Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

NI, the 'country' you want to celebrate, is nowhere near 15th. It ranks around 44th on the UN Human Development Index.

44th is ok to. Actually it’s a bit high. I despise these countries that are all about the money and how they can get their feet on the necks of developing countries. You are welcome to your number 3 position out of 200. I’d be ashamed.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

44th is ok to. Actually it’s a bit high. I dispose these countries that are all about the money and how they can get their feet on the necks of developing countries. You are welcome to your number 3 position out of 200. I’d be ashamed.

:eek:

Sunny Disposition

downcow wrote: »

Sunny. I think you might be being genuine. So here’s the problem. There are a few posters on here who love to spend their time undermining ni.
We could play this game if it had rules. It would not matter what was brought forward as success they would say that’s not a measure of success but they won’t tell us what the measure is.
I love ni, love living in ni, everyone I know feels the same, nationalist and unionist. Yes we have different aspirations but we are doing ok. Like every country there are people going through tough times how are not doing ok. How do you measure all that.
I just know there is nowhere else on this planet I would rather be

I kind of get that, of course you have a strong affinity and loyalty to NI. But looking beyond your fondness for it, can it be judged a success? It’s hard to see it as such when it is so divided and the economy lags the south and the rest of the UK. But I’m guessing you genuinely feel it is a success?

I think unionism needs to start engaging with this question very soon for its own sake, and setting
out some way that the divisions in NI can be tackled, or a UI will become inevitable.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I think you are talking about the landed gentry. Not the Ulster Scots who were bottom of the pile

There were no Ulster-Scots in the Republic. Working class prods had the pick of all the jobs as they were owned by protestants. Take for example, Guinness:

The brewery in the heart of Dublin's St James's Gate was a byword for sectarianism in the capital long after Independence. It had no qualms about selling drink to Catholics but it did everything it could to avoid employing them until the 1960s.
While there are many admirable aspects to the paternalistic capitalism practised by the Guinness family (and many other European breweries) the blatant discrimination continued far longer than it should have.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/thomas-molloy/forget-the-guinness-publicity-shots-drinks-giant-diageo-doesnt-need-us-29349481.html


DC, do you realise that Daniel O'Connell championed the Emancipation of Presbyterians and Jews (not to mention the abolition of slavery)!

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Are you that precious?

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Do you have any issue with your neighbours from that substantial minority that wish NI did not exist? Or are you ignoring them as is your wont?

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Any chance you can answer if you think Northern Ireland has been a success? And if you think it has been a success, can you give us some examples?

A great success. If you guys hadn’t have partitioned and stayed with us in UK you might have enjoyed it also.
My memory as a teenager of visiting the south was telephones that wouldn’t work, grass growing in the middle of the road and beggars all over the place. Tough time’s

jm08

downcow wrote: »

15th sounds like success to me

It is very good. Not as good as being ranked No. 3 though. Also worth mentioning that in an OECD report on health, Ireland came out as being better than the UK (but still way behind most countries in Europe).


Its just really strange to think that British people think the NHS is the best in the world because someone has told them it is!

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We have jurisdiction over NI, by dint of the GFA. An agreement that has seen the quality of life for ALL the people improve. Unionists cannot enforce their religiously fundamentalist views and cultural exclusionary ideals on others anymore.

Haha. That’s what Martin and Gerry told you to get you on board. Take responsibility and examine gfa yourself and show me where it says you have jurisdiction over ni.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Sunny. I think you might be being genuine.

The classic Downcow plámás of a new poster.

So here’s the problem. There are a few posters on here who love to spend their time undermining ni.

The classic downcow "others are unreasonable, not I" excuse.

For the record DC, no one seeks to undermine NI, we seek to undermine disingenuous and beligerent unionist and Partitionist posters, ie. You.

We could play this game if it had rules.

Another classic. You're really going for the greatest hits. You love to highlight how you "being reasonable" and if other posters "were clearer" you would have no issue answering their questions; but as it stands you're not really in a position to do so.

It would not matter what was brought forward as success they would say that’s not a measure of success but they won’t tell us what the measure is.

Again, this is another DC trope were he tries to show how others wouldn't agree with his assertions so therefore he will not kowtow to them and will not answer their queries, though, he may answer the queries if they ask different questions that are slightly easier for him to weasel out of. Classic DC.

I love ni, love living in ni, everyone I know feels the same, nationalist and unionist. Yes we have different aspirations but we are doing ok.

