Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The facetiousness is hanging out of your post, Downcow.

As you're well aware, you're asking about a period of history that predates partition, it is OUR shared history. I very much doubt anyone could live on a small island for their entire life and have such little knowledge about ten miles down the road, unless they were going out of their way to remain ignorant.

Where does your desperate insistence on distancing yourself from anything Irish end? Do you ignore the stories of the Ulster Cycle as being, 'ROI myth and legend'? Are you afraid to share the stories of Fionn mac Cumhaill with your future generations in case they feel a bit too taigy, rooting for Fionn over the Scottish Benandonner?

Its particularly weird given how significant Ulster was throughout our history, particularly in the era you're asking about.

I suspect that perhaps rather than a genuine question, you're trying to make some petty point about the changing provinces to justify the partition of Ireland as if provincial borders changing is some big Gotcha.

Just on the very remote possibility that it was a genuine question asked clumsily, not only have the borders changed, historically there were times with significantly more than 4 provinces. The term in the Irish language is cúige, meaning Fifth, as traditionally there were five, though often there were more.

Also amusing with Francie referring to it as a Northern county, Louth was in fact part of Ulster at one point.

Cavan was a part of Leinster once too (and they can have it back )

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

The UK, is the term I would generally use.

What's the view from Kerry on the most up to date poll we have? Still think it is all going to go away?

Hellokitty1212

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Cavan was a part of Leinster once too (and they can have it back )

I actually never knew that!!

And no backsies...

coolbeans

BonnieSituation wrote: »

There was no passive aggression. Just proper old-fashioned disdain for your input.

Perhaps you could read the posts as they are written before you start 'correcting' or 'commenting' upon them.

I'm just pointing out what you deny. The meaningful vote goes to the people of NI not the Republic. Of course you'd deny them that as your tolerance for the unionists is clearly low. It's people like you that will have this country partitioned into the future with your disdain for any point of view but your own.

Natterjack from Kerry

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What's the view from Kerry on the most up to date poll we have? Still think it is all going to go away?

Thats what the numbers say. Majority amongst those who have a preference to remain in the UK even without the dont knows gives a 6 point margin in favour of the UK, and a high level of dont knows who are the ones who are will swing to remain as the benefits of the Brexit deal become evident if they werent already going to.

Combine that majority with the second poll which found strong interest in a poll itself, shows there is a real desire to settle this issue according to the poll data, and not have it as an eternal debate stiffling life, politics, and business there.

While I live in ROI now, am not in Kerry, but with a lot of business contacts in both Belfast and the Craigavon/Portadown area, am up in the UK regularly.

FrancieBrady

coolbeans wrote: »

I'm just pointing out what you deny. The meaningful vote goes to the people of NI not the Republic. Of course you'd deny them that as your tolerance for the unionists is clearly low. It's people like you that will have this country partitioned into the future with your disdain for any point of view but your own.

The vote in the North has no meaning if not accompanied by agreement here.

FrancieBrady

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Thats what the numbers say. Majority amongst those who have a preference to remain in the UK even without the dont knows gives a 6 point margin in favour of the UK, and a high level of dont knows who are the ones who are will swing to remain as the benefits of the Brexit deal become evident if they werent already going to.

Combine that majority with the second poll which found strong interest in a poll itself, shows there is a real desire to settle this issue according to the poll data, and not have it as an eternal debate stiffling life, politics, and business there.

While I live in ROI now, am not in Kerry, but with a lot of business contacts in both Belfast and the Craigavon/Portadown area, am up in the UK regularly.

I also do a lot of business in the north and any 'interests' I talk to from both sides want to be fully in the EU and don't see any huge benefits with the deal when weighed against the disadvantages.
They in fact say to me that the deal only really beneifts huge companies/corporations and not the SME's. And I am not seeing any sign yet of corporations planning to flood into NI.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

You are suggesting that the people of Roi have some input to enable a UI. They don’t. They can only prevent a UI ie accept or reject if the people of NI ever Choose a UI

Oh look, it's downcow putting words in my mouth again. What a surprise!

coolbeans

downcow wrote: »

You are suggesting that the people of Roi have some input to enable a UI. They don’t. They can only prevent a UI ie accept or reject if the people of NI ever Choose a UI

This is the point I'm trying to make. Personally, I'd be a soft nationalist in that I have no interest in forcing people like downcow into a union with the Republic unless they're actually going to buy into it. As I said, and this is clearly what triggers bonnysitch, people in the North and only they have the ultimate say which is how it should be. In a referendum if it were ever to be held intolerant republicans like bonny will in my opinion alienate those of a unionist persuasion who may be open to convincing either way.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Francie you are hung up on defining whether ni is a region, country, nation, etc.
It can be all in different contexts as Roi is. Some call Roi the 26 counties, some a region of EU, some say it is a country, some say its a nation and you will see many republicans on here saying it is none of the above.
So let’s park this nonsense about NI can only be referred to by one term.
Personally I prefer OWC most of the time

Why do you get so hung up on telling people what they say or think?

