Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

Sunny Disposition

Again the fact an Irish language act is so problematic should show everyone what a failure partition has been. Even that can’t be agreed 100 years on! The level of division is incredible and every sort of a thing seen as good for one half of the community is seen as a defeat for the other half.
Surely it can’t go on as it is with a Catholic majority, who wouldn’t necessarily see keeping the status quo as an achievement.

FrancieBrady

Apparently business at the executive was held up for a long while last night as the DUP lost their s*** at the words 'the north of Ireland' in a document.(remind you of some of the twisting on here?) They also proposed marching British troops through Belfast as part of the centenary 'celebrations'.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Here’s the mask slipping again.

What mask is slipping about pointing out that the biggest & most attractive visitor attraction in Belfast, (and probably NI) was developed by an Irish company HQed in Dublin?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You really need to get over your hatred of OWC.
Just sit yourself down with a coffee and as why you and lonely planet taken opposite positions. Maybe lonely planet is allowing themselves to be prejudiced by their bigotry?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/travel/belfast-causeway-coast-lonely-planet-best-destination-2018-a3666771.html%3famp

Congratulations DC, its a great achievement for NI and I understand how proud you feel as the southern part of the island has got loads of those Lonely Planet Awards.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

What mask is slipping about pointing out that the biggest & most attractive visitor attraction in Belfast, (and probably NI) was developed by an Irish company HQed in Dublin?

I am not even going to bother to get back to get the exact, but you said something along the lines of -
the Titanic building had a English person on the board that built it so as not get burnt down by loyalists.

It doesn't even bear comment from me

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I am not even going to bother to get back to get the exact, but you said something along the lines of -
the Titanic building had a English person on the board that built it so as not get burnt down by loyalists.

It doesn't even bear comment from me

Not just any English person, Prince Charles step son.

You really don't think loyalists wouldn't want to object, destroy and try and stop a company from the Republic taking over such an iconic part of unionism (H & W) and of Belfast?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Not just any English person, Prince Charles step son.

You really don't think loyalists wouldn't want to object, destroy and try and stop a company from the Republic taking over such an iconic part of unionism (H & W) and of Belfast?

You are living in a strange sectarian wee world, while the prods in east Belfast are drinking Buckfast and Guiness lol

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You are living in a strange sectarian wee world, while the prods in east Belfast are drinking Buckfast and Guiness lol

I don't think I'm in the strange world when you look at these photos of a bonfire in East Belfast. I know its normal to you DC, but we down here are a bit more caring of our property and wouldn't want it to go up in smoke.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fire-crews-protect-belfast-homes-from-major-bonfire-1.2282325?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Ffire-crews-protect-belfast-homes-from-major-bonfire-1.2282325

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

Not just any English person, Prince Charles step son.

You really don't think loyalists wouldn't want to object, destroy and try and stop a company from the Republic taking over such an iconic part of unionism (H & W) and of Belfast?

You need to check your facts before you post jm08.H&W is owned by a British company (infrastrata).Check it yourself whilst having a pint of Guinness(putting a few more quid in British pockets)

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

I don't think I'm in the strange world when you look at these photos of a bonfire in East Belfast. I know its normal to you DC, but we down here are a bit more caring of our property and wouldn't want it to go up in smoke.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fire-crews-protect-belfast-homes-from-major-bonfire-1.2282325?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Ffire-crews-protect-belfast-homes-from-major-bonfire-1.2282325

Jmo8. You need to work on your prejudice.
I could posts of murders in Dublin and then say - look it’s not safe in Dublin.

You just hate owc

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

You need to check your facts before you post jm08.H&W is owned by a British company (infrastrata).Check it yourself whilst having a pint of Guinness(putting a few more quid in British pockets)

I should have said Harcourt Developments took over the 180 acre site of the Harland and Wolff shipyard and turned it into a world class visitor attraction.


Meanwhile, Haarland is much diminished to what it was originally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_Belfast


https://www.ft.com/content/b751bcda-b85c-11e9-8a88-aa6628ac896c

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Jmo8. You need to work on your prejudice.
I could posts of murders in Dublin and then say - look it’s not safe in Dublin.

You just hate owc

First of all I wasn't talking about murders, more so about the safety of property v. celebrating one's 'culture' with monster bonfires.



But now that you mention murders, Belfast is No. 7 in the Top 10 European cities with worst homicide rate according to a UN Report (2019).

