Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

downcow

cameramonkey wrote: »

What ever about the rest of the statistics the one for weather is wrong Dublin is warmer and drier than Belfast.

The worrying thing here is I think you might actually be serious lol
There is a very sophisticated and recognised method used to work out the climate indices. Are you really saying you know best? Or maybe the UVF have threatened them and they’ve manipulated the figures.

You now have me reaching for the popcorn to see what Francie, jmo8, Bonnie, etc are going to say about this independent worldwide report. Haha

downcow

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Will you honour the result of a border poll if it goes the way of a United Ireland? Even if it is 51% v 49%.

Are you a Democrat?

Absolutely. I have always said I will.
I will then work democratically to get as much autonomy as possible for ni in the new arrangements. I would like fair play and at least as much autonomy as nationalists have been afforded at the min in the uk. Ie our own assembly, identity, international football team, etc, etc.
Would you be happy to support similar autonomy to ni within Ireland as we have enjoyed within uk?

Lucy8080

downcow wrote: »

Absolutely. I have always said I will.
I will then work democratically to get as much autonomy as possible for ni in the new arrangements. I would like fair play and at least as much autonomy as nationalists have been afforded at the min in the uk. Ie our own assembly, identity, international football team, etc, etc.
Would you be happy to support similar autonomy to ni within Ireland as we have enjoyed within uk?

Look if the vote is honoured ,everything else is negotiation with hopefully the best of will on all parts.

Work away Democratically. I won't stand in your way.

downcow

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Look if the vote is honoured ,everything else is negotiation with hopefully the best of will on all parts.

Work away Democratically. I won't stand in your way.

I appreciate that. And I affirm your right to work democratically to achieve a majority for a UI

joe40

downcow wrote: »

sunny give some very clear parameters which were very helpful and sent me off looking if there was a independent site anywhere that compared these measures between Dublin and Belfast. And low and behold I could only find one.

Unfortunately Belfast did not beat Dublin on one thing.
It actually beat it on every single factor. Lol -
now all of you who have been talking this nonsense about NI failed should go away and work on your prejudice and bigotry.
I do reckon there may be one or two posters who will have the balls to say “i was mistaken and had believed sf propaganda about Belfast” but there won’t be too many.

.....anyhow, the facts (apologies table didn’t post well, but I can assure you the best figures are always Belfast)

Purchasing Power Index 93.73 69.81
Safety Index 59.71 50.49
Health Care Index 71.74 51.66
Climate Index 90.84 85.89
Cost of Living Index 63.89 86.07
Property Price to Income Ratio 4.21 9.41
Traffic Commute Time Index 37.38 40.56
Pollution Index 27.19 40.11
Quality of Life Index 178.92 137.43

You can check it out here https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=Belfast&country2=Ireland&city2=Dublin

A beautiful Monday morning in OWC!

Northern Ireland, and Belfast in particular have many good things, there is no doubt about that. I live in a border region and I know the North quite well, and lived in Belfast for awhile in the late 90s and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Leaving aside the troubles the problem for me with the North is the total reliance on the block grant from the UK to sustain it. I don't doubt your post and currently I would choose to live in Belfast over Dublin.

But what happens when westminster turn off the tap. The proportion of people working for the civil service in the North is far higher than the south.

As a region NI is doing quite well, but is is sustainable if the rest of the UK lose interest.

I'm not particularly advocating a UI, but NI residents nationalist and unionist must realise that the relative prosperity NI enjoys is based on the disproportionate money from the rest of the UK. It's not generated by the NI economy.

cameramonkey

downcow wrote: »

The worrying thing here is I think you might actually be serious lol
There is a very sophisticated and recognised method used to work out the climate indices. Are you really saying you know best? Or maybe the UVF have threatened them and they’ve manipulated the figures.

You now have me reaching for the popcorn to see what Francie, jmo8, Bonnie, etc are going to say about this independent worldwide report. Haha

I am not saying I know best but if you look at the official temperature and precipitation records on line then Dublin comes as the same mean temperature as Belfast but a fair bit drier.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfast
https://www.met.ie/climate/available-data/monthly-data


I dont understand the leaning they give to certain figures in your chart but I think the figures speak for themselves and that chart of yours is wrong unless you get a higher mark for more rain.

downcow

joe40 wrote: »

Northern Ireland, and Belfast in particular have many good things, there is no doubt about that. I live in a border region and I know the North quite well, and lived in Belfast for awhile in the late 90s and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Leaving aside the troubles the problem for me with the North is the total reliance on the block grant from the UK to sustain it. I don't doubt your post and currently I would choose to live in Belfast over Dublin.

