Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Opinion polls far in advance of a referendum aren’t to be trusted, we all know that. No doubt the picture would only become clear once the actual campaign began. How people currently vote in elections is at least as Indicative as opinion polls.
Would imagine nationalists would use the economy to try and convince moderate unionists. The potential danger of loyalist terrorists is probably the only argument unionism has to convince moderate nationalists. Might it be enough?

This is all fine if you ignore facts as they would ruin your story.

If loyalist terrorists are the only argument, and you say elections are a good indicator, how come that indicator points to a healthy majority opposed to UI while loyalists haven’t attacked a catholic this century - that I am aware of.

Remember that 75% of alliance voters have declared they are opposed to a UI.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

As for Sinn Fein. We’ve been told for years about their wonderful new leadership, and now just take a wee look at their disgraceful behaviour - here is examples just in last days of behaviour of MLAs and MPs

O’Neill - completely disobeying rules around covid. Told the other day by a court she will be in contempt if she does accept pensions for victims ruling.
Has she? Is it not Sinn Fein who do not accept the arrangement of pensions as it is not as agreed in the GFA?

Murphy - refusing to condemn the torture and murder of young Paul Quinn by a group of ira men because he had fallen out with one of their sons.

He wasn't asked to do that. He was asked to say Paul Quinn was not involved in criminal activity, which he did and he apologised to the Quinn family.

He [Murphy] said: “I have consistently and unreservedly condemned the murder of Paul Quinn,” he said.
“Those who murdered him are criminals and need to be brought to justice.
“I repeat my call on anyone with any information on his murder to bring it to the Gardai or the PSNI.
“I very much regret comments I made in the aftermath of Paul’s murder which have added to the grief felt by the Quinn family.
“I apologise for those remarks and I unreservedly withdraw them.

Anderson - referring to the victims of her and the ira , members of the british dirty war etc
That was wrong. But she has withdrawn it and apologised.

Hazard - refusing to condemn the murder of an innocent civilian causing the orphaning of an only child and constituent of his.
The IRA claim that he was involved in security forces (checking at roadblocks with British Security forces. He was also a former B Special, so imagine he wouldn't have been too popular in an nationalist area). Maybe a Truth and Reconciliation forum would sort out and give comfort to a lot of people who suffered during the troubles.

I could go on and on.
We know you can. Would you support a Truth and Reconciliation forum DC?

Lucy8080

Ireland ..democratically, voted itself out of the Empire. That vote was ignored.Ireland was divided.

All that followed is a result of the frustration of ignoring a democratic vote. I have no problem with a democrat.

B.T.W. , why do the D.U. P. claim to be a democratic party whilst also claiming allegiance to an unelected head of state?

It makes no sense.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

O’Neill - completely disobeying rules around covid. Told the other day by a court she will be in contempt if she does accept pensions for victims ruling.
Has she? Is it not Sinn Fein who do not accept the arrangement of pensions as it is not as agreed in the GFA?

Murphy - refusing to condemn the torture and murder of young Paul Quinn by a group of ira men because he had fallen out with one of their sons.

He wasn't asked to do that. He was asked to say Paul Quinn was not involved in criminal activity, which he did and he apologised to the Quinn family.




Anderson - referring to the victims of her and the ira , members of the british dirty war etc
That was wrong. But she has withdrawn it and apologised.

Hazard - refusing to condemn the murder of an innocent civilian causing the orphaning of an only child and constituent of his.
The IRA claim that he was involved in security forces (checking at roadblocks with British Security forces. He was also a former B Special, so imagine he wouldn't have been too popular in an nationalist area). Maybe a Truth and Reconciliation forum would sort out and give comfort to a lot of people who suffered during the troubles.

I could go on and on.
We know you can. Would you support a Truth and Reconciliation forum DC?

Jm08. You are correct. I was mistaken on Murphy. Apologies. You are right, A condemnation was dragged out of him some time later.
What I should have said is that he called Paul Quinn a criminal to give cover to the murder and he refuses to withdraw that even though he knows the reason for the ira murder and he knows the Quinn family desperately want him to clarify his statement.

