Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

Junkyard Tom

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

There won't be another 99 years unless the economy diversifies or finds a magic loophole with it's EU/UK status.

https://twitter.com/Freight_NI/status/1300521880126918656?s=20

Up next, Ireland's economy inexorably stitches itself into one economic unit to the point where, some years down the line, any reversal would cause massive economic disruption and thus will be politically implausible.

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

You do realise that the people from the south has invested massively in NI. For example, the Titantic Centre was developed by Harcourt Investments which is a Dublin company with Prince Charles step son on the board, presumably to keep the place being burned down on the 12 by the local loyalist yobs.

Impressive.There`s a myriad of UK companies who have invested or own brands in Ireland.Diagio being one who own Guinness and Bailey`s but I doubt they would want to rock the boat and I imagine Harcourt investments would`nt want to either and long may it continue.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

Impressive.There`s a myriad of UK companies who have invested or own brands in Ireland.Diagio being one who own Guinness and Bailey`s but I doubt they would want to rock the boat and I imagine Harcourt investments would`nt want to either and long may it continue.

Get away out of that - Guinness was developed in Ireland (Baileys too) and moved its HQ to London because of the tariffs being imposed during the Economic War. There is a cautionary tales there for Brixiteers!

Then of course, Earnest Saunders nearly destroyed the company. Absolutely no fear of Guinness leaving Ireland.

Harcourt Investments created the Titanic Quarter and probably the only marketing of the Titanic Exhibition Centre is probably the only reason that anyone now goes to Belfast because there is something to do there. The other attraction is The Game of Thrones attraction, which now that it has finished might hit visitor numbers.

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

Get away out of that - Guinness was developed in Ireland (Baileys too) and moved its HQ to London because of the tariffs being imposed during the Economic War. There is a cautionary tales there for Brixiteers!

Then of course, Earnest Saunders nearly destroyed the company. Absolutely no fear of Guinness leaving Ireland.

Harcourt Investments created the Titanic Quarter and probably the only marketing of the Titanic Exhibition Centre is probably the only reason that anyone now goes to Belfast because there is something to do there. The other attraction is The Game of Thrones attraction, which now that it has finished might hit visitor numbers.

I think you`ve missed the point that Belfast is a success and you pointing out that Irish companies have invested heavily there helps prove that.I actually said Diagio would`nt want to rock the boat and never said anything about them trying to take Guinness out of Ireland but once again you don`t read the posts

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

Sectarianism is rife in NI which is it's big failure. The two main parties encourage it despite 22 years since the GFA. I would prefer to see NI ruled from London to avoid this but do people in London care?

Kids are still segregated into national and unionist schools (teach them young) and there is no political will to change this. In fact the two main parties would oppose merging of schools which is further more why London should intervene. But this will cost a lot and do they want to invest more in NI which is already running a significant deficit and might not be part of the UK in 20 years?

There is no such thing as unionist schools. There are RC schools, state schools, integrated schools (ironically many of the state schools are more integrated than the integrated schools which often are not integrated) Irish schools and a couple of tiny free p schools.

Granadino

And shur wasn't Arthur Guinness a unionist...

Capt'n Midnight

jh79 wrote: »

The UK has a GDP of over 3 trillion. Ireland's is 330 billion or so. Probably more correct to say there will be another 99 years unless NI diversifies its economy or finds a magic loophole with it's EU/UK status.

UK doesn't have a GDP of over 3 trillion. Not even if you measure it in dollars. £2.21 trillion in 2019.

But it's dropped more than other OECD countries since lockdown. BHS closed down before Brexit and still 1/4 of the stores are still empty, and it's mostly places like Primark , Poundland taking some of the others.

And Brexit hasn't really happened because the UK continues to trade on the old rules until the end of the year.



There's upwards of 1.8 million people in NI who could get an EU passport. And the EU has over a fifth of global GDP.

jh79

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

UK doesn't have a GDP of over 3 trillion. Not even if you measure it in dollars. £2.21 trillion in 2019.