But what happens when westminster turn off the tap. The proportion of people working for the civil service in the North is far higher than the south.

As a region NI is doing quite well, but is is sustainable if the rest of the UK lose interest.

I'm not particularly advocating a UI, but NI residents nationalist and unionist must realise that the relative prosperity NI enjoys is based on the disproportionate money from the rest of the UK. It's not generated by the NI economy.

I can’t disagree with anything you are saying and I appreciate you realistic post.

I don’t feel our support from uk is about to end. Yes it is one way traffic for last 50 years and I am very appreciative of the wealthier bits of the uk supporting the rest.
That’s how a family works. At one point, to quote a pm, Ulster was the jewel in the uk crown. We were net contributors with our linen mills, shipbuilding etc. We also contributed well over our share during the world wars, and all volunteers. If I am not mistaken Enniskillen was the only town outside London to establish two regiments to defend uk.
That’s all very old history now and thank goodness uk seems as dedicated as ever to keeping us all together in the family.

.....and maybe the prodigal son will return sometime and be welcomed back into the fold

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, but it goes to show how outlandish this 'what if' scenario is. The British were never going to rise up and force Unionists into a UI by the force of the gun.

But I do love the hypocrisy of it and the general argument here.

The British are 'bad' at not letting Ireland rule itself and for forcing a war of independence.
Yet, at the same token, we want, no EXPECT the British to send its own troops into Belfast and crush the Ulster Volunteers and subjugate Unionist demands to stay in the Union, because some Nationalists in Dublin wanted a UI.

Military intervention in Dublin, bad.
Military intervention in Belfast, good.

:D:D

Typical type of mark post.

It was YOU who introduced the idea of the British and Unionists going to war...in order for the Unionists to maintain their place in the Union...a bizarre notion as you were told.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Can we have examples please, of State-sponsored discrimination against Protestants in the Republic today?

---

Can you outline how Northern Ireland has been a success over the course of the last century?

It's not going to happen. All you will get is more potshots and bitterness.

downcow

I will certainly give you examples. But you are so disingenuous and blinked that I feel it’s a waste of time.

downcow

bonnie you wanted an example.

Any time I am driving in Roi I be reminded whose side your government is on as I view the road signs.
You can’t even put the official name of our second largest city, instead it reads ‘Derry’. In ni this is not an issue as everywhere simply gets its official name on road signs - no old sneaky stuff.

Of course maybe it’s not political and there is a paint shortage in roi

The only other place I have seen this is in Serbia where they used Kosovo when the people called it Kosova (although on reflection that was the official name so even they weren’t taking a dig at their neighbours)

jm08

downcow wrote: »

sunny give some very clear parameters which were very helpful and sent me off looking if there was a independent site anywhere that compared these measures between Dublin and Belfast. And low and behold I could only find one.

Unfortunately Belfast did not beat Dublin on one thing.
It actually beat it on every single factor. Lol -
now all of you who have been talking this nonsense about NI failed should go away and work on your prejudice and bigotry.
I do reckon there may be one or two posters who will have the balls to say “i was mistaken and had believed sf propaganda about Belfast” but there won’t be too many.

.....anyhow, the facts (apologies table didn’t post well, but I can assure you the best figures are always Belfast)

Purchasing Power Index 93.73 69.81
Safety Index 59.71 50.49
Health Care Index 71.74 51.66
Climate Index 90.84 85.89
Cost of Living Index 63.89 86.07
Property Price to Income Ratio 4.21 9.41
Traffic Commute Time Index 37.38 40.56
Pollution Index 27.19 40.11
Quality of Life Index 178.92 137.43

You can check it out here https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=Belfast&country2=Ireland&city2=Dublin

A beautiful Monday morning in OWC!

Belfast is more comparable to Cork or Galway;
Quality of Life Index:
Belfast: 178.92
Cork: 169.27
Galway:170.88

Waterford: 178.16


DC, Have you any data for LondonDerry / Derry please (or any part of NI other than Belfast)?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Typical type of mark post.