Belfast, the capital and largest city in Northern Ireland, has a murder rate of 2.4 per 100,000, with a population of about 300,000. A study published in the Irish Times found that the crime rate in Ireland is only 60 percent that of Northern Ireland. The study found that crime in Northern Ireland had increased tenfold over the crime rate of 1945.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/top-10-deadliest-european-cities

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

I should have said Harcourt Developments took over the 180 acre site of the Harland and Wolff shipyard and turned it into a world class visitor attraction.


Meanwhile, Haarland is much diminished to what it was originally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_Belfast


https://www.ft.com/content/b751bcda-b85c-11e9-8a88-aa6628ac896c

Judging by the increasing naval activity at Cammell Lairds here in Birkenhead and the owners of H&W buying a ship builders in England which will be named H&W Appledore there is plenty of work making sure the navy is ready for the looming fishing grounds wars

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

First of all I wasn't talking about murders, more so about the safety of property v. celebrating one's 'culture' with monster bonfires.



But now that you mention murders, Belfast is No. 7 in the Top 10 European cities with worst homicide rate according to a UN Report (2019).





https://www.foxnews.com/world/top-10-deadliest-european-cities

According to this link it's the Republic where the most vicious gangsters are and they're trying to move into NI.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/10/police-fear-gangland-feud-from-irish-republic-now-being-fought-in-belfast

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

Judging by the increasing naval activity at Cammell Lairds here in Birkenhead and the owners of H&W buying a ship builders in England which will be named H&W Appledore there is plenty of work making sure the navy is ready for the looming fishing grounds wars

That does nothing for the H&W workers in Belfast.

https://uk.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVAR35XMZ

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

According to this link it's the Republic where the most vicious gangsters are and they're trying to move into NI.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/10/police-fear-gangland-feud-from-irish-republic-now-being-fought-in-belfast

Its a gangland feud. Kinahan v. the Hutch. I think they have killed 18 people who are either family members or involved in crime. One or two people have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I think in general there won't be too many Irish people upset if the two families wipe each other out.


According to that UN Report - the UK & NI come No. 17 in worst places for crime. Ireland is No. 39 (4th safest place in European region)! And of course Belfast comes no. 7 in the unsafest cities in Europe. Not good for tourism for Fox News desciminating this kind of information to Ireland best tourism market. The PSNI need to pull its socks up before the rest of Ireland is tarnished with Belfast's image in the US.

https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Crime-statistics/International_Statistics_on_Crime_and_Justice.pdf

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

That does nothing for the H&W workers in Belfast.

https://uk.reuters.com/video/watch/idOVAR35XMZ

That is from summer last year.This is a more up to date state of play which shows H&W are part of a UK consortium building five new warships for the Royal navy.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/northern-ireland/lifeline-for-harland-and-wolff-shipyard-as-consortium-secures-125bn-contract-for-five-royal-navy-frigates-38491312.html

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

That is from summer last year.This is a more up to date state of play which shows H&W are part of a UK consortium building five new warships for the Royal navy.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/northern-ireland/lifeline-for-harland-and-wolff-shipyard-as-consortium-secures-125bn-contract-for-five-royal-navy-frigates-38491312.html

120 jobs saved which is great. Its still a far cry from the 15,000 employed in the 70s. I think the new Titanic Museum and Quarter will do a lot more for Belfast's economy.

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

120 jobs saved which is great. Its still a far cry from the 15,000 employed in the 70s. I think the new Titanic Museum and Quarter will do a lot more for Belfast's economy.

Then that`s a win win for everyone is`nt it?And that old saying:`great oaks from little acorns grow`, Springs to mind!

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

First of all I wasn't talking about murders, more so about the safety of property v. celebrating one's 'culture' with monster bonfires.



But now that you mention murders, Belfast is No. 7 in the Top 10 European cities with worst homicide rate according to a UN Report (2019).





https://www.foxnews.com/world/top-10-deadliest-european-cities

Several of Our most recent murders have been to do with a Dublin gang feud and happened to take place in Belfast streets

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Several of Our most recent murders have been to do with a Dublin gang feud and happened to take place in Belfast streets

Quite a few more are to do with Belfast's own gangs/pseudo-paramilitaries drug dealing activities, Downcow, as you well know.

If no one involved with a Dublin feud set foot in Belfast, it wouldn't move it outside the top 10 on that list.