But it's dropped more than other OECD countries since lockdown. BHS closed down before Brexit and still 1/4 of the stores are still empty, and it's mostly places like Primark , Poundland taking some of the others.

And Brexit hasn't really happened because the UK continues to trade on the old rules until the end of the year.



There's upwards of 1.8 million people in NI who could get an EU passport. And the EU has over a fifth of global GDP.

It's still going to be multiples of our GDP. The worse NI gets the more expensive it becomes.

Sunny Disposition

I don’t think it’s controversial to say the northern economy trails the southern one, or that the reverse was true before partition. It is very striking that there’s a bit of a disparity, particularly when you employ people on both sides.

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

There is no such thing as unionist schools. There are RC schools, state schools, integrated schools (ironically many of the state schools are more integrated than the integrated schools which often are not integrated) Irish schools and a couple of tiny free p schools.

Well if NI is to make social progress on secterism, children all need to be in integrated schools. Over 90% are not and the two main political parties want to keep it that way.

Capt'n Midnight

jh79 wrote: »

The worse NI gets the more expensive it becomes.

That's it in a nutshell.

I can remember when you crossed the border the roads got better. Except now it's the other way around.


The difference used to be West/East Germany.

But it's now North/South Korea or USA/Mexico.

Ireland couldn't keep NI on life support long term.

But with a dowry from the UK, EU aid, Foreign Investment and weaning NI off state aid and into gainful employment it should be possible in the medium term. It would need some IDA magic or something like the Free Trade Zone in Shannon (which the Chinese copied big time)


It'd doable especially when the alternative is that
The worse NI gets the more expensive it becomes.

Charles Babbage

ittakestwo wrote: »

Well if NI is to make social progress on secterism, children all need to be in integrated schools. Over 90% are not and the two main political parties want to keep it that way.

If I substitute Cork for NI in this sentence does it work equally well?

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Minds can be colonised - like a sort of post-colonial Stockholm Syndrome. You often read the utterances of colonised minds here on boards with dumb statements like 'we'd still be living in mud huts if we hadn't been colonised by the English', or 'we'd be a regional backwater if we didn't speak English', these are not uncommon views founded on fuck all.

So again, how do you proposed we should have done that?

Send people you disagree with off to 're-education' camps?
Manditory history lessons every Saturday morning?
Some 'good citizen' test to be taken every year, with people not up to the mark publicly excoriated from the nearest church pulpit?

In fairness, the Free State did very well in locking up people, sure per captia we had one of the most incarcerated population in Europe, right up there with Stalins Russia, but unfortunately for women and other 'undesirables' they were the victims.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Holy moley.. you have also now blithely ignored that Britain stood ideally by and watched as Unionists changed the voting system.

After partition, right? Tell me how would we have stopped partition? Are we back to finding a time-machine?

I know you favour partition but to so abjectly doff the hat and not lay the blame where it belongs is one of the reasons the whole thing went up in the flames many knew it would at the time.

Parition is in off itself amoral. It has no feelings, or thoughts or mind.

My point, is that partition was inevitable, something you know deep down to be true otherwise you would have had some plan or way around it.
Since you have provided nothing, absolutely nothing, zero, nada, zlich in your argument against it from happening, its proof enough for me and most other people.

Your whole attitude stinks and that you routinely blame it on one side stinks even more.
'The British gave the north self determination'...never have I read such bull on this site. The British gave the north a s3ctarian bigoted state that tragically had to be overthrown and tge Dublin government had to dragged into taking it's share of responsibility too.
Go read some history...all of it, not just the bias confirming stuff.

You may throw your toys out of the pram if you so wish, but its true, Westminister gave the North the option to either stay in the new Free State or re-join the Union.
This is a fact.

They chose the latter.
This is also a fact.

