Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

FrancieBrady

ittakestwo wrote: »

No. I am aware everyone in NI could have got Irish citizenship prior to the GFA. But the Irish government can not decide in the morning to stop this gift of citizenship to people born in NI without breaking the terms of the GFA

??? The GFA will be kaput come a UI...which is why it doesn't make any provision for a UI.

ittakestwo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

??? The GFA will be kaput come a UI...which is why it doesn't make any provision for a UI.

You might want to delete this post

BonnieSituation

ittakestwo wrote: »

No. I am aware everyone in NI could have got Irish citizenship prior to the GFA. But the Irish government can not decide in the morning to stop this gift of citizenship to people born in NI without breaking the terms of the GFA

Can you clarify the part in bold please?

Fionn1952

ittakestwo wrote: »

You might want to delete this post

.....it is a factual statement. The GFA is entirely based around definitions of Northern Ireland and it's people. In the event of a United Ireland, Northern Ireland no longer exists and the GFA will be subsumed by whatever agreement the British and Irish governments come to regarding the transfer of NI from part of the UK to part of Ireland.

ittakestwo

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Can you clarify the part in bold please?

I must have copied this extract from the GFA about ten times over the last two days. But here it is again.

"Recognise the birthright of all people of Northan Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British or both as they may do choose and accordingly confirm their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both governments and would not be affected by any future changes to the status of Northan Ireland"

FrancieBrady

ittakestwo wrote: »

You might want to delete this post

Why? The GFA will be irrelevant in large measure after a UI.

There will be a new treaty between Ireland and the UK to supercede it. We will enact and Act as will the UK.

BonnieSituation

ittakestwo wrote: »

I must have copied this extract from the GFA about ten times over the last two days. But here it is again.

"Recognise the birthright of all people of Northan Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British or both as they may do choose and accordingly confirm their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both governments and would not be affected by any future changes to the status of Northan Ireland"

You'd think you'd have corrected that spelling of 'northern' at this point...

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Anyway, I asked for clarification of what YOU wrote above.

Can you break it down for me. No need to refer to anything else. Just clearly and unambiguously explain what you mean and are getting at.

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This is what you wrote:

ittakestwo wrote:

But the Irish government can not decide in the morning to stop this gift of citizenship to people born in NI without breaking the terms of the GFA

Just break that down for me.

You refer to a "gift of citizenship" here. Citizenship of 'WHERE' exactly?

Fionn1952

ittakestwo wrote: »

I must have copied this extract from the GFA about ten times over the last two days. But here it is again.

"Recognise the birthright of all people of Northan Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British or both as they may do choose and accordingly confirm their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both governments and would not be affected by any future changes to the status of Northan Ireland"

With a literal sigh out loud, how does the GFA define the people of NORTHERN Ireland? I'll give you a clue, it doesn't apply in the event of unification....

ittakestwo

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You'd think you'd have corrected that spelling of 'northern' at this point...

---

Anyway, I asked for clarification of what YOU wrote above.

Can you break it down for me. No need to refer to anything else. Just clearly and unambiguously explain what you mean and are getting at.

---

This is what you wrote:



Just break that down for me.

You refer to a "gift of citizenship" here. Citizenship of 'WHERE' exactly?

The Irish government has to give Irish citizenship to everyone born in NI. If they refused to give Irish citizenship to people born in NI they would be breaking the GFA

BonnieSituation

ittakestwo wrote: »

The Irish government has to give Irish citizenship to everyone born in NI. If they refused to give Irish citizenship to people born in NI they would be breaking the GFA

Right. Finally, we get to the nub.

Now please read this carefully.

The right to Irish citizenship will remain unchanged in the event of a UI as the people born in the former territory of NI will obviously be now born in the new UI State.

Do you understand? The rights to citizenship will follow from that. As it stands those born in NI (subject to the 2006 Act) already have this right. There will be no change WHATSOEVER to the right to citizenship in the event of UI.

If there were we would be creating a whole cohort of STATELESS people.

I fail to see how you thought that the State would cease to grant citizenship to its citizens after a UI comes into being.

My brain is actually itchy here wondering how you could possibly have come to this conclusion.

ittakestwo

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I fail to see how you thought that the State would cease to grant citizenship to its citizens after a UI comes into being.

Reference the post # where I said that?

BonnieSituation

It never ends...

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because it will be a poll on a 'UI' not partition in another guise. You can still call it 'wee Norn Ireland' with your mates down t'pub. Meanwhile others will get on with unification and moving forward as one island.

No devolution? According to lord francies

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

We have 4 provinces in Ireland. Ulster, Munster, Leinster and Connaught. You would just be subsumed into Ulster.

Says lord Beltby

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

The ROI are obliged to offer citizenship to anyone in NI as part of the GFA. If they dont they are breaking the GFA.