Very dictatorial.

If you were any good at it I would probably let it slide, as it is, it's just nonsensical observations wrapped in faux-incredulity.

Having an issue with a compass' cardinal directions as used by Francie in the post you quoted is a new one on me.

Take it easy.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Bonnies poll question referred to Northern Ireland being part of a United ireland. Whereas you are saying it will cease to exist as an entity. If that’s what you intend then you should have the balls to put it in the question and watch how that impacts a poll

Another layer of obfuscation.

Such nonsense.

How would you phrase it?

(I know you don't like to answer questions directly, but sure, humour me)

FrancieBrady

coolbeans wrote: »

This is the point I'm trying to make. Personally, I'd be a soft nationalist in that I have no interest in forcing people like downcow into a union with the Republic unless they're actually going to buy into it. As I said, and this is clearly what triggers bonnysitch, people in the North and only they have the ultimate say which is how it should be. In a referendum if it were ever to be held intolerant republicans like bonny will in my opinion alienate those of a unionist persuasion who may be open to convincing either way.

I think you got the wrong end of the stick on this one. It is a fact that it is for the peple of the island to decide their fate without outside impediment (that was the British promising to be neutral on the issue).
Nobody has said, that I can see, that the people of NI have to vote in favour first is not how it will happen.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Seems Bonnie already knows the basis of the question but good to hear you don’t agree that question is a done deal

Oh look, downcow making shít up again.

Can we add that to the pile of lies?

coolbeans

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The vote in the North has no meaning if not accompanied by agreement here.

With respect a no in the North would have meaning regardless of the result in the Republic.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Quite a possiblity now that a UI and Scottish referendum would be held at the same time. A fundamental question for the future of UK.
IMO the UK has been slowly breaking up since the first Scottish Referendum. Brexit is a symtom of that rather than a cause.

It's been breaking up since the 20s. It was just slowed down a wee bit because of the sectarian bigoted hole that Craig and Co created.

BonnieSituation

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

A partitioned island surely ? The island of Ireland can by no stretch be considered a nation.

Now that's a stretch.

FrancieBrady

coolbeans wrote: »

With respect a no in the North would have meaning regardless of the result in the Republic.

And vice versa. The results will have meaning whatever way they go.

Nobody has claimed that NI will be forced to do anything via a yes vote here, we know there has to be a majority in favour there.

BonnieSituation

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The facetiousness is hanging out of your post, Downcow.

As you're well aware, you're asking about a period of history that predates partition, it is OUR shared history. I very much doubt anyone could live on a small island for their entire life and have such little knowledge about ten miles down the road, unless they were going out of their way to remain ignorant.

Where does your desperate insistence on distancing yourself from anything Irish end? Do you ignore the stories of the Ulster Cycle as being, 'ROI myth and legend'? Are you afraid to share the stories of Fionn mac Cumhaill with your future generations in case they feel a bit too taigy, rooting for Fionn over the Scottish Benandonner?

Its particularly weird given how significant Ulster was throughout our history, particularly in the era you're asking about.

I suspect that perhaps rather than a genuine question, you're trying to make some petty point about the changing provinces to justify the partition of Ireland as if provincial borders changing is some big Gotcha.

Just on the very remote possibility that it was a genuine question asked clumsily, not only have the borders changed, historically there were times with significantly more than 4 provinces. The term in the Irish language is cúige, meaning Fifth, as traditionally there were five, though often there were more.

Also amusing with Francie referring to it as a Northern county, Louth was in fact part of Ulster at one point.

He'll get a wee shock if he were ever to do any research on Oriel.

Another reason for a UI is to save Unionists from themselves. We need a UI to achieve security on this island from virus spread.

BonnieSituation

coolbeans wrote: »

I'm just pointing out what you deny. The meaningful vote goes to the people of NI not the Republic. Of course you'd deny them that as your tolerance for the unionists is clearly low. It's people like you that will have this country partitioned into the future with your disdain for any point of view but your own.

Wait, you read my posts and still out with this bumpf.

It's probably best you go and read them again.

Perhaps brush up on the definition of 'Ireland' while you're at it.

Also, my tolerance is pretty low alright, for Partitionists and belligerent Unionists. You're in good company.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, you are calling it a 'wee country' today, I saw that.


I live here in Ireland, which is a sovereign country that is a part of a partitioned nation.

You’ve ducked the question again. I think we all knew it was a country. I was wondering would you also regard it as a region of the EU and is it a nation.
And since you stayed the factual position on ROI. What would you regard as the factual position on the UK. Is it also a sovereign country or is it a sovereign nation or something else?

