, or friends of mine from a Unionist background were attending and asked me to drop along with them for a few beers. I gave this description as a counterpoint to another poster's idyllic description of the twelfth as a super family friendly day out, while describing St Patrick's Day like a warzone.

I do note that you haven't actually argued with the veracity of my description, but rather tried to deflect over to how describing it somehow means I'm offended by it.

My data is purely demographics. I don't believe that a small village like Pomeroy (from a list of 2019 parades) has tens of thousands more people than Belfast or Coleraine watching the parade on the streets of the village. Perhaps we're at a crossed wire on what we would both consider urban versus rural.

Obviously we can both agree that somewhere like Belfast is urban, and we would probably both consider say Pomeroy to be rural.

Taking the 2019 list of 12th July parades from the BBC, I'll highlight what I consider rural, this might give you some insight into where we are disagreeing.

Ahoghill
Augher - rural
Ballymena
Ballymoney
Ballyronan - rural
Belfast
Carnlough
Coleraine
Crossgar
Donemana - rural
Glenavy
Holywood
Kilkeel
Larne
Lisnaskea
Tandragee
Pomeroy - rural
Rathfriland

So by my reckoning, your statement that over 90% of 12th parades are small rural affairs is demonstrably false. No matter how restrictive you are on what you consider urban, there is no way you could consider 90% of the above rural.

My statement that the majority of attendees at the 12th will experience a more urban affair should be self evident from the above list. The towns and villages with a population of 1-2000 could be argued as borderline for rural/urban, but even with relaxing to include those as rural, I can't see how the numbers add up to more people attending the rural parades. Note I am talking about spectators rather than the size of the parade itself, which is another place we could be getting our wires crossed. I'm fully aware the actual parades can be just as large in some of the rural parades. I believe for 2019, the Tandragee parade was the biggest, and Belfast was the longest parade at 6 miles.

Talk about blowing your own argument out of the water lol
Let’s take what you yourself accept was the biggest parade in 2019 Tandragee.
Population 3846 and described as a village lol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandragee
Now is there any poster on here would refer to tandragee as urban - I actually cannot believe you are saying this to try and uphold your argument.
Given the nonsense you and jm08 have in the last few post about offending people- it would be worth having a wee look at the stats for the village you say hosted the largest 12th.
78% British
28% Norther Irish
6% Irish

12% r catholic (interesting only half of the Catholics regard themselves as Irish - note to those on here telling us we are all Irish lol)
81% Protestant

And 3 times as many had a knowledge of Ulster-Scots as had a knowledge of Irish. TBF very few had an interest in either

I would encourage southern readers to just take a look at this example Fionn has given and ask is he being honest and open or prejudiced and bigoted

Here are the stats for the (urban lol) village http://www.ninis2.nisra.gov.uk/public/AreaProfileReportViewer.aspx?FromAPAddressMulipleRecords=Tandragee@Exact%20match%20of%20location%20name:%20@Exact%20Match%20Of%20Location%20Name:%20Tandragee@23?

..and since fionn also claims the bbc hide the bad stuff, here is the entire unedited parade fionn is referring to. I don’t need to watch it as I would be astounded if there is even the slightest hint of bad behaviour or ill discipline. https://youtu.be/aMbP8FVs3U4

And of course contrary to fionn’s new goalposts moving claim that most of the ‘spectators’ are at urban events. The biggest spectator attendance at an annual parade (60,000 to 100,000 depending on weather) is in Scarva - that other well known urban conurbation with a population of 320 people lol.
Mind you that is massive compared to the smaller urban conurbation that hosts the annual orange parade in ROI lol. Wise up Fionn!

Fionn you are full of it and I hope souther readers do a little research before taking stuff from you and your republican mates on here at face value

There’s a bonus for whoever spots the most ‘fat blokes’ as they are particularly offensive to fionn.

