Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Getting back the the marriage analogy. You guys are basically saying to us that you think we are ugly but you are still head over heels in love with us and can’t live without us. You are basically offer to get us a facelift and tummy tuck if we marry you.

Not a great strategy for a boy trying to woo his girl.

You keep confusing dislike for NI for dislike of you and your ilk.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It hasn't gone quiet. It's just been a busy day in the sun in Co Sligo. But I'm raring to go.

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Can you outline how Northern Ireland has been a success over the course of the last century?

Bonnie. You are making a fool of yourself. I have post a detailed and independent like outlining how Belfast is ahead of Dublin accross every measure. We are very small countries so it would be safe to assume our capital cities would be a good guide.
It’s getting a little embarrassing!

And I also gave you a more recent discrimination example as you requested. It’s so recent you can go and have a look lol
https://www.flickr.com/photos/48073612@N04/9059535359

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Sunny and me may not agree but he/she was decent and reasonable and provided parameters and a basis to answer the question.
The answer couldn’t be much clearer. Seems ni is a much greater success than Roi. ....and if you had carried out same survey 50 years ago we all no the answer would have been even more stark.
You are catching up with us I am pleased to note but you have a bit to go.

Now if you can think of another specific area that you want me to demonstrate success in then I will but I currently can’t think of one.

Any comment from you on how disingenuous you country is by refusing to name our second city by its official name? A bit of a petty little dig methinks, just to let us know that in a UI our identity would be airbrushed out

Right...

Again, you do know that Belfast =/= Northern Ireland?

What's wrong with calling Derry, Derry? Are you now getting offended by road signs in a "foreign" country?

Have you an issue with the use of An tIúr, Inis Ceithleann or Béal Feirste as well?

Anyway, not to get off the subject, as much as you want to...

Can you outline how Northern Ireland has been a success over the course of the last century?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie we are the british.

You identify as British and are the subject of an Internationally binding agreement where the British government state you are a part of 'the people of Ireland' in whose hands is their own fate, without 'outside impediment' - meaning the 'British' government will be neutral and will not interfere.

That you are clearly outside is a matter for you to take up with the British, not me.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Right...

Again, you do know that Belfast =/= Northern Ireland?

What's wrong with calling Derry, Derry? Are you now getting offended by road signs in a "foreign" country?

Have you an issue with the use of An tIúr, Inis Ceithleann or Béal Feirste as well?

Not at all. I like your Irish road signs in Roi if a tad confusing sometimes.

You tell me why your road signs don’t use the official name of the city?
Don’t tell me whether it’s ok or not. Just tell me why it is done ?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie. You are making a fool of yourself. I have post a detailed and independent like outlining how Belfast is ahead of Dublin accross every measure. We are very small countries so it would be safe to assume our capital cities would be a good guide.
It’s getting a little embarrassing!

And I also gave you a more recent discrimination example as you requested. It’s so recent you can go and have a look lol
https://www.flickr.com/photos/48073612@N04/9059535359

Do we need to define "fool" for you?

Clearly I missed this detailed post so, but I distinctly remember a post with some comparisons of Dublin to Belfast.

No posts so far demonstrating how NI has been a success.

LuasSimon

It was a fairly mad idea by Michael Collins and co that dividing up the country would work ?
Thousands died in the civil war and it created decades of hostilities and problems . The troubles caused thousands of deaths and mayhem for all sides .
We should have all stayed in the United Kingdom or had a United ireland , not the fudge it’s created to this day . If many of us lived in south armagh or Tyrone we’d probably have been sick of been treated like second class citizens as well and joined the Ira .

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There was an alternative to partition and it was the word 'NO'.

You really want to do this again? Really, after I have turned your argument asunder?

OK, lets do it.

Collins and Co. say 'NO'... what then?? Ethnic Cleansing shall begin?

We continue fighting I presume, against the British or the Ulster Volunteers or both.... until what end? Genocide? Kill them all, Game of Thrones style, or at least enough of them so Nationalists come to dominate the 6 counties?

The Ulster Volunteers were still there in 1921, ready and waiting to see what happens.
Do you think the Irish Free State should have invaded the 6 counties?
Do you want the British Army to do our dirty work?
The Ulster Volunteers give up after we say 'No'?