You point about the Heenan murder is completely wrong and you are doing exactly what Murphy done - trying to soften a horrendous murder. He had a spell in the b specials in the 60s before the troubles kicked off. He was very well liked by his nationalist neighbours (except those that set him up for assassination).
But the real lie to your analysis is given by the Ira themselves - as the claimed it was mistaken identity.

downcow

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Ireland ..democratically, voted itself out of the Empire. That vote was ignored.Ireland was divided.

All that followed is a result of the frustration of ignoring a democratic vote. I have no problem with a democrat.

B.T.W. , why do the D.U. P. claim to be a democratic party whilst also claiming allegiance to an unelected head of state?

It makes no sense.

Lucy, as I have learned from my learned friends on here over the last few days, the partition of Ireland was entirely democratic. Therefore given you support for democracy you will support it from henceforth until such time as NI & ROI vote otherwise?

This might help you understand how democracy works in my country and how the dup can be regarded as democratic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_United_Kingdom

Now could you help me understand how Sinn Fein can be regarded as democratic when the likes of Storey makes the decisions. And don’t take it from me, the recent enquiry into RHI said that the Sinn Fein Finance Minister in the Executive was instructed what to do by unknown unelected persons

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This might help you understand how democracy works in my country and how the dup can be regarded as democratic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_United_Kingdom

For goodness sake...are you ever going to take some responsibility for your own community?
Do you really think people are that stupid?

Pol Pot 'can be regarded as democratic' if you avert your eyes enough and keep pointing at themuns.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Jm08. You are correct. I was mistaken on Murphy. Apologies. You are right, A condemnation was dragged out of him some time later.
What I should have said is that he called Paul Quinn a criminal to give cover to the murder and he refuses to withdraw that even though he knows the reason for the ira murder and he knows the Quinn family desperately want him to clarify his statement.

He [Murphy] said: “I have consistently and unreservedly condemned the murder of Paul Quinn,” he said.
“Those who murdered him are criminals and need to be brought to justice.
“I repeat my call on anyone with any information on his murder to bring it to the Gardai or the PSNI.
“I very much regret comments I made in the aftermath of Paul’s murder which have added to the grief felt by the Quinn family.
“I apologise for those remarks and I unreservedly withdraw them.

You point about the Heenan murder is completely wrong and you are doing exactly what Murphy done - trying to soften a horrendous murder. He had a spell in the b specials in the 60s before the troubles kicked off. He was very well liked by his nationalist neighbours (except those that set him up for assassination).
But the real lie to your analysis is given by the Ira themselves - as the claimed it was mistaken identity.

So, he was a member of the B Specials who were reviled by catholics in NI?

"My father was a civilian, he hadn't been in the B Specials for 15 years*. He was an Orangeman and we lived in one of the most isolated and rural parts of Northern Ireland.
"The IRA's South Down command took responsibility for my father's murder and tried to justify it by saying he was an RUC reservist**, which he never was."

*Since he was killed in 1985, that means he was a member of the B Specials until they were disbanded.

**So the IRA were not saying that it was mistaken identity according to the victim's son. They claimed that he was an RUC reservist (and elsewhere I've read that he was at roadblocks).
Why do you feel the need to make stuff up when what you claim is easily checked?
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ira-victims-son-hits-out-after-beeb-backs-journalists-comment-35593619.html

Now, can you answer my question about whether you would support a Truth and Reconcilliation Forum? And if not, why not?

Lucy8080

downcow wrote: »

Lucy, as I have learned from my learned friends on here over the last few days, the partition of Ireland was entirely democratic. Therefore given you support for democracy you will support it from henceforth until such time as NI & ROI vote otherwise?

This might help you understand how democracy works in my country and how the dup can be regarded as democratic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_United_Kingdom

Now could you help me understand how Sinn Fein can be regarded as democratic when the likes of Storey makes the decisions. And don’t take it from me, the recent enquiry into RHI said that the Sinn Fein Finance Minister in the Executive was instructed what to do by unknown unelected persons

It was not a democratic partition! Please read that gently rather than an oppositional position.

