Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

You are correct Blanch but the majority of republican posters here would rather see NI struggling as that suits their agenda. I also agree that in reality,there will be dialogue between the UK/NI and the EU behind the scenes.

NI has 'struggled' for most of it's 100 years Rob. Hadn't you noticed?

The UK is over a barrel here. Once again, spouting rhetoric and raising the bully boys has failed for them. Their demands repudiated by us in the EU and there is nothing they can do but keep raising the temperature.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

I think the NI Protocol is showing the opposite. It is demonstrating that in closer ties to the South only, the elements of everyday Britishness that people cherish (as opposed to nasty flag-waving Britishness) will be lost in a united Ireland.

Like scotch eggs and Tizer?

This is barrel-scraping stuff.

The second lesson from Brexit is that people were told that nothing would change on this stuff. That was a lie.

Who lied to them? Was it SF? Republicans? Francie? Or perhaps the Tories?

Similarly it is a lie to say that you can keep the British stuff you like in a united Ireland.

Who has ever said that? What campaigns against Hovis and Tetley have I missed?

Impressive, building your own strawmen to argue with yourself with. Wow.

People will now be slower to vote for change.

Well, that's a hot-take and a half. I need to have a seat. Bear with me.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

You are correct Blanch but the majority of republican posters here would rather see NI struggling as that suits their agenda. I also agree that in reality,there will be dialogue between the UK/NI and the EU behind the scenes.

Care to explain what these agendas are?

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

They would impoverish the people of this island if they thought it would mean unification.

Would they?

Well, now the UK government gets to impoverish the part of Ireland under their jurisdiction because of their idiocy.

Race ya!

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

They would impoverish the people of this island if they thought it would mean unification.

how can you say that when there hasnt even been a nationwide discussion yet? Pure simplistic scaremongering.

Right now we dont know what a UI will entail or how it will be financed. stop putting the cart before the horse, just because it suits your naive viewpoint

JupiterKid

It is, of course, a real irony that one of the most likely outcomes of Brexit, a move with the explicit purpose of taking the UK out of Europe to “take back” their soveirgnty is that the prospects for a united Ireland have never been as close as they are currently.

For me - as an Irishman born in Belfast in 1975 to Catholic parents (with very mixed ancestry on my father's side of the family) and who moved to Dublin as a baby as Northern Ireland was tearing itself apart as a result of the unresolved issues that remained after the original partition of Ireland - it is about the internal conflict between heart and head.

In my heart I would like to see a united Ireland one day, but in my head the practicalities and challenges of the reunification of two parts of this island which have now been separately governed for a century, are immense. Remember also that a very sizable number of people in the Republic do not want Northern Ireland with all its attendant problems and a unionist - and for sure a loyalist - populace in the North unwilling to even entertain the idea, at least in public.

My family moved from Belfast to Dublin to escape the violence and chaos engulfing the North, and I and the vast majority of people on the entire island of Ireland never want to see a return to the violence - no reunification “ideal” is worth bloodshed and the loss of life. Then there is the huge headache of transitioning Northern Ireland over to the systems of the Republic and the sheer cost of the whole project. Germany is a very salutary example of how the reunification of a country involves massive challenges and costs - many of which are unforeseen.

There is little doubt that if reunification was to occur, the concept of “parity of esteem” as espoused in the Good Friday Agreement would have to be reflected in the setting up of a semi-devolved provincial administration for NI and the recognition of the unionist traditions and perspectives under the auspices of a new constitution that would have to be drawn up.

It is also important to consider the serious structural difficulties with the economy of Northern Ireland, propped up as it is by the UK exchequer, massive State spending and a disproportionately large public sector and a private sector very dependent of public sector contracts and business. Living standards in the Republic, for nearly the entirely of the 20th century, well behind that of the (then) more developed NI, surpassed the North around 2000 and are now considerably ahead in all measures.

In my own dealings and in conversations with my wider family and friends, many of whom are based in Northern Ireland, there are many Northerners willing to explore reasonable options going forward but there are also many who are bitterly entrenched in their views and - sadly their prejudices and hatreds. I have relatives and friends from both sides of the “divide” and I can tell you I have heard just as much intolerant, no-concession, hardened views from some of the more republican-leaning members of my extended family as I have from those with a staunchly unionist perspective.