It was YOU who introduced the idea of the British and Unionists going to war...in order for the Unionists to maintain their place in the Union...a bizarre notion as you were told.

No, it was actually jm08 if you are bothered to read the thread. I just played along for a bit and fleshed it out, to the obvious outlandish conclusion, which he has now ignored.

The point?
Partition was inevitable. There was no alternative, except large scale war, ethnic cleansing or genocide.

Now I don't know about you but I would have partition any day over ethnic cleansing. You on the other hand with the do 'Whatever it toke' sabre rattling, may yet to be convinced that large scale genocide and/or ethnic cleanings is actually not a great thing.

markodaly

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Look if the vote is honoured ,everything else is negotiation with hopefully the best of will on all parts.

Work away Democratically. I won't stand in your way.

What many don't realise is that a document of sort or a blue print will be fleshed out before hand, before any vote.

Lucy8080

markodaly wrote: »

What many don't realise is that a document of sort or a blue print will be fleshed out before hand, before any vote.

I agree. It will have to be fleshed out before-hand. We must learn from past mistakes.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Belfast is more comparable to Cork or Galway;
Quality of Life Index:
Belfast: 178.92
Cork: 169.27
Galway:170.88

Waterford: 178.16


DC, Have you any data for LondonDerry / Derry please (or any part of NI other than Belfast)?

Jmo8. Now you are just asking the impossible. Never satisfied with evidence. Case is disproven.
No doubt sunny won’t be happy with the road signs stuff he’ll want photos

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

No, it was actually jm08 if you are bothered to read the thread. I just played along for a bit and fleshed it out, to the obvious outlandish conclusion, which he has now ignored.

The point?
Partition was inevitable. There was no alternative, except large scale war, ethnic cleansing or genocide.

Now I don't know about you but I would have partition any day over ethnic cleansing. You on the other hand with the do 'Whatever it toke' sabre rattling, may yet to be convinced that large scale genocide and/or ethnic cleanings is actually not a great thing.

You have completely demolished your own point.

There was an alternative to partition and it was the word 'NO'.

What any democratic government would say. But of course we tragically and painfully know the British are only democrats when it suits them.
Unionists are finding that out themselves to their cost, as it is politically expedient for the British to do what suits them. Ireland...all of it was just some other place.

Zebra3

What a fool I was. I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into power.

downcow

Francie we are the british.

downcow

Zebra3 wrote: »

What a fool I was. I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into power.

Haha. I honestly thought I was reading your admission that you had got it all wrong about ni being a failure.
Alas I got to the last line.

It’s all gone very quiet on the failure stuff, because the more you guys paint ni as a failure then the more you are saying Roi is an even bigger failure.

I honestly thought someone would have the balls to admit they got it wrong

downcow

Getting back the the marriage analogy. You guys are basically saying to us that you think we are ugly but you are still head over heels in love with us and can’t live without us. You are basically offer to get us a facelift and tummy tuck if we marry you.

Not a great strategy for a boy trying to woo his girl.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

sunny give some very clear parameters which were very helpful and sent me off looking if there was a independent site anywhere that compared these measures between Dublin and Belfast. And low and behold I could only find one.

Unfortunately Belfast did not beat Dublin on one thing.
It actually beat it on every single factor. Lol -
now all of you who have been talking this nonsense about NI failed should go away and work on your prejudice and bigotry.
I do reckon there may be one or two posters who will have the balls to say “i was mistaken and had believed sf propaganda about Belfast” but there won’t be too many.

.....anyhow, the facts (apologies table didn’t post well, but I can assure you the best figures are always Belfast)

Purchasing Power Index 93.73 69.81
Safety Index 59.71 50.49
Health Care Index 71.74 51.66
Climate Index 90.84 85.89
Cost of Living Index 63.89 86.07
Property Price to Income Ratio 4.21 9.41
Traffic Commute Time Index 37.38 40.56
Pollution Index 27.19 40.11
Quality of Life Index 178.92 137.43

You can check it out here https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&city1=Belfast&country2=Ireland&city2=Dublin

A beautiful Monday morning in OWC!

Sunny is new to your game and your disingenuousness. They'll learn.

No doubt now you have that warm DC feeling that comes with your odd smugness. You can be read as easily as a... Pamphlet.