Unionist sentiment in 1912 was willing to turn their guns (German guns b.t.w.) on British forces because of their fear of home rule.

The Democratic vote in Ireland was subverted by the threat of "British Might" turning their guns against a population who could not by force of arms alleviate such a threat.Partition was the result.

If you want to call out Sinn Fein ,I won't argue with you. I am not here to defend them.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Lucy, as I have learned from my learned friends on here over the last few days, the partition of Ireland was entirely democratic. Therefore given you support for democracy you will support it from henceforth until such time as NI & ROI vote otherwise?

Read up on what is known as the ''Curragh Mutiny'' of 1914.

Although the Cabinet issued a document claiming that the issue had been a misunderstanding, Secretary of State for War J. E. B. Seely and Chief of the General Staff (CIGS) Field Marshall Sir John French were forced to resign after amending it to promise that the British Army would not be used against the Ulster loyalists.
The event contributed both to unionist confidence and to the growing Irish separatist movement, convincing Irish nationalists that they could not expect support from the British Army in Ireland. In turn, this renewed nationalist support for paramilitary forces. The Home Rule Bill was passed but postponed, and the growing fear of civil war in Ireland led to the British government considering some form of partition of Ireland instead, which eventually took place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curragh_incident


The British Gov. decided on partitition because the British Army threatened to mutiny. Nothing democratic about that.

timthumbni

downcow wrote: »

You said it, not me.

Actually I agree with your statement on the dup. But thankfully Sinn Fein are more than counterbalancing that

Anderson - referring to the victims of her and the ira , members of the british dirty war etc
n.

I said a while back that she was a pr disaster for SF. You can almost see the bitterness dripping off her. Makes a holy show of herself regularly. She had to back peddle quickly this time as her outburst isn’t good for the sF pr department in the republic. Seems to see anyone not on the republican side as part of the British “war machine”.

The type that would be seen wearing a jimmy sands/ 32 county proclaimation gaa shirt to the local shop. Making a laughing stock of themselves with regularity. You know the embarrassing uncle at a wedding. She is the embarrassing aunt. A holy show.

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

I said a while back that she was a pr disaster for SF. You can almost see the bitterness dripping off her. Makes a holy show of herself regularly. She had to back peddle quickly this time as her outburst isn’t good for the sF pr department in the republic. Seems to see anyone not on the republican side as part of the British “war machine”.

The type that would be seen wearing a jimmy sands/ 32 county proclaimation gaa shirt to the local shop. Making a laughing stock of themselves with regularity. You know the embarrassing uncle at a wedding. She is the embarrassing aunt. A holy show.

I fully agree that she is and has been an embarrassment...but there isn't a party on these islands that doesn't have similar sadly.

timthumbni

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I fully agree that she is and has been an embarrassment...but there isn't a party on these islands that doesn't have similar sadly.

Well to be accurate, there are plenty of politicians of all parties who are tools. However few others aside from sf would have an issue with their party members seemingly referring to those maimed by terrorists as part of the British war machine. At least we know that when she refers to brits out you can take it she is referring to unionists/Protestants in NI.

The female equivalent of that wee Tyrone specimen mcilduff.

Sunny Disposition

downcow wrote: »

This is all fine if you ignore facts as they would ruin your story.

If loyalist terrorists are the only argument, and you say elections are a good indicator, how come that indicator points to a healthy majority opposed to UI while loyalists haven’t attacked a catholic this century - that I am aware of.

Remember that 75% of alliance voters have declared they are opposed to a UI.

What are the arguments so, if not fear of loyalist backlash? It’s pretty clear the partition project has been an economic failure and the six counties are extremely divided, far more so than Britain or the Republic of Ireland.