And? We knew this. This is another one you like to show that in fact, you have been reasonable all along and in fact there are.others like me across the political spectrum, if only the mean posters on here would let me speak!!!

Like every country there are people going through tough times how are not doing ok. How do you measure all that.

We then get handed a statement of such breadth and irrelevance to the question at hand that it is neither reasonable nor simple to shoehorn into the original question that has remained unanswered for the last few hours. However, the phrasing of this question is such that it looks like he may have answered it and will try and skulk out of the original query.

It hasn't answered it.

just know there is nowhere else on this planet I would rather be

Cool, though this is similar in its aim as the passage above.

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I have to say, that's an impressive game of downcow bingo there. But anyway...

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Do you think Northern Ireland has been a success over the last century and if so, can you point to some examples of things that led you to that conclusion?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why are you falling into his whataboutery trap?

He's refusing to answer a simple question.

You're better off just waiting for an answer to that tbh. Everything else we have rehashed before on several threads.

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Downcow, do you think Northern Ireland has been a failure? And if not, can you point to examples that show we are wrong in our assumption that it has been.

Stop fighting among yourselves guys. I sense a feud coming on

FrancieBrady

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I kind of get that, of course you have a strong affinity and loyalty to NI. But looking beyond your fondness for it, can it be judged a success? It’s hard to see it as such when it is so divided and the economy lags the south and the rest of the UK. But I’m guessing you genuinely feel it is a success?

I think unionism needs to start engaging with this question very soon for its own sake, and setting
out some way that the divisions in NI can be tackled, or a UI will become inevitable.

I've long ago come to the conclusion that people like downcow won't be involved in any engagement on progress in NI...be that a democratic decision to unify with the south or improving life for all. The last few pages put the final nail in any doubt on the subject. Bitterness and spite rather than tell us what is to be celebrated next year. I fear unionists are going to have a difficult year.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think it has been more than adequately proven that he can't list any success for all the people of his wee state.

I know that, but I'd prefer if we just keep asking him.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Haha haha. You don’t like facts. I thought so much.
Don’t let downcow know that UK is 15th out of over 200. Lol. He just screwed you lol

You obviously missed my question in that quoted post. Let me help you out...

Downcow, would you consider Northern Ireland a success? If so, can you give us some examples that brought you to that conclusion?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

There were no Ulster-Scots in the Republic. Working class prods had the pick of all the jobs as they were owned by protestants. Take for example, Guinness:



https://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/thomas-molloy/forget-the-guinness-publicity-shots-drinks-giant-diageo-doesnt-need-us-29349481.html


DC, do you realise that Daniel O'Connell championed the Emancipation of Presbyterians and Jews (not to mention the abolition of slavery)!

Well now here is the issue summed up in one post.
My dads community didn’t even exist in jm08 world.
It’s really quite sad that you can be so bigoted to genuinely believe a whole group of people don’t even exist

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

A great success. If you guys hadn’t have partitioned and stayed with us in UK you might have enjoyed it also.
My memory as a teenager of visiting the south was telephones that wouldn’t work, grass growing in the middle of the road and beggars all over the place. Tough time’s

Right...

So you can give us some examples of the great Northern Ireland success story?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Haha. That’s what Martin and Gerry told you to get you on board. Take responsibility and examine gfa yourself and show me where it says you have jurisdiction over ni.

Ask Theresa May or Boris? Ask yourself why you are having to pretend the infrastructure for a border in the Irish Sea isn't being put in place as you 'celebrate' NI.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Stop fighting among yourselves guys. I sense a feud coming on

Not at all DC. Thing is, discussion is good. Bring a disingenuous poster you wouldn't really understand.

I'm wondering though if you can point to all of these examples of Northern Ireland being a success please?

Junkyard Tom

jm08 wrote: »

Ireland came out as being better than the UK (but still way behind most countries in Europe).

For a lot of people that's enough and that bothers me. We should be comparing ourselves to the likes of Switzerland, Finland, Norway and Austria, not the shit-show across the water that has held us back for centuries.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Well now here is the issue summed up in one post.
My dads community didn’t even exist in jm08 world.
It’s really quite sad that you can be so bigoted to genuinely believe a whole group of people don’t even exist

Downcow, would you consider Northern Ireland a success? If so, can you give us some examples that brought you to that conclusion?

