Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Oh boy oh boy. I’ll defend the nationalists by assuring you they are certainly not all bombers, and maybe some republican posters will defend my people.
I also believe most nationalists are civilised. Don’t know what they think of us.
But I do think you are a bigot !!!

I'll pick up on pointing out some of my disagreements with a few of your ridiculous points earlier in the thread, Downcow (a basic economic analysis from NI's starting point versus Ireland's starting point compared with the current economy of both would save me the hassle there), but I will absolutely stand up for the fact that the majority of those I know from a Unionist persuasion are not creationists.

The last few pages all round have been pathetic though, blatant antagonism and puerility on both sides that do no one any favours. A bit of grown up discussion, without the insults, talking over eachother, sad act point scoring and ridiculous hyperbole would be much more useful.

timthumbni

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I never give NI a thought. Ever.

Great thread though, to see how engaged and enraged some can be about that place.

And I certainly will not ever do a staycation there, give my money to the UK? No chance.

That’s good. I agree actually. I’ve been to Spain far more times than I’ve been to the the RofI and I won’t be changing that. NI has everything/ that the RofI has and more. Anytime I’ve been to your capital I’ve been underwhelmed by its glamour, and overwhelmed by its junkies.

Best apart, methinks.....

Junkyard Tom

timthumbni wrote: »

NI has everything/ that the RofI has and more.

Lots more alright..

..more poverty, more months on hospital waiting lists, more school leavers, more potholes, more flegs, more hate, more sectarianism, and so on.

RobMc59

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Lots more alright..
5
..more poverty, more months on hospital waiting lists, more school leavers, more potholes, more flegs, more hate, more sectarianism, and so on.

Got to disagree with you there Tom,NI is a beautiful place imo.Have a look at this link.
https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/norn-iron-bucket-list-the-25-best-things-to-do-in-northern-ireland/

Junkyard Tom

RobMc59 wrote: »

Got to disagree with you there Tom,NI is a beautiful place imo.Have a look at this link.
https://www.irelandbeforeyoudie.com/norn-iron-bucket-list-the-25-best-things-to-do-in-northern-ireland/

I agree, Ireland is a beautiful place including the northeastern bit.

Sunny Disposition

Some examples of things that would mark a successful country would be a strong economy, strong social solidarity, easy access to education and healthcare, strong potential for upward mobility. Sporting success (ie winning World Cups etc) doesn’t come into it, but numbers being fit and taking exercise does. Low levels of crime and high levels of personal safety would also be important.

Capt'n Midnight

jm08 wrote: »

Regional comparison would be more informing. For example, the EU Constituency region Munster (takes in Limerick, Tipperary, Waterford & Cork) is the third richest region in the EU (after inner London and Luxembourg).
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/southern-part-of-ireland-third-richest-in-eu-but-west-lags-behind-1.3811364


GDP of Northern Ireland is €27,200 per person
GDP of South West Ireland is €74,700
GDP of Leinster/Dublin is €64,000
GDP of Ireland West/Border area is €28,400
GDP of inner London area is €209,900 per person.
There is something wrong with how poorly NI performs.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/southern-part-of-ireland-third-richest-in-eu-but-west-lags-behind-1.3811364

Don't forget,
the £10.8 billion subvention to NI works out at £5,700 per person.

It's way more than the UK job seekers allowance of £74.35 a week, £3,876 a year.

Capt'n Midnight

downcow wrote: »

Yeah I guess you would love to be like us and have a region with a gdp of £209000 in your country. You could join us , if we allowed you. Try asking nicely. Please and pretty please would be a start

LOL they aren't in your country. You are in theirs.

Only 41% would be upset if the cord was cut.

The best kept secret is that the English public don't realise just how much NI costs. It's a lot more than nett EU membership used to cost.

Spanish Eyes

timthumbni wrote: »

That’s good. I agree actually. I’ve been to Spain far more times than I’ve been to the the RofI and I won’t be changing that. NI has everything/ that the RofI has and more. Anytime I’ve been to your capital I’ve been underwhelmed by its glamour, and overwhelmed by its junkies.

Best apart, methinks.....

Lovely response but typical.

Fleg Off so LOL.

ittakestwo

timthumbni wrote: »

That’s good. I agree actually. I’ve been to Spain far more times than I’ve been to the the RofI and I won’t be changing that. NI has everything/ that the RofI has and more. Anytime I’ve been to your capital I’ve been underwhelmed by its glamour, and overwhelmed by its junkies.

Best apart, methinks.....

Out of interest what does Rofl stand for?

timthumbni

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Lovely response but typical.

Fleg Off so LOL.

Fleg off you say. So cutting. A right card I assume..

timthumbni

ittakestwo wrote: »

Out of interest what does Rofl stand for?

Republic of Ireland.

Spanish Eyes

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

LOL they aren't in your country. You are in theirs.

Only 41% would be upset if the cord was cut.

The best kept secret is that the English public don't realise just how much NI costs. It's a lot more than nett EU membership used to cost.

You are correct. I doubt anyone in the UK realises that the NI economy is based on the Game of Thrones walk through the woods, the Giant's Causeway, the Titanic experience and Civil Servants now.