Ittakestwo Unfortunately you are argue with 3 or 4 people who will argue black is white when it suits. But more than that, when they are losing their argument they will imply you said all sorts of things you didn’t. They will club up to convince you that they are correct due to force of numbers. I have been there many times.
Of course other posters on here know what you mean. You didn’t say that ni get Irish passports ‘because of the gfa’ rather you said that Roi must give Irish passports going forward ‘because of the gfa’ you are right, this is knew because of the gfa. Roi would have been fully entitled to change their rules and stop giving passports to ni at any time before gfa; they now do not have that option.

Also Francie and beltby thankfully would only be two people out of 5million deciding wether there would be devolution given to areas of the island, and what the borders of those areas would be. They are living in 1916 and think ni never existed separately and that the only way the island can be carved for devolution is along old province boundaries. They are looking from their paradigm and don’t have the capacity to see other opinions.

Your argument is very reasonable and you are correct that we simply don’t know - unless of course these four posters end up running the country

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why? The GFA will be irrelevant in large measure after a UI.

There will be a new treaty between Ireland and the UK to supercede it. We will enact and Act as will the UK.

.....and Francie can guarantee that there will be a paragraph in it stateing that there can be zero devolution given to the old occupied six. He has some insight!

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Right. Finally, we get to the nub.

Now please read this carefully.

The right to Irish citizenship will remain unchanged in the event of a UI as the people born in the former territory of NI will obviously be now born in the new UI State.

Do you understand? The rights to citizenship will follow from that. As it stands those born in NI (subject to the 2006 Act) already have this right. There will be no change WHATSOEVER to the right to citizenship in the event of UI.

If there were we would be creating a whole cohort of STATELESS people.

I fail to see how you thought that the State would cease to grant citizenship to its citizens after a UI comes into being.

My brain is actually itchy here wondering how you could possibly have come to this conclusion.

Here is the problem plain to see. Bonnie is in his own world and just making your previous posts mean what he wants them to

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

Reference the post # where I said that?

Yes Bonnie please reference it. We all wondered what your ramblings were about. So help us. Please reference where you thought ittakestwo was saying he thought Roi wanted to stop giving Irish citizenships to six counties.
It’s real fantasy stuff

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

.....and Francie can guarantee that there will be a paragraph in it stateing that there can be zero devolution given to the old occupied six. He has some insight!

So let me get this straight.

If you lose the vote and a majority vote for a UI, YOU WANT a guarantee that NI will survive regardless of the the outcome of the vote and just carry on as a devolved entity?

Have you any idea how unhinged that sounds?

Jump_In_Jack

It sounds like a lot of disconnected posts here the last few pages,

The GFA as far as I can tell allows for anyone born in Northern Ireland up to a UI the right to a UK passport and an equal right to an Irish passport.

After a United Ireland, those people have been promised by the UK that they will retain their right to a UK passport.

However, after that time nobody knows what the UK will do, it is not certain, they might continue to grant passports to people born in NI after a UI takes place (hypothetically) or they may decide to wind it up and only give it for the next generation or two and thereafter rescind the right from people in the 6 counties.

Does that make sense?

FrancieBrady

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

It sounds like a lot of disconnected posts here the last few pages,

The GFA as far as I can tell allows for anyone born in Northern Ireland up to a UI the right to a UK passport and an equal right to an Irish passport.

After a United Ireland, those people have been promised by the UK that they will retain their right to a UK passport.

However, after that time nobody knows what the UK will do, it is not certain, they might continue to grant passports to people born in NI after a UI takes place (hypothetically) or they may decide to wind it up and only give it for the next generation or two and thereafter rescind the right from people in the 6 counties.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes sense.

Ultimately it is an issue for the UK and Unionists, between themselves. Those who wish to identify as British will have protections in the new state. For however long the UK recognises them.

Other than that, it really isn't Ireland's issue but one for Unionists to seek security on.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So let me get this straight.

If you lose the vote and a majority vote for a UI, YOU WANT a guarantee that NI will survive regardless of the the outcome of the vote and just carry on as a devolved entity?

Have you any idea how unhinged that sounds?

Now maybe you would reference where i said that?? more fantasy

downcow

Here is a very interesting objective piece. Certainly blows any idea of a failed ni out of the water, but does identify how some like to spin that angle
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/interdependence-is-the-antidote-to-northern-irish-politics-1.4454668?fbclid=IwAR1KsSh_SWkC0b3HNELmsDFkAAk7pRvRmzirI-yPHflBlkVEMNDlyaa39DY

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Here is a very interesting objective piece. Certainly blows any idea of a failed ni out of the water, but does identify how some like to spin that angle
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/interdependence-is-the-antidote-to-northern-irish-politics-1.4454668?fbclid=IwAR1KsSh_SWkC0b3HNELmsDFkAAk7pRvRmzirI-yPHflBlkVEMNDlyaa39DY

All opinions should be listened to (although I don't see how it blew NI being a failed State out of the water).