Hubertj

NI is a failure. With the DUP and Sinn Fein as the largest parties there will never be real progress. The people of NI don’t stand a chance relying on those losers. The republic and UK failed the North. It’s an utter shambles. Unfortunately many up there are only half civilised. There are so many reasons for that and it will take generations to fix. A untied Ireland definitely won’t fix it. Creationists on 1 side and bombers on the other. The people don’t stand a chance.

BonnieSituation

Hubertj wrote: »

NI is a failure. With the DUP and Sinn Fein as the largest parties there will never be real progress. The people of NI don’t stand a chance relying on those losers. The republic and UK failed the North. It’s an utter shambles. Unfortunately many up there are only half civilised. There are so many reasons for that and it will take generations to fix. A untied Ireland definitely won’t fix it. Creationists on 1 side and bombers on the other. The people don’t stand a chance.

The people voted for the creationists and the bombers though. Ya see the failure in your logic there?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Not at all DC. Thing is, discussion is good. Bring a disingenuous poster you wouldn't really understand.

I'm wondering though if you can point to all of these examples of Northern Ireland being a success please?

I have given you numerous examples. I can do no more until you give me some parameters.
Is it all about the money?
Is it about sporting success?
Is it about existing for several centuries in the face of an antagonistic neighbour who wants to xxxxx. With you ?
Is it about tourism?
Is it about resisting a sectarian guerrilla campaign ?
Is it about the humour we maintained through it all?
What is it you want me to focus on?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Well now here is the issue summed up in one post.
My dads community didn’t even exist in jm08 world.
It’s really quite sad that you can be so bigoted to genuinely believe a whole group of people don’t even exist

No, there were no Ulster-Scots in Munster (where I'm from). Neither were they in Leinster or Connacht. Working class prods all had access to good jobs where as you can see in the case of Guinness, catholics were discriminated against until the '60s.

downcow

Hubertj wrote: »

NI is a failure. With the DUP and Sinn Fein as the largest parties there will never be real progress. The people of NI don’t stand a chance relying on those losers. The republic and UK failed the North. It’s an utter shambles. Unfortunately many up there are only half civilised. There are so many reasons for that and it will take generations to fix. A untied Ireland definitely won’t fix it. Creationists on 1 side and bombers on the other. The people don’t stand a chance.

Oh boy oh boy. I’ll defend the nationalists by assuring you they are certainly not all bombers, and maybe some republican posters will defend my people.
I also believe most nationalists are civilised. Don’t know what they think of us.
But I do think you are a bigot !!!

Hubertj

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The people voted for the creationists and the bombers though. Ya see the failure in your logic there?

Thats my point, the people of the north have been failed when they believe those parties are the best/only options.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I love ni, love living in ni, everyone I know feels the same, nationalist and unionist. Yes we have different aspirations but we are doing ok. Like every country there are people going through tough times how are not doing ok. How do you measure all that.

This was discussed on Sluggerotoole where a poster discussed this ''love NI'' and questioned what is it that unionists love about NI, bearing in mind that some have said that they would leave NI in the event of a UI. They reckoned that it wasn't NI they loved at all, just the colonial aspect of controlling it.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

No, there were no Ulster-Scots in Munster (where I'm from). Neither were they in Leinster or Connacht. Working class prods all had access to good jobs where as you can see in the case of Guinness, catholics were discriminated against until the '60s.

Here is what you said
“ There were no Ulster-Scots in the Republic.”
That is the core of the problem beautifully demonstrated.
This is why my people had to leave

gormdubhgorm

onh81 wrote: »

Belfast has great bars, loads of hotels, good restaurants and far cheaper than Dublin, much less pretentious and every other person won’t be off their tits asking you for a euro to feed their heroin habit. The opening hours are being extended, Cathedral Quarter (Tribeca) will be having millions pumped into it shortly. Big push with tourism and is becoming increasingly popular with those from the UK as well as those from a Mexican persuasion.

Not sure about that:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/most-expensive-beer-belfast-ireland-13084553

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Here is what you said
“ There were no Ulster-Scots in the Republic.”
That is the core of the problem beautifully demonstrated.
This is why my people had to leave

And your country still discriminates against us to this day

jm08

downcow wrote: »

And your country still discriminates against us to this day

How does it discriminate against you?

(I take it your father is from a border county in Ulster. If I was dismissive of anything, it would have been Donegal, Cavan & Monaghan, not you or your father)?

Spanish Eyes

I never give NI a thought. Ever.

Great thread though, to see how engaged and enraged some can be about that place.

And I certainly will not ever do a staycation there, give my money to the UK? No chance.