Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Look around you, who are the people advocating for an immediate border poll?

Most are saying it isn't time. Give the stage to those who say this is wrong and that we should have one now, and they will either take enough rope to hang themselves or win hearts and minds.

If they are not up to the challenge, that is its own answer.

Who is advocating for an immediate border poll?

Dyr

blanch152 wrote: »

He caused our country to be impoverished.

The population of Ireland in 1922 was 3.07m. Under DeValera it fell to 2.85m, 200,000 less. I don't think we would have lost that many in WW2.

So many people lost to emigration and died early because of poverty. It took until the early 1970s for the population to go back above 3m. All because of a stupid exclusionary nationalist ideology pursued by DeValera.

We cowardly ran away from the fight against the Nazis. A shameful time for Ireland.

Dev didnt come to power until 1937 so you're figures from 22 are pretty irrelevant, especially considering the mini famines and hardship the previous government presided over. Either way, bitching about population drops and also bitching that Dev, very wisely, kept us out of the cluster**** that was WW2, where European nations lost vast swathes of their population, is pretty rich.

blanch152

Bambi wrote: »

Dev didnt come to power until 1937 so you're figures from 22 are pretty irrelevant, especially considering the mini famines and hardship the previous government presided over. Either way, bitching about population drops and also bitching that Dev, very wisely, kept us out of the cluster**** that was WW2, where European nations lost vast swathes of their population, is pretty rich.

The point I am making is that the policies of Dev cost us far more people on this island than participation in WW2 would have.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The point I am making is that the policies of Dev cost us far more people on this island than participation in WW2 would have.

How in the world are you calculating that?

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

The point I am making is that the policies of Dev cost us far more people on this island than participation in WW2 would have.

Dev wasn't the one who sold off Northern Ireland in exchange for debt relief!

McMurphy

Interesting, seems the loyalists are becoming disgruntled with the very thing they are supposedly loyal to.

The Shinners being 5% ahead of the DUPers is some gap, there will be serious discussions on Irish unity happening in the not so distant future.


https://twitter.com/Stephan90523217/status/1356198047366189057?s=19

RobMc59

blanch152 wrote: »

The point I am making is that the policies of Dev cost us far more people on this island than participation in WW2 would have.

Didn't he send condolences when hitler died?

FrancieBrady

Things are getting deperate for the Unionists...'force' companies to sell to them?

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/legislate-force-british-firms-sell-northern-ireland-ulster-unionist-party-urges-boris-johnson-3120204

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Things are getting deperate for the Unionists...'force' companies to sell to them?

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/legislate-force-british-firms-sell-northern-ireland-ulster-unionist-party-urges-boris-johnson-3120204

People are used to the things they like being on shelves in the supermarket. They are used to shopping in Sainsburys and not in SuperValu or Dunnes. Don't underestimate how incidents like this will turn people against a united Ireland. Deny them their Britishness and you will get a response.

Package ah crips

The north of Ireland was Gerrymandered into existence.

We need a border poll ASAP.

If we get a yes vote, unite Ireland and join Schengen.

If it’s a no vote, cut our losses, rewrite the GFA, put up a border and join Schengen.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

People are used to the things they like being on shelves in the supermarket. They are used to shopping in Sainsburys and not in SuperValu or Dunnes. Don't underestimate how incidents like this will turn people against a united Ireland. Deny them their Britishness and you will get a response.

Are they?

Is shopping in Sainsbury's now something to add to the list of things under attack?

I'm assuming you're aware of Spar, Musgraves and Dunnes long presence in the North?

"Fred, we've got no bread..."

If someone feels that the lack of scotch eggs on a shelf is an attack on their Britishness it's hardly likely they were voting for a UI, now isn't it?

That being said, is there a chance you bought up their entire stock of red herring?

---

Nice to see your concern, but yet the continued othering of Irishmen and women across multiple threads.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Are they?

Is shopping in Sainsbury's now something to add to the list of things under attack?

I'm assuming you're aware of Spar, Musgraves and Dunnes long presence in the North?

"Fred, we've got no bread..."

If someone feels that the lack of scotch eggs on a shelf is an attack on their Britishness it's hardly likely they were voting for a UI, now isn't it?

That being said, is there a chance you bought up their entire stock of red herring?

---

Nice to see your concern, but yet the continued othering of Irishmen and women across multiple threads.

A red herring and completely ignored the central absurdity...trying to order companies to do their bidding.

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

People are used to the things they like being on shelves in the supermarket. They are used to shopping in Sainsburys and not in SuperValu or Dunnes. Don't underestimate how incidents like this will turn people against a united Ireland. Deny them their Britishness and you will get a response.

This is such an odd take....you know there are Dunnes and SuperValu in the North?

Honestly, there were a few changes I experienced moving from one side of the border to the other.....but shopping in f*cking Sainsburys sure as sh*t wasn't one of them. I dont know anyone from a Unionist background who would even raise this as a concern....Oh no, my local Tesco has....oh wait, the exact same stuff.