Hence why partition was inevtiable.
100 years later NI is still part of the Union and under the domain ultimately of Westminister.
Therefore its 100% self evident.

No amount of rebel songs, or pints of stout, or rethorical debates can change that.

I repeat, partition was inevitable.

PS: Still waiting for your master plan.

ittakestwo

Charles Babbage wrote: »

If I substitute Cork for NI in this sentence does it work equally well?

I dont get what you mean. Cork does not have a problem with secterism, NI does.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Do you not feel objections to Irish language signage are petty? Do you feel they're valid objections?

Do you feel your Britishness is diluted by seeing words like "Torra fy Ngwallt yn Hir" or "Yr Atal Genhedlaeth" about the place?

Bonnie you need to get better at facing realities and asking yourself why.

I recognise that a number of bitter republicans on both sides of the border hate any display of identity from my community. They are just bigots.
But I need to recognise that a much greater number of moderate nationalists have struggles with certain elements of my community’s displays. I could just say ‘belligerent intolerant Irish nationalism, and that would require no self examination and would just blame the other.
I am pretty sure it’s not because ordinary nationalists dislike certain colours or don’t like flute music or to see people enjoying themselves. I can’t be benign if so many people have a problem so we need to find a way not to enable offence.

No you need to do the same around Irish language.
You need to ask yourself why every single unionist party (wee and big, moderate and extreme) and every unionists politician are completely opposed to an Irish language act and Irish road signs (at this time).
The vast majority of these same people are fully supportive of the Irish language receiving 10 times plus support of any other second language in ni, supportive of Irish busaries, radio programmes, fleadhs, etc.
You need to ask yourselves what part certain elements of nationalism has played in creating this situation around road signs and an Act.
......or you can say just unionist belligerence. I know unionists who say exactly that ie ‘nationalist belligerence’ because you oppose orange marches.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

You do realise that the people from the south has invested massively in NI. For example, the Titantic Centre was developed by Harcourt Investments which is a Dublin company with Prince Charles step son on the board, presumably to keep the place being burned down on the 12 by the local loyalist yobs.

Here’s the mask slipping again.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

The vast majority of these same people are fully supportive of the Irish language receiving 10 times plus support of any other second language in ni, supportive of Irish busaries, radio programmes, fleadhs, etc.

They've no choice or they'd expose their hatred of a very important aspect of the culture of their nationalist/Irish neighbours.

The fact that you try to relegate the historic native language to '[an]other 2nd language' exposes your own bigotry.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Harcourt Investments created the Titanic Quarter and probably the only marketing of the Titanic Exhibition Centre is probably the only reason that anyone now goes to Belfast because there is something to do there. The other attraction is The Game of Thrones attraction, which now that it has finished might hit visitor numbers.

You really need to get over your hatred of OWC.
Just sit yourself down with a coffee and as why you and lonely planet taken opposite positions. Maybe lonely planet is allowing themselves to be prejudiced by their bigotry?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/travel/belfast-causeway-coast-lonely-planet-best-destination-2018-a3666771.html%3famp

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

Well if NI is to make social progress on secterism, children all need to be in integrated schools. Over 90% are not and the two main political parties want to keep it that way.

What do you class as an integrated school?
This is an important question
My nearest ‘officially integrated’ school has one Protestant family attending. My nearest state post primary school hundreds of Catholics attending - probably 30%.
Which school would you class as integrated?

More and more Catholics are attending state schools. RC schools are almost exclusively catholic. ‘Officially integrated’ schools are making little impact.
The biggest challenge is that localities are often not integrated thereby making truly integrated education impossible.

But I completely agree that we need kids educated together. By far and away the greatest block to that are the RC church and nationalist community for continuing to send their kids to segregated education

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

They've no choice or they'd expose their hatred of a very important aspect of the culture of their nationalist/Irish neighbours.

The fact that you try to relegate the historic native language to '[an]other 2nd language' exposes your own bigotry.