An entire generation of Northerners have grown up without the direct experience of the Troubles, and that is a wonderful thing, but they may be significantly more ambivalent to the cause of a united Ireland than their parents or grandparents. I certainly would like to see a huge drive up North towards integrated education - enforced if necessary - as I believe the segregated education system by religion has been a key factor in maintaining the divide in NI.

One thing is for sure - the debate on a united Ireland has been made more prominent by Brexit and no one can tell at this point what direction it will take.

BonnieSituation

Thanks JK for that post.

The only thing I'll query is this "devolved administration". From my POV that continues to 'other' the NE of the country when a UI is a chance to integrate and meld together and promote similarities amongst the two prominent cultures on the island rather than continuing the faux-division as a sop to the sensibilities of Unionists, who continue to talk about parity of esteem but as we can see from the AIA to the GFA to the ILA to the NI Protocol they have next to no interest in same.

A vaguely-autonomous fiefdom is hardly something we would want to have within our borders after 100 years of failure of a similar "solution".

I just fear that accommodations like this further undermine the whole point of a shared future and will be just the next line in the sand for belligerent unionism to hold their inch upon.

A UI is an opportunity for renewal, repeating the mistakes of the past and othering our fellow Irishman is hardly the way forward.

Unionist culture and traditions are Irish cultures and traditions and will no doubt be accommodated in the new State. Just because the Craig decided to go down the road of apartheid doesn't mean there is revenge to be exacted.

And let's be frank, a UI only comes about when the middle ground vote for it.

Parity of esteem and consent of the majority is all important I thought?

blanch152

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Thanks JK for that post.

The only thing I'll query is this "devolved administration". From my POV that continues to 'other' the NE of the country when a UI is a chance to integrate and meld together and promote similarities amongst the two prominent cultures on the island rather than continuing the faux-division as a sop to the sensibilities of Unionists, who continue to talk about parity of esteem but as we can see from the AIA to the GFA to the ILA to the NI Protocol they have next to no interest in same.

A vaguely-autonomous fiefdom is hardly something we would want to have within our borders after 100 years of failure of a similar "solution".

I just fear that accommodations like this further undermine the whole point of a shared future and will be just the next line in the sand for belligerent unionism to hold their inch upon.

A UI is an opportunity for renewal, repeating the mistakes of the past and othering our fellow Irishman is hardly the way forward.

Unionist culture and traditions are Irish cultures and traditions and will no doubt be accommodated in the new State. Just because the Craig decided to go down the road of apartheid doesn't mean there is revenge to be exacted.

And let's be frank, a UI only comes about when the middle ground vote for it.

Parity of esteem and consent of the majority is all important I thought?

The denigration of unionist culture continues with the reference to the faux-division.

Unionist culture and traditions are British cultures and traditions, whether Irish republicans like that or not. They just do not see themselves as Irish.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

NI has 'struggled' for most of it's 100 years Rob. Hadn't you noticed?

The UK is over a barrel here. Once again, spouting rhetoric and raising the bully boys has failed for them. Their demands repudiated by us in the EU and there is nothing they can do but keep raising the temperature.

Francie,although we seldom agree,you do come out with some crackers occasionally.I have`nt heard the one about the UK being over a barrel since the halcyon days when some posters here thought the UK`s capitulation was imminent. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie,although we seldom agree,you do come out with some crackers occasionally.I have`nt heard the one about the UK being over a barrel since the halcyon days when some posters here thought the UK`s capitulation was imminent. :rolleyes:

Is this where you pretend they didn't ?

Carry on, not going to even try and show you the capitulation that happened over 4 years that now has them coming back looking for mercy basically because they wereso anxious to get a deal they didn't look at the detail.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie,although we seldom agree,you do come out with some crackers occasionally.I have`nt heard the one about the UK being over a barrel since the halcyon days when some posters here thought the UK`s capitulation was imminent. :rolleyes:

Eh, have you been under a rock?

Have you not being paying attention the last 6 weeks/5 years?

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

The denigration of unionist culture continues with the reference to the faux-division.

Explain how it's a denigration of Unionist culture to comment on the fact that carving out a devolved area in a UI is a bit daft?

Is Unionist culture predicated on ruling over a wee plot?

Unionist culture and traditions are British cultures and traditions, whether Irish republicans like that or not. They just do not see themselves as Irish.

Grand yeah. :rolleyes:

Go wan and miss the point entirely.