Five Eighth

Northern Ireland - a failure 99 years on?
If I could again make what I believe is the most salient point – Northern Ireland is a social, economic and political failure. As I have already noted on a previous post, Northern Ireland was created by an artificially contrived majority – a state built on quicksand. The dye was cast early in its exitance.
Social
Seamus Mallon entered politics in 1963 when a local family was turned down for public housing with a unionist councillor saying:
“No Catholic pig or his litter will ever get a house in Markethill while I am here’”
Is this what David Trimble meant when he said “Northern Ireland was a cold place for Catholics?”
Economic
The British exchequer transfers approximately €12b to Northern Ireland every year to keep it afloat.
Political
Diarmuid Ferriter yesterday (21/08/20) wrote in the Irish Times:
Fifty years ago this summer, the British home secretary Reginald Maulding was on a flight back to London after his first visit to Northern Ireland for which he had responsibility as a member of the New Conservative government. “For God’s sake”, he demanded, “bring me a large Scotch. What a bloody awful country!”.
Even when the Tories had assented to the creation of the New Northern Ireland in 1920, they had few positive things to say about the place. Former prime minister Arthur Balfour accepted the case for Unionists controlling their destiny “in spite of their bigotry”.
Joe Devlin decried the desperate plight of the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland, “kept as on third of the population as if they were pariahs”.
The above piece is extracted from ‘Marking Centenary of a ‘bloody awful country’ a tall order’.
The big question is ‘Where do we do from here?’

downcow

Five Eighth wrote: »

Northern Ireland - a failure 99 years on?
If I could again make what I believe is the most salient point – Northern Ireland is a social, economic and political failure. As I have already noted on a previous post, Northern Ireland was created by an artificially contrived majority – a state built on quicksand. The dye was cast early in its exitance.
Social
Seamus Mallon entered politics in 1963 when a local family was turned down for public housing with a unionist councillor saying:
“No Catholic pig or his litter will ever get a house in Markethill while I am here’”
Is this what David Trimble meant when he said “Northern Ireland was a cold place for Catholics?”
Economic
The British exchequer transfers approximately €12b to Northern Ireland every year to keep it afloat.
Political
Diarmuid Ferriter yesterday (21/08/20) wrote in the Irish Times:
Fifty years ago this summer, the British home secretary Reginald Maulding was on a flight back to London after his first visit to Northern Ireland for which he had responsibility as a member of the New Conservative government. “For God’s sake”, he demanded, “bring me a large Scotch. What a bloody awful country!”.
Even when the Tories had assented to the creation of the New Northern Ireland in 1920, they had few positive things to say about the place. Former prime minister Arthur Balfour accepted the case for Unionists controlling their destiny “in spite of their bigotry”.
Joe Devlin decried the desperate plight of the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland, “kept as on third of the population as if they were pariahs”.
The above piece is extracted from ‘Marking Centenary of a ‘bloody awful country’ a tall order’.
The big question is ‘Where do we do from here?’

I think you concluding question is a fair one. But everything else in your post is just examples of bigotry and prejudice and both communities can match you or anyone else one for one. Both communities unfortunately can list endless barbaric sectarian acts against them. And yes we can argue whether the minority in 26 counties or in 6 counties were abandoned
It all brings us back to your last question.

Five Eighth

downcow wrote: »

I think you concluding question is a fair one. But everything else in your post is just examples of bigotry and prejudice and both communities can match you or anyone else one for one. Both communities unfortunately can list endless barbaric sectarian acts against them. And yes we can argue whether the minority in 26 counties or in 6 counties were abandoned
It all brings us back to your last question.

I quoted Seamus Mallon, the British exchequer and the respected historian Diarmuid Ferriter.

Could you please specify what is 'bigoted' or 'prejudicial' about anything in the post?

Shefwedfan

Fionn1952 wrote: »

My post was descriptive, Downcow. Nothing to do with being offended. The vast majority of the time I lived in the North, I did what an awful lot from my community do during the twelfth, and went elsewhere to leave you lot to it. There were some years were this wasn't possible due to other responsibilities, and a few years where either my curiosity got the better of me and I popped out for a nosey, or friends of mine from a Unionist background were attending and asked me to drop along with them for a few beers. I gave this description as a counterpoint to another poster's idyllic description of the twelfth as a super family friendly day out, while describing St Patrick's Day like a warzone.