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Ittakestwo Unfortunately you are argue with 3 or 4 people who will argue black is white when it suits. But more than that, when they are losing their argument they will imply you said all sorts of things you didn’t. They will club up to convince you that they are correct due to force of numbers. I have been there many times.
Of course other posters on here know what you mean. You didn’t say that ni get Irish passports ‘because of the gfa’ rather you said that Roi must give Irish passports going forward ‘because of the gfa’ you are right, this is knew because of the gfa. Roi would have been fully entitled to change their rules and stop giving passports to ni at any time before gfa; they now do not have that option.

Also Francie and beltby thankfully would only be two people out of 5million deciding wether there would be devolution given to areas of the island, and what the borders of those areas would be. They are living in 1916 and think ni never existed separately and that the only way the island can be carved for devolution is along old province boundaries. They are looking from their paradigm and don’t have the capacity to see other opinions.

Your argument is very reasonable and you are correct that we simply don’t know - unless of course these four posters end up running the country

I don't think anyone is talking about what WILL happen post unification, Downcow.

What is being discussed is what is guaranteed by the GFA.

It is possible that a devolved NI, with entitlement to British citizenship in perpetuity will be the negotiated agreement reached by Britain and Ireland, but neither of those things are guaranteed by the GFA.

I've been very clear that we don't know what the resulting settlement will be, very clear that I suspect the British government will continue to offer citizenship to the people of the area formerly known as Northern Ireland, and very clear that I would be disappointed for you and future generations from your community should this not happen. My point is purely that this is not guaranteed by the GFA, as the definition of, 'the people of Northern Ireland' as dictated by the agreement would not apply to people born there post unification.

The Irish government must offer Irish passports going forward because of the GFA, up to the point of unification, at which point it must continue to offer Irish passports because those people would be part of a unified Irish state.

The British government must offer British passports going forward because of the GFA up to the point of unification, at which point the definition which binds them to this in the GFA no longer applies.

We all suspect, and I hope it will continue beyond this point (I for one wouldn't be against the idea of at least temporarily continuing with a devolved NI gradually integrating with Ireland, or a more federal arrangement for all of Ireland) but claiming that it is guaranteed by the GFA is erroneous, I'd imagine mostly wishful thinking on your part.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Here is a very interesting objective piece. Certainly blows any idea of a failed ni out of the water, but does identify how some like to spin that angle
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/interdependence-is-the-antidote-to-northern-irish-politics-1.4454668?fbclid=IwAR1KsSh_SWkC0b3HNELmsDFkAAk7pRvRmzirI-yPHflBlkVEMNDlyaa39DY

Mr Shirlow would NOT be writing on the subject if NI had succeeded as a state downcow. Don't you get the irony?

NI is in a perpetual constitutional limbo precisely because it and partition has failed.

I agree with him by the way that the only way this is going is towards further integration of the economies and institutions leading inevitably to unity.

As I said before I think the British signed the GFA because they knew the only 'clean' way out for them was to get the people of the island of Ireland to ask for and vote for Unity themselves.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Now maybe you would reference where i said that?? more fantasy

What would this 'paragraph' in a new agreement say downcow?

Hamsterchops

So let's say there is a vote in 2030 (earliest realistic date) on Northern Ireland staying within, or leaving the United Kingdom.

Vote A that Northern Ireland leave the United Kingdom in its entirety, that it ceases to be in any part politically or otherwise connected to the island of Great Britain.

Vote B that Northern Ireland stays as per current political-devolved arrangements within the United Kingdom of GB and Northern Ireland...

My question is, if vote A wins the day does that automatically translate into NI becoming part of this State? Or is there a grey area whereby NI has voted to leave the United Kingdom, but not necessarily voted to become part of this State?

Could NI become like the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands, not part of the UK but still keeping close connections as an independent political entity with zero input from Westminster.

How the question and phrased & worded will be critical for both sides.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So let's say there is a vote in 2030 (earliest realistic date) on Northern Ireland staying within, or leaving the United Kingdom.

Vote A that Northern Ireland leave the United Kingdom in its entirety, that it ceases to be in any part politically or otherwise connected to the island of Great Britain.

Vote B that Northern Ireland stays as per current political-devolved arrangements within the United Kingdom of GB and Northern Ireland...

My question is, if vote A wins the day does that automatically translate into NI becoming part of this State? Or is there a grey area whereby NI has voted to leave the United Kingdom, but not necessarily voted to become part of this State?

Could NI become like the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands, not part of the UK but still keeping close connections as an independent political entity with zero input from Westminster.

That's enough to be going in with for now

How the question and phrased & worded will be critical for both sides.

That would require a new Agreement and the shelving of the GFA before a poll as it is not an option in the GFA.

The GFA is explicit on making the arrangement for a border poll on 'unity' and both governments have committed to fulfilling that if it is the wish of the majority.

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That would require a new Agreement and the shelving of the GFA before a poll as it is not an option in the GFA.

The GFA is explicit on making the arrangement for a border poll on 'unity' and both governments have committed to fulfilling that if it is the wish of the majority.

So in essence they would give up for form of unity (with GB) for another form of unity (with this state)

Well that seems clear cut enough, but when might the vote happen?

I said 2030, but maybe that's too soon realistically?