Reckon that unionists are gonna be treated as second class citizens in a UI?

Exactly.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The denigration of unionist culture continues with the reference to the faux-division.

Unionist culture and traditions are British cultures and traditions, whether Irish republicans like that or not. They just do not see themselves as Irish.

The vast majority of British don't recognise Unionism as part of their culture, they have no understanding of it.
Unionism is part of Irish culture, it is unique to this island.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Eh, have you been under a rock?

Have you not being paying attention the last 6 weeks/5 years?

Bonnie,the UK spread eagled over a barrel about to beg for mercy was a popular trope until recently.Did`nt happen in the end.As Francie said the UK is out,lets all move on even if we disagree on NI.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The vast majority of British don't recognise Unionism as part of their culture, they have no understanding of it.
Unionism is part of Irish culture, it is unique to this island.

Francie,you really need to do some research before you post claims like that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unionism_in_the_United_Kingdom

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie,you really need to do some research before you post claims like that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unionism_in_the_United_Kingdom

Rob, very few people in Britain understand Irish Unionists. It is foreign to them.

'Unionism' is not a unique identifier...various unionist miovements exist around the world, we know this.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Bonnie,the UK spread eagled over a barrel about to beg for mercy was a popular trope until recently.Did`nt happen in the end.As Francie said the UK is out,lets all move on even if we disagree on NI.

I don't understand this post at all.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie,you really need to do some research before you post claims like that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unionism_in_the_United_Kingdom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Rob, very few people in Britain understand Irish Unionists. It is foreign to them.

'Unionism' is not a unique identifier...various unionist miovements exist around the world, we know this.

I like the idea of an Englishman trying to educate an Ulsterman, on Irish Unionism.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I like the idea of an Englishman trying to educate an Ulsterman, on Irish Unionism.

Unionism is`nt just in Ireland Bonnie,it`s UK wide and is`nt considered controversial.

ittakestwo

RobMc59 wrote: »

You are correct Blanch but the majority of republican posters here would rather see NI struggling as that suits their agenda. I also agree that in reality,there will be dialogue between the UK/NI and the EU behind the scenes.

Are you for real. Brexit was not a republican brainwave, nor was the NI protocol. In case you had forgotten the only party in NI who advocated both of them was the DUP.

And the NI protocol means NI is the only place in the UK that has unrestricted exports to the UK and EU. But as it also means divergence of NI from the rest of the UK it is the agenda of unionist to destroy the NI protocol despite it may having some economic advantages to NI.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Unionism is`nt just in Ireland Bonnie,it`s UK wide and is`nt considered controversial.

Rob..the majority od Britain has no idea what Irish Unionism is about. Stop the con.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Rob..the majority od Britain has no idea what Irish Unionism is about. Stop the con.

I posted a link to British Unionism.I did`nt distinguish.Stop twisting like a Lough Foyle eel. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I posted a link to British Unionism.I did`nt distinguish.Stop twisting like a Lough Foyle eel. :rolleyes:

The UK is a union...we know this. You are running away Rob.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The UK is a union...we know this. You are running away Rob.

So why single out Irish Unionism?

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

So why single out Irish Unionism?

Because it is unique. It's peculiar to this island mostly. It is therefore part of Irish culture, not Britain's.

maccored

RobMc59 wrote: »

So why single out Irish Unionism?

because its like the mad cousin the rest of uk unionism doesnt talk about

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because it is unique. It's peculiar to this island mostly. It is therefore part of Irish culture, not Britain's.

Francie,you`re digging a very big hole for yourself here.Are you actually suggesting the British are`nt Unionists?

maccored

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie,you`re digging a very big hole for yourself here.Are you actually suggesting the British are`nt Unionists?

the only hole francie could fall into is the one you've been digging

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie,you`re digging a very big hole for yourself here.Are you actually suggesting the British are`nt Unionists?

Who said that Rob?

Take those who want Scottish and Welsh and English Independence and Unionism is not a groupthink in the UK at all.

Irish unionism imbued with religious fundamentalism and Orangism is unique to these shores.

maccored

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who said that Rob?

Take those who want Scottish and Welsh and English Independence and Unionism is not a groupthink in the UK at all.

Irish unionism imbued with religious fundamentalism and Orangism is unique to these shores.

plus irish unionisn has a one word dictionary - 'NEVER!'