In what alternative world view do we not end up in partition?
Go, give us the Francie masterplan, of 'Whatever it took' because that is just three little words, not a policy.

What any democratic government would say.

The Irish Free State in the Dail said 'Yes' to partition.
The Unionists in Stormont said 'Yes' to partition.

In what world is that NOT democratic?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

You really want to do this again? Really, after I have turned your argument asunder?

OK, lets do it.

Collins and Co. say 'NO'... what then?? Ethnic Cleansing shall begin?

We continue fighting I presume, against the British or the Ulster Volunteers or both.... until what end? Genocide? Kill them all, Game of Thrones style, or at least enough of them so Nationalists come to dominate the 6 counties?

The Ulster Volunteers were still there in 1921, ready and waiting to see what happens.
Do you think the Irish Free State should have invaded the 6 counties?
Do you want the British Army to do our dirty work?
The Ulster Volunteers give up after we say 'No'?

In what alternative world view do we not end up in partition?
Go, give us the Francie masterplan, of 'Whatever it took' because that is just three little words, not a policy.





The Irish Free State in the Dail said 'Yes' to partition.
The Unionists in Stormont said 'Yes' to partition.

In what world is that NOT democratic?

eh...mark...the '6 counties' did not exist BEFORE partition.

Allowing partition was the mistake and the wrong. It should NEVER have been on the table in the first place.

As you demolished your own argument by dismissing any notion that the Unionists would have fought the British...the British behaving like democrats would have solved the problem and led to negotiations rather than a war.

Once they didn't punish Carson for raising a private army the dye was cast.

ittakestwo

markodaly wrote: »

You really want to do this again? Really, after I have turned your argument asunder?

OK, lets do it.

Collins and Co. say 'NO'... what then?? Ethnic Cleansing shall begin?

We continue fighting I presume, against the British or the Ulster Volunteers or both.... until what end? Genocide? Kill them all, Game of Thrones style, or at least enough of them so Nationalists come to dominate the 6 counties?

The Ulster Volunteers were still there in 1921, ready and waiting to see what happens.
Do you think the Irish Free State should have invaded the 6 counties?
Do you want the British Army to do our dirty work?
The Ulster Volunteers give up after we say 'No'?

In what alternative world view do we not end up in partition?
Go, give us the Francie masterplan, of 'Whatever it took' because that is just three little words, not a policy.





The Irish Free State in the Dail said 'Yes' to partition.
The Unionists in Stormont said 'Yes' to partition.

In what world is that NOT democratic?

Ireland had been one jurisdiction for 700 years before 1921. A lot of unionist identified as Irish unionists and not British then. You are basically arguing that it correct to split a country when there is divergence on opinion on a subject.

So then by your logic it would be a great Idea to split the UK on the Brext subject? Let NI and Scotland stay in the EU, and England and Wales leave as that what the people vote came in at. That is basically what they did to Ireland, a 700 year old country/jurisdiction in 1921.

Beltby

downcow wrote: »

Not at all. I like your Irish road signs in Roi if a tad confusing sometimes.

You tell me why your road signs don’t use the official name of the city?
Don’t tell me whether it’s ok or not. Just tell me why it is done ?

Our road signs are in Irish and English. The Irish for Derry is Doire. There is no Irish for Londonderry. The direct translation to English for Doire is Derry.

There's also the fact that NI itself refers to the council there as 'Derry and Strabane district council.' I don't see you complaining about that.

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

Our road signs are in Irish and English. The Irish for Derry is Doire. There is no Irish for Londonderry. The direct translation to English for Doire is Derry.

There's also the fact that NI itself refers to the council there as 'Derry and Strabane district council.' I don't see you complaining about that.

You are not answering the question.
Why do you not respect your neighbour and put the official name of the city on the sign?? There must be a reason?

Why would I complain about the correct use of the term Derry in the council or in ABOD etc.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You are not answering the question.
Why do you not respect your neighbour and put the official name of the city on the sign?? There must be a reason?

Why would I complain about the correct use of the term Derry in the council or in ABOD etc.

The guy who has no problem with Irish language signs being torn down, the guy who will not spell names correctly here because they are in Irish, wants 'respect' for a name that is disputed on this island?

Some neck there.

Zebra3

downcow wrote: »

You are not answering the question.
Why do you not respect your neighbour and put the official name of the city on the sign?? There must be a reason?