I do note that you haven't actually argued with the veracity of my description, but rather tried to deflect over to how describing it somehow means I'm offended by it.

My data is purely demographics. I don't believe that a small village like Pomeroy (from a list of 2019 parades) has tens of thousands more people than Belfast or Coleraine watching the parade on the streets of the village. Perhaps we're at a crossed wire on what we would both consider urban versus rural.

Obviously we can both agree that somewhere like Belfast is urban, and we would probably both consider say Pomeroy to be rural.

Taking the 2019 list of 12th July parades from the BBC, I'll highlight what I consider rural, this might give you some insight into where we are disagreeing.

Ahoghill
Augher - rural
Ballymena
Ballymoney
Ballyronan - rural
Belfast
Carnlough
Coleraine
Crossgar
Donemana - rural
Glenavy
Holywood
Kilkeel
Larne
Lisnaskea
Tandragee
Pomeroy - rural
Rathfriland

So by my reckoning, your statement that over 90% of 12th parades are small rural affairs is demonstrably false. No matter how restrictive you are on what you consider urban, there is no way you could consider 90% of the above rural.

My statement that the majority of attendees at the 12th will experience a more urban affair should be self evident from the above list. The towns and villages with a population of 1-2000 could be argued as borderline for rural/urban, but even with relaxing to include those as rural, I can't see how the numbers add up to more people attending the rural parades. Note I am talking about spectators rather than the size of the parade itself, which is another place we could be getting our wires crossed. I'm fully aware the actual parades can be just as large in some of the rural parades. I believe for 2019, the Tandragee parade was the biggest, and Belfast was the longest parade at 6 miles.

I was in Tandragee yesterday, it’s a village at best, so I think your story is falling apart

In regards toast Patrick day, it’s a pi** up at best. Everyone drink, getting sick and fighting. Look what happened when they tried to recreate with St James Day and has to ban it because of the mess it was.....

cameramonkey

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I was in Tandragee yesterday, it’s a village at best, so I think your story is falling apart

In regards toast Patrick day, it’s a pi** up at best. Everyone drink, getting sick and fighting. Look what happened when they tried to recreate with St James Day and has to ban it because of the mess it was.....

Arse to the wind.

jm08

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I was in Tandragee yesterday, it’s a village at best, so I think your story is falling apart

In regards toast Patrick day, it’s a pi** up at best. Everyone drink, getting sick and fighting. Look what happened when they tried to recreate with St James Day and has to ban it because of the mess it was.....

At least its an inclusive pissup.


That little ''piss up'' gets Ireland's leaders an invite to the White House every year, lunch on Capital Hill (that even Trump didn't refuse to go to when Pelosi had walked out of a meeting with him). It gets Ireland name flashed all over the world, and most people have positive things to say about it which is good if you are a small exporting country like Ireland.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I think you concluding question is a fair one. But everything else in your post is just examples of bigotry and prejudice and both communities can match you or anyone else one for one. Both communities unfortunately can list endless barbaric sectarian acts against them. And yes we can argue whether the minority in 26 counties or in 6 counties were abandoned
It all brings us back to your last question.

Your community had three chances to avoid all this bigotry and prejudice with

a) Sunningdale Agreement in 1970s (before all this stuff really kicked off)
b) Anglo Irish Agreement in 1980s
c) GFA in 1990s.


If you want to point the finger at anyone, I think it should be yourselves that you are now in this predicament.

Shefwedfan

jm08 wrote: »

At least its an inclusive pissup.


That little ''piss up'' gets Ireland's leaders an invite to the White House every year, lunch on Capital Hill (that even Trump didn't refuse to go to when Pelosi had walked out of a meeting with him). It gets Ireland name flashed all over the world, and most people have positive things to say about it which is good if you are a small exporting country like Ireland.

We are talking about Northern Ireland. Have you gone to St Patricks Day in Northern Ireland?

jm08

Shefwedfan wrote: »

We are talking about Northern Ireland. Have you gone to St Patricks Day in Northern Ireland?