Spanish Eyes

timthumbni wrote: »

Republic of Ireland.

ROI will do. lol.

ittakestwo

timthumbni wrote: »

Republic of Ireland.

Ok should have seen but only ever saw it abbreviated to ROI before.

Spanish Eyes

timthumbni wrote: »

Fleg off you say. So cutting. A right card I assume..

I love my country, hate flegs and so on, so what is your problem here my dear?

NI is alien to me. All a bit mad, well some are to be sure.

Down here we are ok, no flegs, no July 12th, no nothing really, just live lives and get on with it.

NI is obsessed.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

After beating the British in a war?

Yes, but it goes to show how outlandish this 'what if' scenario is. The British were never going to rise up and force Unionists into a UI by the force of the gun.

But I do love the hypocrisy of it and the general argument here.

The British are 'bad' at not letting Ireland rule itself and for forcing a war of independence.
Yet, at the same token, we want, no EXPECT the British to send its own troops into Belfast and crush the Ulster Volunteers and subjugate Unionist demands to stay in the Union, because some Nationalists in Dublin wanted a UI.

Military intervention in Dublin, bad.
Military intervention in Belfast, good.

:D:D

Because a strong Conservative givernment with a strategic and selfish interest in NI allowed itself to be convinced by Unionists when it should have been locking them up...Carson for sedition and Bonar Law for some of the things he was saying.
Research the fecking period properly will you and stop looking for handy bullet points and sentences that back up the narrative you are trying to sell. Nobody is buying it.

So, they should have locked up Carson and Co. and let Collins and Dev. off.
What world are you living in, seriously?

No British government now, or at that time was ever going to send the British Military into Belfast with the view of crushing a people who see themselves as British and who wants to stay in the Union and who are seen as loyal to the crown.

The British public, military, establishment, press, body politic each would not have stood for it. No PM was ever going to go down that road. Going to war to kick people OUT of the Union?
Deluded!! Utterly deluded if you think that was ever a reasonable 'what if' scenario.

The British were clever actually. It let the whole of Ireland go, with the option of the North to cede from the New Irish Free state and rejoin the Union, thus giving it a democratic legitimacy, which in fairness, is true.

If we, in the south were so upset about it, then we could have invaded the place, as you proposed. It would not have ended well imo.

The mere fact that this invasion didn't happen and that there was little Irish public appetite for such a war means that most Irish people were happy with the outcomes and the new Irish Free State.

markodaly

jm08 wrote: »

Well, 'Dominion' status (which is what the Irish Free State had along with other English/white speaking nations of the BE) is defined as something between a colony and a state. Would you have defined Ireland up to gaining independence a colony of the UK?

It doesn't matter how I define it, what is true is that Ireland (the southern part of it) left the Union in 1922.

This is a fact, you got this wrong, very wrong in fact.

markodaly

Zebra3 wrote: »

Irony off the scale there.

Yesterday you were telling us all that "we, the Irish people" had to have a long, hard think about a border poll despite the fact that it'll be called by the Brits and only voted on by those in the north.

You might wanna be a little less sneery towards others given you don't know half as much as you think.

What are you on about, I said neither nor denied either of those things.

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Lots more alright..

..more poverty, more months on hospital waiting lists, more school leavers, more potholes, more flegs, more hate, more sectarianism, and so on.

Would this not point to the failure of both the DUP and SF?
SF are in government, yet NI has all these problems, yet they want to convince us all here in the south that they have all the answers when their record in the North, is frankly appaling.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

I have given you numerous examples. I can do no more until you give me some parameters.
Is it all about the money?
Is it about sporting success?
Is it about existing for several centuries in the face of an antagonistic neighbour who wants to xxxxx. With you ?
Is it about tourism?
Is it about resisting a sectarian guerrilla campaign ?
Is it about the humour we maintained through it all?
What is it you want me to focus on?

You have given zero examples.

Parameters only constrain the options available to you though. Without those constraints you're free to tell us about any, even a singular success, that you can put down to the existence of Northern Ireland. Just one singular thing that can demonstrate that Northern Ireland has been a success and that you can proudly commemorate Partition next year.

So, Downcow, do you consider Northern Ireland a success?

If you think it has been a success, perhaps you could give us some examples that led you to that conclusion? Thanks.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

And your country still discriminates against us to this day

Can we have examples please, of State-sponsored discrimination against Protestants in the Republic today?

---

Can you outline how Northern Ireland has been a success over the course of the last century?

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Some examples of things that would mark a successful country would be a strong economy, strong social solidarity, easy access to education and healthcare, strong potential for upward mobility. Sporting success (ie winning World Cups etc) doesn’t come into it, but numbers being fit and taking exercise does. Low levels of crime and high levels of personal safety would also be important.

Thanks sunny. I appreciate some parameters. Though some are hard to measure and a bit subjective but here is a genuine attempt at giving you a wee insight into how successful our wee country is.
2018 - best place in the world to visit (lonely planet) https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/travel/belfast-causeway-coast-lonely-planet-best-destination-2018-a3666771.html%3famp

“Belfast is by far one of the the most peaceful and safest cities” (thetravel.com) https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thetravel.com/united-kingdom-safest-cities/amp/

downcow

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I love my country, hate flegs and so on, so what is your problem here my dear?