BonnieSituation

coolbeans wrote: »

This is the point I'm trying to make. Personally, I'd be a soft nationalist in that I have no interest in forcing people like downcow into a union with the Republic unless they're actually going to buy into it. As I said, and this is clearly what triggers bonnysitch, people in the North and only they have the ultimate say which is how it should be. In a referendum if it were ever to be held intolerant republicans like bonny will in my opinion alienate those of a unionist persuasion who may be open to convincing either way.

No one's forcing anybody. It's a well worn trope of Partitionists and belligerent Unionists as to make out that a border poll is divisive and solely the preserve of the Provos or whatever boogie man they like today.

You know how the principle of consent works right? And that a result in favour of a UI in a referendum is a manifestation of that consent?

The only alienation that will occur will be at the hand of belligerent Unionists like downcow. I have zero interest in wasting energy in trying to convince them that a UI is the best choice. There's a whole heap of people in the middle that are deserving of attention and having their fears assuaged.

Belligerent Unionists just want to stifle debate or create inane non-sequiturs that have nothing substantive therein.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You’ve ducked the question again. I think we all knew it was a country. I was wondering would you also regard it as a region of the EU and is it a nation.
And since you stayed the factual position on ROI. What would you regard as the factual position on the UK. Is it also a sovereign country or is it a sovereign nation or something else?

The question is answered. If you wish to divert to something other than the topic of the thread (whatever it is you are talking about or trying to prove) open a new thread.

BonnieSituation

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

The UK, is the term I would generally use.

So you say, I'm going to the UK when you're heading to one of Fermanagh, Armagh, Tyrone, Derry, Antrim or Down?

Cos it's obviously nonsense.

It's like all this Unionists never say Londonderry... Unless of course a camera is on them or they're on the phone to Nolan. Catch yourself on.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think you got the wrong end of the stick on this one. It is a fact that it is for the peple of the island to decide their fate without outside impediment (that was the British promising to be neutral on the issue).
Nobody has said, that I can see, that the people of NI have to vote in favour first is not how it will happen.

Thanks Francie.

You'd think it would be obvious, especially when spelled out with text from the actual GFA.

Perhaps it was too much of a read for some.

BonnieSituation

coolbeans wrote: »

With respect a no in the North would have meaning regardless of the result in the Republic.

No one has said anything to the contrary of this and yet you keep repeating it.

I'd suggest doing some reading.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The question is answered. If you wish to divert to something other than the topic of the thread (whatever it is you are talking about or trying to prove) open a new thread.

It was you diverted Francie by having a go at me calling ni a country one day and a region the next.
But I am happy we both accept it was a pointless diversion

blanch152

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It sure doesn't. Did I say it did? Read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote.

The question is based on wording of a passage within the GFA on how the SoS would call a referendum. I'd envisage that any question would be along those lines. I mean, it's merely a pointer to the latest uninformed Partitionist to wander in here.



It's almost like you're making up something to dismiss my post.

Do you recall how referenda are conducted here?

We answer a question with either Tá/Yes or Níl/No.

That question is formulated in such a way to enact amendments to any articles of the Constitution as required. You see all of that heavy lifting is done long before the campaign would start via committees and debates in the Oireachtas.

Of course, you might not have known how this works of course and weren't at all being disingenuous and creating a new strawman.

This is what you said, two referenda, one wording.

That is not what the above post says.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

There's going to be 2 referenda; one in the north and one in the south, and they will consist of one question:

Should Northern Ireland cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland?

*That's based on the wording in the GFA. It'll be along those lines.

blanch152

BonnieSituation wrote: »

No one's forcing anybody. It's a well worn trope of Partitionists and belligerent Unionists as to make out that a border poll is divisive and solely the preserve of the Provos or whatever boogie man they like today.

You know how the principle of consent works right? And that a result in favour of a UI in a referendum is a manifestation of that consent?

The only alienation that will occur will be at the hand of belligerent Unionists like downcow. I have zero interest in wasting energy in trying to convince them that a UI is the best choice. There's a whole heap of people in the middle that are deserving of attention and having their fears assuaged.

Belligerent Unionists just want to stifle debate or create inane non-sequiturs that have nothing substantive therein.

A border poll held before it is clear that it is likely that it will be passed, is by definition divisive, as it breaches the terms of the GFA.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

A border poll held before it is clear that it is likely that it will be passed, is by definition divisive, as it breaches the terms of the GFA.

'clear that it is likely'? How can you be clear about something that is likely?

Likely means 'probable'. That's as clear as it gets or needs to get. The SoS could if he wished decide that it is probable based on the current poll. 11% undecided Support growing for a UI...very likely depending on your view.