No. A good bit of boozing happens around St. Patrick's Day around Dublin (and elsewhere!).

Shefwedfan

jm08 wrote: »

No. A good bit of boozing happens around St. Patrick's Day around Dublin (and elsewhere!).

So? This is a thread about Northern Ireland

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

We are talking about Northern Ireland. Have you gone to St Patricks Day in Northern Ireland?

I have, loads of them...have even driven floats in northern parades....no different to what happens at St Patrick's Day all around the country and the world. People have a good time...some indulge a bit too much and it gets messy.

downcow

Five Eighth wrote: »

I quoted Seamus Mallon, the British exchequer and the respected historian Diarmuid Ferriter.

Could you please specify what is 'bigoted' or 'prejudicial' about anything in the post?

Settle. I was simple saying that the two communities are excellent at quoting how each has been hard done by, how each has been abused by the other etc etc.
Your post was doing that. It was implying the big bad brits and the prods have been terrible to us little angels. I know unionists who do exactly the same. That’s going nowhere. Unionists believe they are the victims of nationalist violence and vice versa.
You last question is the key question. Where to we go from here?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Your community had three chances to avoid all this bigotry and prejudice with

a) Sunningdale Agreement in 1970s (before all this stuff really kicked off)
b) Anglo Irish Agreement in 1980s
c) GFA in 1990s.


If you want to point the finger at anyone, I think it should be yourselves that you are now in this predicament.

We are not in any predicament.
Your the one with the predicament
100 years of promises that a united island was just around the corner and there are less people in ni classifying themselves as Irish today than there ever was.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Where to we go from here?

As the GFA said...where ever the majority decide we go.

That's the only game in town.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

We are not in any predicament.
Your the one with the predicament
100 years of promises that a united island was just around the corner and there are less people in ni classifying themselves as Irish today than there ever was.

Shefwedfan

downcow wrote: »

We are not in any predicament.
Your the one with the predicament
100 years of promises that a united island was just around the corner and there are less people in ni classifying themselves as Irish today than there ever was.

Funny how this thread is full of a loads of guys who seems to have zero knowledge of the North, but are telling everyone the North needs to join the Republic :P:P

Five Eighth

downcow wrote: »

Settle. I was simple saying that the two communities are excellent at quoting how each has been hard done by, how each has been abused by the other etc etc.
Your post was doing that. It was implying the big bad brits and the prods have been terrible to us little angels. I know unionists who do exactly the same. That’s going nowhere. Unionists believe they are the victims of nationalist violence and vice versa.
You last question is the key question. Where to we go from here?

I was using quotes from reputable sources to support my contention that Northern Ireland is a failed state. You may, of course, if you believe otherwise, use examples of how Northern Ireland is, in your opinion, a success 99 years on.

I have noticed that not one of the contributions from what might be considered the 'Unionist tradition' has argued that Northern Ireland, is in fact, a successful state 99 years on. Isn't the main point of this thread to debate this very proposition?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

We are not in any predicament.
Your the one with the predicament
100 years of promises that a united island was just around the corner and there are less people in ni classifying themselves as Irish today than there ever was.

Still doesn't change that unionists might have avoided an awful lot of grief (and there would be less blood on their hands) if they had accepted Sunningdale at the very beginning.


PS - I was quite happy with the solution to Northern Ireland that the GFA offered. But yet again, unionists had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it and have done their best to rip it apart. I have little to no sympathy for loyalists now.


And for the record, I don't care what people classify themselves as, though I note that you are using statistics from 2011 and there is a new census due next year. I think you might be disappointed if you think that anyone referring to themselves as Northern Ireland has some political meaning (such as wanting an independent Northern Ireland).

FrancieBrady

Five Eighth wrote: »

I was using quotes from reputable sources to support my contention that Northern Ireland is a failed state. You may, of course, if you believe otherwise, use examples of how Northern Ireland is, in your opinion, a success 99 years on.