NI is alien to me. All a bit mad, well some are to be sure.

Down here we are ok, no flegs, no July 12th, no nothing really, just live lives and get on with it.

NI is obsessed.

Spanish eyes. It’s called prejudice and bigotry when you are blind to the issues amongst your community be seen them among others. No flags lol

Lucy8080

downcow wrote: »

I’m not clear Lucy. Your post says it wasn’t democratic vote and next para says it was a democratic vote?

I have sympathy for your lack of clarity. Check out the 1918 all -Ireland election results. What percentage of that Democratic result was in favour of Independence parties?

Why was that Democratic result not implemented? That was 102 years ago.

99 years of N.I. is the mistake that has ensued. The Sunningdale agreement was a chance to rectify some mistakes. Political Unionism scorned that too.

Now Unionism is faced with its third go at honouring Democracy. The G.F.A. has east/west, north/south and International guarantors.

Lose the vote on some future date, will you honour it?

downcow

sunny give some very clear parameters which were very helpful and sent me off looking if there was a independent site anywhere that compared these measures between Dublin and Belfast. And low and behold I could only find one.

Unfortunately Belfast did not beat Dublin on one thing.
It actually beat it on every single factor. Lol -
now all of you who have been talking this nonsense about NI failed should go away and work on your prejudice and bigotry.
I do reckon there may be one or two posters who will have the balls to say “i was mistaken and had believed sf propaganda about Belfast” but there won’t be too many.

.....anyhow, the facts (apologies table didn’t post well, but I can assure you the best figures are always Belfast)

Purchasing Power Index 93.73 69.81
Safety Index 59.71 50.49
Health Care Index 71.74 51.66
Climate Index 90.84 85.89
Cost of Living Index 63.89 86.07
Property Price to Income Ratio 4.21 9.41
Traffic Commute Time Index 37.38 40.56
Pollution Index 27.19 40.11
Quality of Life Index 178.92 137.43

You can check it out here https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=Belfast&country2=Ireland&city2=Dublin

A beautiful Monday morning in OWC!

downcow

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I have sympathy for your lack of clarity. Check out the 1918 all -Ireland election results. What percentage of that Democratic result was in favour of Independence parties?

Why was that Democratic result not implemented? That was 102 years ago.

99 years of N.I. is the mistake that has ensued. The Sunningdale agreement was a chance to rectify some mistakes. Political Unionism scorned that too.

Now Unionism is faced with its third go at honouring Democracy. The G.F.A. has east/west, north/south and International guarantors.

Lose the vote on some future date, will you honour it?

Lucy. That’s not how democracy works. Otherwise Scotland would be independent You either elect a government to make a decision or the government holds a referendum. You don’t hold a general election and the try and manipulate that in to a single issue referendum The clue is in the name (general election)
You are doing what some do here with current general elections and try to say that is how people would vote in a referendum. Take a look at Scotland if you want to see how skewed that is.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Can we have examples please, of State-sponsored discrimination against Protestants in the Republic today?

---

Can you outline how Northern Ireland has been a success over the course of the last century?

I don’t think it is sectarian as much now, thankfully Roi seems to be dropping the church/state connection. It is based on decisions and displays which show their hatred and prejudice against the majority in ni But I think they don’t even notice they are doing it

cameramonkey

downcow wrote: »

sunny give some very clear parameters which were very helpful and sent me off looking if there was a independent site anywhere that compared these measures between Dublin and Belfast. And low and behold I could only find one.

Unfortunately Belfast did not beat Dublin on one thing.
It actually beat it on every single factor. Lol -
now all of you who have been talking this nonsense about NI failed should go away and work on your prejudice and bigotry.
I do reckon there may be one or two posters who will have the balls to say “i was mistaken and had believed sf propaganda about Belfast” but there won’t be too many.

.....anyhow, the facts (apologies table didn’t post well, but I can assure you the best figures are always Belfast)

Purchasing Power Index 93.73 69.81
Safety Index 59.71 50.49
Health Care Index 71.74 51.66
Climate Index 90.84 85.89
Cost of Living Index 63.89 86.07
Property Price to Income Ratio 4.21 9.41
Traffic Commute Time Index 37.38 40.56
Pollution Index 27.19 40.11
Quality of Life Index 178.92 137.43

You can check it out here https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=Belfast&country2=Ireland&city2=Dublin

A beautiful Monday morning in OWC!

What ever about the rest of the statistics the one for weather is wrong Dublin is warmer and drier than Belfast.

Lucy8080

downcow wrote: »

Lucy. That’s not how democracy works. Otherwise Scotland would be independent You either elect a government to make a decision or the government holds a referendum. You don’t hold a general election and the try and manipulate that in to a single issue referendum The clue is in the name (general election)
You are doing what some do here with current general elections and try to say that is how people would vote in a referendum. Take a look at Scotland if you want to see how skewed that is.

Will you honour the result of a border poll if it goes the way of a United Ireland? Even if it is 51% v 49%.

Are you a Democrat?