Honestly you're nearly grinding through wood you're scraping the barrel so hard.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

This is such an odd take....you know there are Dunnes and SuperValu in the North?

Honestly, there were a few changes I experienced moving from one side of the border to the other.....but shopping in f*cking Sainsburys sure as sh*t wasn't one of them. I dont know anyone from a Unionist background who would even raise this as a concern....Oh no, my local Tesco has....oh wait, the exact same stuff.

Honestly you're nearly grinding through wood you're scraping the barrel so hard.

They'll be looking an Orange March up the frozen food aisle next.

ittakestwo

blanch152 wrote: »

People are used to the things they like being on shelves in the supermarket. They are used to shopping in Sainsburys and not in SuperValu or Dunnes. Don't underestimate how incidents like this will turn people against a united Ireland. Deny them their Britishness and you will get a response.

But it is the NI protocol that has lead to this. The UK government agreed to the NI protocol. Surely the unionists must only blame London for this. But at the end of the day NI accounts for 2% of the UK population and most people in GB have never been to NI. Brexiteers represent alot of English nationalists who are not willing to cancel Brexit because NI gets left behind. That is something unionists have to except. People in GB are willing to leave NI behind.

The default position for unionists is to blame Ireland or nationalist for something that makes a UI more likely but in this situation you can only blame London and the will of the GB people.

FrancieBrady

ittakestwo wrote: »

But it is the NI protocol that has lead to this. The UK government agreed to the NI protocol. Surely the unionists must only blame London for this. But at the end of the day NI accounts for 2% of the UK population and most people in GB have never been to NI. Brexiteers represent alot of English nationalists who are not willing to cancel Brexit because NI gets left behind. That is something unionists have to except. People in GB are willing to leave NI behind.

The default position for unionists is to blame Ireland or nationalist for something that makes a UI more likely but in this situation you can only blame London and the will of the GB people.

...and their own longstanding inability to see the wood for the trees to be completely fair.

Mad_maxx

Bambi wrote: »

Dev didnt come to power until 1937 so you're figures from 22 are pretty irrelevant, especially considering the mini famines and hardship the previous government presided over. Either way, bitching about population drops and also bitching that Dev, very wisely, kept us out of the cluster**** that was WW2, where European nations lost vast swathes of their population, is pretty rich.

Dev came to power in 1932

votecounts

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1356345864298573824


Another proud moment for the North as the UDA scum get their way. Why isn't the PSNI doing something about this.

BonnieSituation

Unionists are special:

In response, Mr Lewis said he supported DUP First Minister Arlene Foster’s request for Taoiseach Micheal Martin to fully investigate allegations that former Garda members colluded with the IRA during the Troubles.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/ian-paisley-criticised-over-catholic-ira-comment-40023024.html

We'll get right on that, but we need to have a word about Dublin/Monaghan first...

blanch152

Fionn1952 wrote: »

This is such an odd take....you know there are Dunnes and SuperValu in the North?

Honestly, there were a few changes I experienced moving from one side of the border to the other.....but shopping in f*cking Sainsburys sure as sh*t wasn't one of them. I dont know anyone from a Unionist background who would even raise this as a concern....Oh no, my local Tesco has....oh wait, the exact same stuff.

Honestly you're nearly grinding through wood you're scraping the barrel so hard.

It is not an odd take.

Everything from road-signs to traffic lights to hospitals to grammar schools to availability of shops not to mention income tax and social welfare will be transformed beyond recognition for everyone in the North in a united Ireland.

A taste of the reality of that is being shown by the NI Protocol in empty shelves in Asda and Sainsbury's and the people don't like it.

You can't reverse 100 years of divergence in an instant.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

It is not an odd take.

Everything from road-signs to traffic lights to hospitals to grammar schools to availability of shops not to mention income tax and social welfare will be transformed beyond recognition for everyone in the North in a united Ireland.

A taste of the reality of that is being shown by the NI Protocol in empty shelves in Asda and Sainsbury's and the people don't like it.

You can't reverse 100 years of divergence in an instant.

Things will change here too blanch. The power swap will probably go, which will be a good thing. Politics will realign. No reason why we cannot keep what is done better in NI either.

Who knows Sanisbury's may be attracted to the all island economy too.

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

It is not an odd take.

Everything from road-signs to traffic lights to hospitals to grammar schools to availability of shops not to mention income tax and social welfare will be transformed beyond recognition for everyone in the North in a united Ireland.

A taste of the reality of that is being shown by the NI Protocol in empty shelves in Asda and Sainsbury's and the people don't like it.

You can't reverse 100 years of divergence in an instant.

Yes, no one is suggesting that nothing will change....things changing is the point.

What is odd is your repeated suggestion that having to shop in Dunnes or Super Valu instead of Sainsburys is in any way going to influence votes one way or the other.

Tax, welfare harmonisation etc, you have a legitimate point with those as postnatal motivating factors, so why do you keep leading with the Sainsburys nonsense?