Why would I complain about the correct use of the term Derry in the council or in ABOD etc.

Loads of road signs in NI don't say Londonderry either.

joe40

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Nothing above demonstrates how NI has been a "success" though.

A simple question now going unanswered for yet another day.

Some might say the evasion of the answer would be an indication that perhaps it is a "failure".

I agree I don't think northern ireland has been a success. As an entity it is totally dependant on cash transfer from the UK. What is also quite obvious and highlighted by the Brexit talks is that NI love affair with the union is not reciprocated.
I was making the point that it is possible to have a comfortable live in the North as a middle class person, but the foundations are not solid. Far too much dependence on the block grant.
Probably no change in the medium term but I don't think that situation can be construed as a success.

When partition occured the protestant community in East Donegal (where I know) got on with the new arrangements without any hassle or ethnic cleansing.

I think partition was a mistake. With hindsight maybe the treaty should not have been signed but it would also have been futile to continue fighting at that time. I think the Empire was falling apart, Irish independence was probably inevitable at some stage during the 20th century.

Drawing a arbitrary border around the North East corner was not a good idea.

BonnieSituation

Beltby wrote: »

Our road signs are in Irish and English. The Irish for Derry is Doire. There is no Irish for Londonderry. The direct translation to English for Doire is Derry.

There's also the fact that NI itself refers to the council there as 'Derry and Strabane district council.' I don't see you complaining about that.

Tbh referring to a city by the vernacular is hardly the worst idea now is it? Nor is referring to a city by the name that most of the citizens of that city would refer to it as as well.

I mean, did DC have an issue with the name of Derry City Council as the name of the city's local authority before the merger with Strabane? Probably never gave it a second thought tbf. Imagine, a unionist reactionary. Mad!

Would you reckon he made a point of referring to Kingston-upon-Hull rather than Hull before they officially changed the name?

---

DC, can you demonstrate how Northern Ireland has been a success for the last century?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

You are not answering the question.
Why do you not respect your neighbour and put the official name of the city on the sign?? There must be a reason?

Why would I complain about the correct use of the term Derry in the council or in ABOD etc.

Respect our neighbour? The people of Derry call their city "Derry". Are you really trying to make out that it's that offensive or disrespectful? Really?

I would point you to Transport Infrastructure Ireland (www.tii.ie) who I'm sure will take on your complaint with all the force and consideration it deserves.

---

DC, can you demonstrate how Northern Ireland has been a success for the last century?

BonnieSituation

joe40 wrote: »

I agree I don't think northern ireland has been a success. As an entity it is totally dependant on cash transfer from the UK. What is also quite obvious and highlighted by the Brexit talks is that NI love affair with the union is not reciprocated.
I was making the point that it is possible to have a comfortable live in the North as a middle class person, but the foundations are not solid. Far too much dependence on the block grant.
Probably no change in the medium term but I don't think that situation can be construed as a success.

When partition occured the protestant community in East Donegal (where I know) got on with the new arrangements without any hassle or ethnic cleansing.

I think partition was a mistake. With hindsight maybe the treaty should not have been signed but it would also have been futile to continue fighting at that time. I think the Empire was falling apart, Irish independence was probably inevitable at some stage during the 20th century.

Drawing a arbitrary border around the North East corner was not a good idea.

But Joe, you would think someone who has stated that it has been a success on numerous occasions that they would be able to demonstrate that and give us at least one or two examples of said success.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

eh...mark...the '6 counties' did not exist BEFORE partition.

The Ulster Volunteers did, along with the 1 million or so Unionists. They existed. Hence why partition was inevitable.

Allowing partition was the mistake and the wrong. It should NEVER have been on the table in the first place.

And you masterplan to avoid it, is......??

As you demolished your own argument by dismissing any notion that the Unionists would have fought the British...the British behaving like democrats would have solved the problem and led to negotiations rather than a war.

Once they didn't punish Carson for raising a private army the dye was cast.

Oh, your masterplan was to get the Brits to do the dirty work and heavy lifting.
So we are back to:

British Army fighting the IRA.. Bad!
British Army fighting the Ulster Volunteers... Good!