Interesting you felt the need to clip my post and not address the issue. Which ironically was the issue I was highlighting lol

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Interesting you felt the need to clip my post and not address the issue. Which ironically was the issue I was highlighting lol

The issue is the ingrained hatred and bigotry in inherent to unionism. The fact that you relegate the historic native language to 'other 2nd languages' exposes your own bitterness at its growth.

See all those mountains, rivers, lakes and town-lands that you live in DC? The vast majority of their names are bad translations of the native language, they're fossilised examples of the stupidity of the colonisers and the cultural depth of heritage of the native people. Very fitting I would say.

You'll never be able to erase our cultural heritage, you need to come to terms with that. In fact, I'd say the northeast will have the highest density of Irish language speakers in Ireland within a generation.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The issue is the ingrained hatred and bigotry in inherent to unionism. The fact that you relegate the historic native language to 'other 2nd languages' exposes your own bitterness at its growth.

See all those mountains, rivers, lakes and town-lands that you live in DC? The vast majority of their names are bad translations of the native language, they're fossilised examples of the stupidity of the colonisers and the cultural depth of heritage of the native people. Very fitting I would say.

You'll never be able to erase our cultural heritage, you need to come to terms with that. In fact, I'd say the northeast will have the highest density of Irish language speakers in Ireland within a generation.

That’s all great. I love to hear native language spoken by genuine lovers of the language.
But you need to do as I suggested, consider why you have turned off the most moderate unionists to an Irish language act and road signs. How has this happened. Can’t only be the fault of all the scummy prods. You require to develop the ability to examine your own weaknesses and responsibilities

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

But you need to do as I suggested, consider why you have turned of the most moderate unionists to an Irish language act and road signs.

We might not have had these issues if Unionists had not systemically suppressed the language from the earliest days of their rotten one-party unionist ethno-statelet.

You know, in another universe there's a northern Ireland where Unionists sat down at its creation and decided that for the region's long-term survival they'd have to make nationalists feel cherished as equal members of society and none of these issues ever arose, there was no troubles, no housing disputes, no need for some of the world's most rigorous anti-sectarian employment laws, there is very little but a friendly rivalry between the two traditions. This is your dream NI, right?

Will Unionism ever reach out and say 'we're sorry, we made a balls of this, we pandered to hateful lunatics like Ian Paisley instead of ostracising them, we made a culture out of rubbing your noses in it and that was wrong'. Just how many chances do Unionists need to make the north work?

I don't think Unionism is capable of it. Unionism is its own worst enemy as we can see with the soon-to-be Irish Sea border. This is why the north is a failed entity, all that's happening here is the long goodbye.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

We might not have had these issues if Unionists had not systemically suppressed the language from the earliest days of their rotten one-party unionist ethno-statelet.

You know, in another universe there's a northern Ireland where Unionists sat down at its creation and decided that for the region's long-term survival they'd have to make nationalists feel cherished as equal members of society and none of these issues ever arose, there was no troubles, no housing disputes, no need for some of the world's most rigorous anti-sectarian employment laws, there is very little but a friendly rivalry between the two traditions. This is your dream NI, right?

Will Unionism ever reach out and say 'we're sorry, we made a balls of this, we pandered to hateful lunatics like Ian Paisley instead of ostracising them, we made a culture out of rubbing your noses in it and that was wrong'. Just how many chances do Unionists need to make the north work?

I don't think Unionism is capable of it. Unionism is its own worst enemy as we can see with the soon-to-be Irish Sea border. This is why the north is a failed entity, all that's happening here is the long goodbye.

I’m sorry, we made a balls of this, we pandered to hateful lunatics like Ian Paisley instead of ostracising them, we made a culture out of rubbing your noses in it and that was wrong'.

We reacted to republicans wanting to eliminate us and the very existence of our country and that was wrong. We could have done things better

We grew up and got more confident in the mid 80s but you kept killing us. You stopped killing us in the 90s but you continued burning and attacking our schools, churches and homes

Things are much better now and we head into the future with confidence as many past nationalists throw their weight behind OWC.
Onwards and upwards.