I have noticed that not one of the contributions from what might be considered the 'Unionist tradition' has argued that Northern Ireland, is in fact, a successful state 99 years on. Isn't the main point of this thread to debate this very proposition?

Neither downcow nor shef or anyone else has laid out what they think is worthy of celebration or is a success. No shortage of takers to lay out what has failed though

downcow

Five Eighth wrote: »

I was using quotes from reputable sources to support my contention that Northern Ireland is a failed state. You may, of course, if you believe otherwise, use examples of how Northern Ireland is, in your opinion, a success 99 years on.

I have noticed that not one of the contributions from what might be considered the 'Unionist tradition' has argued that Northern Ireland, is in fact, a successful state 99 years on. Isn't the main point of this thread to debate this very proposition?

Take a look again at your examples and then ask yourself “am I prejudiced and bigoted?”

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Neither downcow nor shef or anyone else has laid out what they think is worthy of celebration or is a success. No shortage of takers to lay out what has failed though

I could list endless stuff that’s good about ni and lots of stuff that’s bad. What’s the point?
I’m sure you could do the same about ROI?

I am interested could you list me stuff that’s bad about ROI which night suggest it has failed

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Neither downcow nor shef or anyone else has laid out what they think is worthy of celebration or is a success. No shortage of takers to lay out what has failed though

I don't live in the North anymore so its none of my business

None of your either, your living the wrong side of border as well.



So waffling on all you want, look at your little racist comments on here shows the people of the North what a shower of backward people we have in the South. They would be better off sticking with what they have......

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I could list endless stuff that’s good about ni and lots of stuff that’s bad. What’s the point?
I’m sure you could do the same about ROI?

What is worthy of celebration about the founding of NI downcow.

P.S. The view, weather, the people etc don't count they were all there before partition.

Tell us what you think is worthy of celebration. Genuine question

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is worthy of celebration about the founding of NI downcow.

P.S. The view, weather, the people etc don't count they were all there before partition.

Tell us what you think is worthy of celebration. Genuine question

Nothing Genuine about you Francie


Your on the other thread defending the PIRA killing people and down playing it. Join that with your constant racist comments.....Genuine is the last thing you can say

cameramonkey

Five Eighth wrote: »

I was using quotes from reputable sources to support my contention that Northern Ireland is a failed state. You may, of course, if you believe otherwise, use examples of how Northern Ireland is, in your opinion, a success 99 years on.

I have noticed that not one of the contributions from what might be considered the 'Unionist tradition' has argued that Northern Ireland, is in fact, a successful state 99 years on. Isn't the main point of this thread to debate this very proposition?

Their main point seems to be that they are so unproductive and lacking in entrepreneurial drive and a complete economic basket case that they would be too expensive for a united Ireland.
Imagine having that as a calling card, it is admitting to be a failed political and economic entity.

neutral guy

As far I see there is plenty guys from North prefer work on South because there is better money.The motorway is full of North reg on morning .
The most common business on South is buy cheap on North and sell on South.The many busineses will die when North will be Ireland.
The many families from South survive because buying cheaper food on North when sterling rate is right.
There is plenty for and plenty against.

Five Eighth

downcow wrote: »

Take a look again at your examples and then ask yourself “am I prejudiced and bigoted?”

Your comments are not supporting why you believe Northern Ireland is a successful social, economic and political entity. You need to address whether or not Northern Ireland is economically viable, socially cohesive and politically stable. Just providing bland statements does not support your position on this matter.

downcow

Five Eighth wrote: »

Your comments are not supporting why you believe Northern Ireland is a successful social, economic and political entity. You need to address whether or not Northern Ireland is economically viable, socially cohesive and politically stable. Just providing bland statements does not support your position on this matter.

The whole premise of the question is wrong. You are forgetting I live in the uk. I happen to live in the bit that is called Northern Ireland.
Your question seems to be asking is a region of the uk viable. That is completely missing how the UK works.
You may work like that in Roi and ponder over whether Mayo is viable but no the way I think in uk.
I believe my country (UK) is fairly solid on your three points - not perfect - but certainly my choice ahead of joining a nation of just 10 million people