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

Well to be accurate, there are plenty of politicians of all parties who are tools. However few others aside from sf would have an issue with their party members seemingly referring to those maimed by terrorists as part of the British war machine. At least we know that when she refers to brits out you can take it she is referring to unionists/Protestants in NI.

The female equivalent of that wee Tyrone specimen mcilduff.

Do you understand the use of the words 'mainly for....'

She tweeted that the pension fund would be mainly for those involved in Britain's dirty war and in collusion.


I am not defending it, it was rash and intemperate and wrong. Don't try to make it worse than it was though.

In terms of embarrassing party members who allow their bias to get the better of them in tweets, off the cuff remarks and in proposing embarrassing policy from time to time, there are plenty of examples across politics.

We could be naming them all day...so let's not go there.

Zebra3

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

What are the arguments so, if not fear of loyalist backlash? It’s pretty clear the partition project has been an economic failure and the six counties are extremely divided, far more so than Britain or the Republic of Ireland.

There's none really.

Just diversionary stuff about someone in SF.

I mean we could be here all day talking about the stuff spouted by DUPers. Or their actions.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

He [Murphy] said: “I have consistently and unreservedly condemned the murder of Paul Quinn,” he said.
“Those who murdered him are criminals and need to be brought to justice.
“I repeat my call on anyone with any information on his murder to bring it to the Gardai or the PSNI.
“I very much regret comments I made in the aftermath of Paul’s murder which have added to the grief felt by the Quinn family.
“I apologise for those remarks and I unreservedly withdraw them.



So, he was a member of the B Specials who were reviled by catholics in NI?

"My father was a civilian, he hadn't been in the B Specials for 15 years*. He was an Orangeman and we lived in one of the most isolated and rural parts of Northern Ireland.
"The IRA's South Down command took responsibility for my father's murder and tried to justify it by saying he was an RUC reservist**, which he never was."

*Since he was killed in 1985, that means he was a member of the B Specials until they were disbanded.

**So the IRA were not saying that it was mistaken identity according to the victim's son. They claimed that he was an RUC reservist (and elsewhere I've read that he was at roadblocks).
Why do you feel the need to make stuff up when what you claim is easily checked?
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ira-victims-son-hits-out-after-beeb-backs-journalists-comment-35593619.html

Now, can you answer my question about whether you would support a Truth and Reconcilliation Forum? And if not, why not?

Disgusting bit of justification for the ira sectarian murder.
Yes the Ira said he was a reservist. They later then said it was mistaken identity.
Instead of riddles. Why don’t you just tell us straight why you think the ira killed him.
I am telling you what I know to be the truth. He was a rural Protestant with farmland and a very easy target.
No you have the balls to tells us why you think rather than giving us a range of possibilities?????
I can’t get your link to open on my phone but I’m sure it’s groundbreaking.

I know this family well. Decent honest people. You couldn’t lace their boots.

And your deflection is good but the issue was that the local sf MP refuses to say the killing should not have happened. Nice guy to have as MP!

downcow

Lucy8080 wrote: »

It was not a democratic partition! Please read that gently rather than an oppositional position.

Unionist sentiment in 1912 was willing to turn their guns (German guns b.t.w.) on British forces because of their fear of home rule.

The Democratic vote in Ireland was subverted by the threat of "British Might" turning their guns against a population who could not by force of arms alleviate such a threat.Partition was the result.

If you want to call out Sinn Fein ,I won't argue with you. I am not here to defend them.

I’m not clear Lucy. Your post says it wasn’t democratic vote and next para says it was a democratic vote?

downcow

timthumbni wrote: »

I said a while back that she was a pr disaster for SF. You can almost see the bitterness dripping off her. Makes a holy show of herself regularly. She had to back peddle quickly this time as her outburst isn’t good for the sF pr department in the republic. Seems to see anyone not on the republican side as part of the British “war machine”.

The type that would be seen wearing a jimmy sands/ 32 county proclaimation gaa shirt to the local shop. Making a laughing stock of themselves with regularity. You know the embarrassing uncle at a wedding. She is the embarrassing aunt. A holy show.