But I am sorry we made some wrong decisions in very difficult circumstances. I am sorry for any discrimination against Catholics - it was wrong.
I am sorry we did not learn sooner that the future of OWC is dependent on building community and treating each other with respect. But we are there now.

Over to you!

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

We reacted to republicans wanting to eliminate us and the very existence of our country and that was wrong.

DC the Troubles was a failure of Unionists, Nationalists, British and Irish, a failure of humanity nobody should be proud of. I'm speaking to the first 50 years of NI. The first 50 years of NI was solely the failure of Unionism.

Things are much better now and we head into the future with confidence as many past nationalists throw their weight behind OWC.

I don't know where you're getting this 'past nationalists' thing from but I don't know anything about it.

But I am sorry we made some wrong decisions in very difficult circumstances. I am sorry for any discrimination against Catholics - it was wrong. I am sorry we did not learn sooner that the future of OWC is dependent on building community and treating each other with respect.

You're an individual DC, why is this narrative absent from Unionist politics?

But we are there now.

I admire your optimism but I think that ship has sailed. Unionists were still spitefully cutting funding for and mocking the Irish language in Stormont until very recently.

markodaly

downcow wrote: »

What do you class as an integrated school?
This is an important question
My nearest ‘officially integrated’ school has one Protestant family attending. My nearest state post primary school hundreds of Catholics attending - probably 30%.
Which school would you class as integrated?

More and more Catholics are attending state schools. RC schools are almost exclusively catholic. ‘Officially integrated’ schools are making little impact.
The biggest challenge is that localities are often not integrated thereby making truly integrated education impossible.

But I completely agree that we need kids educated together. By far and away the greatest block to that are the RC church and nationalist community for continuing to send their kids to segregated education

To echo the sentiment, the continued policy to segregate children in education is a disgrace. 20+ years on from the GFA NI still continues down this path and both the main Unionist party (DUP) and Nationalist party (SF) are to blame for this.

Both want to divide NI among sectarian lines and continue the Orange/Green Balkanisation of Ulster.

downcow

markodaly wrote: »

To echo the sentiment, the continued policy to segregate children in education is a disgrace. 20+ years on from the GFA NI still continues down this path and both the main Unionist party (DUP) and Nationalist party (SF) are to blame for this.

Both want to divide NI among sectarian lines and continue the Orange/Green Balkanisation of Ulster.

I agree with a lot of what you say but I don’t think you can heap the blame for segregated education on either the DUP or SF
Firstly, it was even stronger when SDLP & UUUP were in power.
If any party is to be singled out then it must be the RC church.
Whilst there are a couple of (Protestant) free p schools I would guess their entire population would be well under 200 so not relevant.
Practically every Protestant in ni attends state schools along with a significant and growing number of RCs.
The RC church has maintained a separate education system and seem almost totally to blame. Of course RC parents must also take responsibility, although they did come under significant, well documented, coercion from their church

So I have to stick up for the shinners on this one

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

DC the Troubles was a failure of Unionists, Nationalists, British and Irish, a failure of humanity nobody should be proud of. I'm speaking to the first 50 years of NI. The first 50 years of NI was solely the failure of Unionism.

Not that simple. What happened was inevitable when a significant number of Catholics were agitating against the state and determined to manage its downfall. Suspicious would obviously grow.
It was a vicious circle which has thankfully been fairly well broken.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

What happened was inevitable when a significant number of Catholics were agitating against the state and determined to manage its downfall.

They'd every right to agitate against the state be they Catholic or otherwise. The state was sectarian and discriminatory.

The vast majority were agitating for civil rights and had Unionists not messed that up then we might not have had the rise of Republicanism.

As I've written previously, Unionism is incapable of self-reflection and taking responsibility for its failures.