:D:D

Francies, plan... get the British Army to subjugate a minority on the Island of Ireland..
Hmmm, I think I saw this movie before. :)

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

The Ulster Volunteers did, along with the 1 million or so Unionists. They existed. Hence why partition was inevitable.

Whom we have all agreed were NEVER going to go to war against the British.

SO if the British had been democrats and said partition was not an option.....work it out for yourself Mark.

And you masterplan to avoid it, is......??



Oh, your masterplan was to get the Brits to do the dirty work and heavy lifting.
So we are back to:

British Army fighting the IRA.. Bad!
British Army fighting the Ulster Volunteers... Good!

:D:D

Francies, plan... get the British Army to subjugate a minority on the Island of Ireland..
Hmmm, I think I saw this movie before. :)

No Mark...get the British to be democrats. Say NO to Unionists as they did from the Anglo Irish Agreement on.

RobMc59

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Some examples of things that would mark a successful country would be a strong economy, strong social solidarity, easy access to education and healthcare, strong potential for upward mobility. Sporting success (ie winning World Cups etc) doesn’t come into it, but numbers being fit and taking exercise does. Low levels of crime and high levels of personal safety would also be important.

The things you point out are relevant but if you examine each in turn can you say NI lags behind?Take crime as one,it`s well know even here in England there are problems in Ireland-the Ballbriggan race wars are one example.I had never seen anyone begging in the street until i was on holiday in Waterford some time ago.To attempt to portray Ni as somehow a worse place is a fallacy propagated by disgruntled republicans who have had their noses put out.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

The things you point out are relevant but if you examine each in turn can you say NI lags behind?Take crime as one,it`s well know even here in England there are problems in Ireland-the Ballbriggan race wars are one example.I had never seen anyone begging in the street until i was on holiday in Waterford some time ago.To attempt to portray Ni as somehow a worse place is a fallacy propagated by disgruntled republicans who have had their noses put out.

Ah Rob.

Do you think Northern Ireland is a failure?

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ah Rob.

Do you think Northern Ireland is a failure?

Well bonnie al lad,if you'd been following the thread you would have the answer to that ,as it happens,I think NI is a valued,vibrant part of the UK,the people are warm and friendly long may it remain so.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Well bonnie al lad,if you'd been following the thread you would have the answer to that ,as it happens,I think NI is a valued,vibrant part of the UK,the people are warm and friendly long may it remain so.

Okay, but that doesn't answer the specific question that was asked, either by me or the OP or the thread title.

Do you think Northern Ireland has been a failure over the last century?

Beltby

RobMc59 wrote: »

The things you point out are relevant but if you examine each in turn can you say NI lags behind?Take crime as one,it`s well know even here in England there are problems in Ireland-the Ballbriggan race wars are one example.I had never seen anyone begging in the street until i was on holiday in Waterford some time ago.To attempt to portray Ni as somehow a worse place is a fallacy propagated by disgruntled republicans who have had their noses put out.

You've never seen a beggar in Liverpool? Funny that. I've seen quite a few and I've only been to Liverpool city centre a handful of times. I've seen a few in Southport too. So forgive me if I don't believe you.

BonnieSituation

Beltby wrote: »

You've never seen a beggar in Liverpool? Funny that. I've seen quite a few and I've only been to Liverpool city centre a handful of times. I've seen a few in Southport too. So forgive me if I don't believe you.

You're new here. You'll soon learn how our resident belligerent unionists and lickspittles operate.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

the people are warm and friendly long may it remain so.

Of course they are, they are Irish after all.

Beltby

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You're new here. You'll soon learn how our resident belligerent unionists and lickspittles operate.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Okay, but that doesn't answer the specific question that was asked, either by me or the OP or the thread title.

Do you think Northern Ireland has been a failure over the last century?

No,I think NI along with the rest of the UK has suffered from the effects of WW2 and tory austerity has also forced us all to tighten our belts but generally I believe NI is holding it`s own.Ironically,it may yet surge with the added advantages it will have due to brexit which will cause more vexation amongst disgruntled republicans.

RobMc59

Beltby wrote: »

You've never seen a beggar in Liverpool? Funny that. I've seen quite a few and I've only been to Liverpool city centre a handful of times. I've seen a few in Southport too. So forgive me if I don't believe you.

I`ve seen a few around anfield.Is your reference to southport beggers a clue to your disgruntled republican leaning?