Nothing above there relates to NI as a whole nor its existence due to Partition.

Did you really need someone else to request things like this to enable you to answer?

We're not asking you to compare economic indicators between two cities in Ireland, nor are you being asked to list things you think the UK as a whole that [could be considered] successful.

---

Can you outline how Northern Ireland has been a success over the course of the last century?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think it is sectarian as much now, thankfully Roi seems to be dropping the church/state connection. It is based on decisions and displays which show their hatred and prejudice against the majority in ni But I think they don’t even notice they are doing it

Right, so when you were saying that you/your "community" were being discriminated against then, you were lying? Would that be a fair summary?

---

Can you outline how Northern Ireland has been a success over the course of the last century?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

The worrying thing here is I think you might actually be serious lol
There is a very sophisticated and recognised method used to work out the climate indices. Are you really saying you know best? Or maybe the UVF have threatened them and they’ve manipulated the figures.

You now have me reaching for the popcorn to see what Francie, jmo8, Bonnie, etc are going to say about this independent worldwide report. Haha

Cool story.


Can you outline how Northern Ireland has been a success over the course of the last century?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate that. And I affirm your right to work democratically to achieve a majority for a UI

You don't need Lucy to "allow you" to be democratic. It's the standard position for most people in a democratic society. The clue is in the name.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

e

Sunny is new to your game and your disingenuousness. They'll learn.

No doubt now you have that warm DC feeling that comes with your odd smugness. You can be read as easily as a... Pamphlet.

---

Can you outline how Northern Ireland has been a success over the course of the last century?

Sunny and me may not agree but he/she was decent and reasonable and provided parameters and a basis to answer the question.
The answer couldn’t be much clearer. Seems ni is a much greater success than Roi. ....and if you had carried out same survey 50 years ago we all no the answer would have been even more stark.
You are catching up with us I am pleased to note but you have a bit to go.

Now if you can think of another specific area that you want me to demonstrate success in then I will but I currently can’t think of one.

Any comment from you on how disingenuous you country is by refusing to name our second city by its official name? A bit of a petty little dig methinks, just to let us know that in a UI our identity would be airbrushed out

BonnieSituation

joe40 wrote: »

Northern Ireland, and Belfast in particular have many good things, there is no doubt about that. I live in a border region and I know the North quite well, and lived in Belfast for awhile in the late 90s and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Leaving aside the troubles the problem for me with the North is the total reliance on the block grant from the UK to sustain it. I don't doubt your post and currently I would choose to live in Belfast over Dublin.

But what happens when westminster turn off the tap. The proportion of people working for the civil service in the North is far higher than the south.

As a region NI is doing quite well, but is is sustainable if the rest of the UK lose interest.

I'm not particularly advocating a UI, but NI residents nationalist and unionist must realise that the relative prosperity NI enjoys is based on the disproportionate money from the rest of the UK. It's not generated by the NI economy.

Nothing above demonstrates how NI has been a "success" though.

A simple question now going unanswered for yet another day.

Some might say the evasion of the answer would be an indication that perhaps it is a "failure".

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

I will certainly give you examples. But you are so disingenuous and blinked that I feel it’s a waste of time.

Give us examples please.
Thank you.

NB. We've repeatedly gone through the Love Ulster parade "discrimination" that never happened. You should probably come up with other, more recent or current examples of State-sponsored discrimination of the PUL people.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Right, so when you were saying that you/your "community" were being discriminated against then, you were lying? Would that be a fair summary?
?

Maybe you haven’t reached it yet but I posted to say that I thought ROI was moving away from sectarianism (slowly) and that the discrimination was based on our identity or if you like community background.

I gave you the example of you country not recognising the official name of our 2nd city to remind us that they intend airbrushing our identity our, should there ever be a UI.
I couldn't find any other country doing this on its neighbour on all their road signs.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Haha. I honestly thought I was reading your admission that you had got it all wrong about ni being a failure.
Alas I got to the last line.

It’s all gone very quiet on the failure stuff, because the more you guys paint ni as a failure then the more you are saying Roi is an even bigger failure.

I honestly thought someone would have the balls to admit they got it wrong

It hasn't gone quiet. It's just been a busy day in the sun in Co Sligo. But I'm raring to go.

---

Can you outline how Northern Ireland has been a success over the course of the last century?