Yeah. And this is the exciting new sf leadership they told us about after gfa 20 years ago.

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

What are the arguments so, if not fear of loyalist backlash? It’s pretty clear the partition project has been an economic failure and the six counties are extremely divided, far more so than Britain or the Republic of Ireland.

Keep telling yourself it’s a failure if that makes you feel good. I don’t hear any ni folk saying it’s a failure and I’d rather join with the ROI system which is so sectarian and partisan that it doesn’t even know it is - which is what is really worrying

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Keep telling yourself it’s a failure if that makes you feel good. I don’t hear any ni folk saying it’s a failure and I’d rather join with the ROI system which is so sectarian and partisan that it doesn’t even know it is - which is what is really worrying

You have YET to outline how it has succeeded.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Disgusting bit of justification for the ira sectarian murder.
Yes the Ira said he was a reservist. They later then said it was mistaken identity.
Instead of riddles. Why don’t you just tell us straight why you think the ira killed him.
I am telling you what I know to be the truth. He was a rural Protestant with farmland and a very easy target.
No you have the balls to tells us why you think rather than giving us a range of possibilities?????
I can’t get your link to open on my phone but I’m sure it’s groundbreaking.

The link quotes the victim's son saying:

"My father was a civilian, he hadn't been in the B Specials for 15 years. He was an Orangeman and we lived in one of the most isolated and rural parts of Northern Ireland.
"The IRA's South Down command took responsibility for my father's murder and tried to justify it by saying he was an RUC reservist, which he never was."

You would think his son would have known that they claimed it was mistaken identity in 2017. Have you a link to where they say it was please.

I know this family well. Decent honest people. You couldn’t lace their boots.

And I have provided you with a quote from the son of the victim.

And your deflection is good but the issue was that the local sf MP refuses to say the killing should not have happened. Nice guy to have as MP!

Your trying to dance on the head of a pin with these observations.

Facts are that the Quinn family are demanding that Conor Murphy goes on TV and says that their son wasn't a criminal. The people who they need to go on national tv are the PSNI who actually know whether he was or not.

jm08

timthumbni wrote: »

Well to be accurate, there are plenty of politicians of all parties who are tools. However few others aside from sf would have an issue with their party members seemingly referring to those maimed by terrorists as part of the British war machine. At least we know that when she refers to brits out you can take it she is referring to unionists/Protestants in NI.

The female equivalent of that wee Tyrone specimen mcilduff.

''Brits out'' always meant British State/British Army - i.e., British claim to Ireland. Its only in recent year NI unionists even considered themselves 'British'. Up to that they thought of themselves as Irish unionists, Ulster Scots, Ulstermen. Here in the south, the protestant establishment were referred to as Anglo-Irish, but they were always considered to be Irish.

Zebra3

As loyalist terrorists said "we know the wallpaper in unionist politicians' homes".

Will we spend all day going through their links and demanding apologies?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

The link quotes the victim's son saying:
You would think his son would have known that they claimed it was mistaken identity in 2017. Have you a link to where they say it was.

How about having the balls to answer the question.????
Why do you think the ira murdered him. ?????

Here’s a clip from when it happened
https://mobile.twitter.com/onthisdaypira/status/991912952134586368?lang=en

And here is a very brave son 37 years later
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/ira-victims-son-asks-sinn-fein-mp-why-wont-you-condemn-my-dads-murder-978434%3famp

Ps. If I am wrong about ira claiming it as mistaken identity then I will have the balls to admit it. You should grow a set

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

''Brits out'' always meant British State/British Army - i.e., British claim to Ireland. Its only in recent year NI unionists even considered themselves 'British'. Up to that they thought of themselves as Irish unionists, Ulster Scots, Ulstermen. Here in the south, the protestant establishment were referred to as Anglo-Irish, but they were always considered to be Irish.