As for empty shelves in Asda and said Sainsburys, of course people don't like it.....but you'll note that NI is still part of the UK and those shelves are empty because of decisions made by the British government against the wishes of the majority of the NI population. People aren't annoyed because their supermarket isn't British enough....you know Lidl, Aldi and indeed Dunnes do very well up there, right?

If Unification was voted for, and then implemented with no advance notice to give supermarkets time to adjust supply chains, the point about empty shelves may be relevant, but who is arguing for this overnight flick of a switch transition to reverse 100 years of divergence in an instant?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Things will change here too blanch. The power swap will probably go, which will be a good thing. Politics will realign. No reason why we cannot keep what is done better in NI either.

Who knows Sanisbury's may be attracted to the all island economy too.

I think the NI Protocol is showing the opposite. It is demonstrating that in closer ties to the South only, the elements of everyday Britishness that people cherish (as opposed to nasty flag-waving Britishness) will be lost in a united Ireland.

The second lesson from Brexit is that people were told that nothing would change on this stuff. That was a lie. Similarly it is a lie to say that you can keep the British stuff you like in a united Ireland.

People will now be slower to vote for change.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I think the NI Protocol is showing the opposite. It is demonstrating that in closer ties to the South only, the elements of everyday Britishness that people cherish (as opposed to nasty flag-waving Britishness) will be lost in a united Ireland.

The second lesson from Brexit is that people were told that nothing would change on this stuff. That was a lie. Similarly it is a lie to say that you can keep the British stuff you like in a united Ireland.

People will now be slower to vote for change.

British people lied to themselves about Brexit and to those who identify as British in Ireland. This we know only too well.

The issues with the Protocol stem from British people not operating it fully or properly.

Things will change on this island for everyone, be under no illusions about that, in case you are crying that you were not told things would change.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

British people lied to themselves about Brexit and to those who identify as British in Ireland. This we know only too well.

The issues with the Protocol stem from British people not operating it fully or properly.

Things will change on this island for everyone, be under no illusions about that, in case you are crying that you were not told things would change.

The issues with the Protocol come back to something I said a year ago, that trade patterns meant that the North would suffer more from an Irish Sea border than from a border on this island. I predicted it, it is happening, expect some quiet loosening of the rules to fix it, but don't say you weren't warned.

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

The issues with the Protocol come back to something I said a year ago, that trade patterns meant that the North would suffer more from an Irish Sea border than from a border on this island. I predicted it, it is happening, expect some quiet loosening of the rules to fix it, but don't say you weren't warned.

This is a total strawman, Blanch.

The Irish Sea border has led to suffering for people in the North. This statement is true, and no one has argued that this wasn't true nor did most reasonable people believe it wouldn't be true, except those trying to sell the deal as a great victory for the UK.

The Irish Sea border has led to MORE suffering than an Irish land border would have.....this is totally unevidenced and in no way a logical conclusion from current events.

With the same amount of evidence as you (i.e. none beyond questionable extrapolation of data), I could state that given the disruption caused by an Irish Sea border, we were totally correct to avoid a land border as the consequences would've been so much worse just as I predicted.....

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The issues with the Protocol come back to something I said a year ago, that trade patterns meant that the North would suffer more from an Irish Sea border than from a border on this island. I predicted it, it is happening, expect some quiet loosening of the rules to fix it, but don't say you weren't warned.

The partitionist coming out in you again and the alignment with the DUP.

EVERYONE knew that Brexit would produce a negative effect for everyone involved.

What they STILL haven't realised is that there will be permanent negative effects once the problems with the operation of the protocol (mainly due to British and NI refusal to be prepared) are eased. We in the EU will have no issue easing those issues but the negative effect will pertain. There is and will be a cost to Brexit.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

The issues with the Protocol come back to something I said a year ago, that trade patterns meant that the North would suffer more from an Irish Sea border than from a border on this island. I predicted it, it is happening, expect some quiet loosening of the rules to fix it, but don't say you weren't warned.

You really should read what you write before you publish it because if you did you'd understand just how nonsensical it is.

Above you are comparing something that is happening (Irish Sea Border for goods) to something that hasn't (Land Border) and are saying the former is worse than the latter.

Up your game, it's embarrassing.

RobMc59

blanch152 wrote: »

The issues with the Protocol come back to something I said a year ago, that trade patterns meant that the North would suffer more from an Irish Sea border than from a border on this island. I predicted it, it is happening, expect some quiet loosening of the rules to fix it, but don't say you weren't warned.

You are correct Blanch but the majority of republican posters here would rather see NI struggling as that suits their agenda. I also agree that in reality,there will be dialogue between the UK/NI and the EU behind the scenes.

blanch152

RobMc59 wrote: »

You are correct Blanch but the majority of republican posters here would rather see NI struggling as that suits their agenda. I also agree that in reality,there will be dialogue between the UK/NI and the EU behind the scenes.

They would impoverish the people of this island if they thought it would mean unification.