So why were all the attacks (practically) directed at Protestant homes and businesses???
Why did they drive past numerous hotels that might have Catholics in them to arrive at La Mon where they knew they would only kill Protestants.
Wise up jm08. Your nonsense doesn’t bear scrutiny. Your friends put a UI back generations

jm08

downcow wrote: »

How about having the balls to answer the question.????
Why do you think the ira murdered him. ?????

Because he had been a member of the B Specials which was disbanded. The PIRA also say that he was at checkpoints so was part of the security forces.

Here’s a clip from when it happened
https://mobile.twitter.com/onthisdaypira/status/991912952134586368?lang=en

And? Its a news report.

And here is a very brave son 37 years later
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/ira-victims-son-asks-sinn-fein-mp-why-wont-you-condemn-my-dads-murder-978434%3famp

Because he was a member of the British Security Forces (B Specials which was disbanded), and he was seen to be involved at British security checkpoints.

Ps. If I am wrong about ira claiming it as mistaken identity then I will have the halls to admit it.

So, show your evidence that the PIRA said it was mistaken identity.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Because he had been a member of the B Specials which was disbanded. The PIRA also say that he was at checkpoints so was part of the security forces.





And? Its a news report.




Because he was a member of the British Security Forces (B Specials which was disbanded), and he was seen to be involved at British security checkpoints.





So, show your evidence that the PIRA said it was mistaken identity.

I have told you if I can’t evidence it I will retract it. I have balls.

Now do you think that was a reasonable reason to murder a man? He was left the security forces 15 years.
The check point stuff is just nonsense and now that you are requesting evidence, I assume you can share the link where the ira said he was manning checkpoints (not that that is of any credibility)

jm08

downcow wrote: »

So why were all the attacks (practically) directed at Protestant homes and businesses???

Do you understand why they targetted the London Stock Exchange? If you do, then you will understand why they targetted businesses.



Were Protestant homes targetted? Examples please?

Why did they drive past numerous hotels that might have Catholics in them to arrive at La Mon where they knew they would only kill Protestants.

According to Wiki, they were targetting La Mon because it was meant to be having an RUC meeting in it. They did issue warnings about the bombs by the way.

Wise up jm08. Your nonsense doesn’t bear scrutiny. Your friends put a UI back generations

I've told you often enough, I'm not particularly fussed about a UI. What I am fussed about is that Irish people have been very poorly treated by a rotten Sectarian establishment in NI.

timthumbni

jm08 wrote: »

''Brits out'' always meant British State/British Army - i.e., British claim to Ireland. Its only in recent year NI unionists even considered themselves 'British'. Up to that they thought of themselves as Irish unionists, Ulster Scots, Ulstermen. Here in the south, the protestant establishment were referred to as Anglo-Irish, but they were always considered to be Irish.

Hmmmm. So if I said a slogan like “Irish out “ you would be fine with that. Sure I only mean the Ira heads. A disgusting slogan. A bit like “get da england out of da Ireland”

Pathetic....

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I have told you if I can’t evidence it I will retract it. I have balls.

OK, so retract (from Armagh Concerned British Citizens) https://www.facebook.com/ARMAGHCBC/posts/3-may-1985-william-heenan-52-year-old-protestant-civilian-a-widower-with-1-child/620376618054982/

The IRA claimed that Mr Heenan was an RUC reservist. In an IRA statement, they said: "he had been seen regularly at roadblocks and local people are incredulous at the attempt to deny his involvement".

The security forces denied Mr Heenan was a member of the RUC and neighbours said his only connection was that he had been a former member of the B Specials 20 years earlier.

Now do you think that was a reasonable reason to murder a man? He was left the security forces 15 years.
The check point stuff is just nonsense and now that you are requesting evidence, I assume you can share the link where the ira said he was manning checkpoints (not that that is of any credibility)

I'm not judge or jury. I don't know if he was an RUC reservist or not.

Truth and Reconcilliation might answer a lot of these questions, don't you think?

Would you support a Truth and Reconciliation Forum, DC'' and if not, why not?


PS - He left the B Specials when they were disbanded and absorbed into UDR. He didn't voluntarily resign from them.