I like Belfast, and I lived there for years, but let's not try and make a silk purse out of a sow's ear about it.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Quite a few more are to do with Belfast's own gangs/pseudo-paramilitaries drug dealing activities, Downcow, as you well know.

If no one involved with a Dublin feud set foot in Belfast, it wouldn't move it outside the top 10 on that list.

I like Belfast, and I lived there for years, but let's not try and make a silk purse out of a sow's ear about it.

Well let’s be adult with each other then.

If you remove the gangland/paramilitary/ira type stuff, which are in the main internal stuff in which they kill each other, which city would you honestly feel safest walking in at night Belfast or Dublin. Honestly now.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Well let’s be adult with each other then.

If you remove the gangland/paramilitary/ira type stuff, which are in the main internal stuff in which they kill each other, which city would you honestly feel safest walking in at night Belfast or Dublin. Honestly now.

It's a bit of a ridiculous question, Downcow. If you take out the reason for the city being more dangerous, of course the city will no longer be more dangerous.

If you took the crime and gang warfare out of Harlem, would you feel safer walking there at night or through East Belfast?

Being really frank, I've walked through Belfast city centre manys a night, and through Dublin city centre manys a night and never felt particularly unsafe in either. I wouldn't fancy walking through Darndale late at night, but nor would I fancy walking through Tigers Bay, most of the Upper Newtownards Road or the Ardoyne late at night.

The simple fact is that right now, all factors considered, you're more likely to be killed in Belfast. Trying to cherry pick out some crimes in one area and excuse crimes in another area is such blatant misuse of statistics that it can be discounted out of hand as pure faulty logic. (To be clear, I mean excusing in the number counting sense, not in the moral sense. I'm not suggesting you think the crimes themselves are ok).

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Well let’s be adult with each other then.

If you remove the gangland/paramilitary/ira type stuff, which are in the main internal stuff in which they kill each other, which city would you honestly feel safest walking in at night Belfast or Dublin. Honestly now.

I'd feel safest in Dublin because I'm familiar with it. Similarly you might feel safer in Belfast because you know the place.


How safe would I be if I ended up on the Sandry Row wearing a ROI Shirt? (Or likewise, someone on the Falls Road wearing a Rangers Jersey?)


Oh, and by the way, you can't just take out certain types of crimes because you think they are not relevant!

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Do you not feel objections to Irish language signage are petty? Do you feel they're valid objections?

Do you feel your Britishness is diluted by seeing words like "Torra fy Ngwallt yn Hir" or "Yr Atal Genhedlaeth" about the place?

Do you think Northern Ireland has been a failure for the last century?

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You haven't really answered what I asked. Everyone can have an opinion alright, but you know what they say about opinons and arseh0les...

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RobMc59 wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and if there are people with concerns regarding Irish language signage that must be recognised.

What if their concerns are OTT and really unfounded? What if they incorrectly conflate an ancient language with some political imposition?

Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that you think DC's concerns have validity?

I don`t feel threatened by Welsh signage or song lyrics.

Can you honestly tell me you can see how someone like DC can be "threatened" by an ancient language, language that gave him his username in fact?

Regarding Irish language,I enjoy light hearted Irish songs like `an focal eile`.

A novelty song by Richie Kavanagh is what you're diluting the Irish language down to?

And sometimes I wonder if you're a serious poster...

I know what an `each uisge` is in Scottish folklore

Probably best to label that as Celtic mythology really. You're in a for a shock one day when you realise how intertwined the Scots and Irish are culturally.

I believe original languages should be encouraged but not forced on people.

Can you show me where language is forced on people?

Of course now, I'm not talking about how English was forced upon the people of Ireland. No, no, I wouldn't bring that up.

But, yes, please tell me how a language is being forced upon people anywhere in Ireland.

NI is`nt a failure imo

Explain how it is successful?

, although I`m reluctant to make critical comparisons

I am shocked!!!

(I think Ireland is a great place

Aye

North and South)

A bit redundant that eh?

but if I had to I`d say Belfast has outstripped Dublin as the `go to` place on the Island of Ireland now

Has it now? That's news to most I would wager.

and is viewed(here in England, anyway)as a vibrant,cosmopolitan,successful city.

Yeah, I'm just gonna park that one there anyway... there's enough to be dealing with above.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Impressive.There`s a myriad of UK companies who have invested or own brands in Ireland.Diagio being one who own Guinness and Bailey`s but I doubt they would want to rock the boat and I imagine Harcourt investments would`nt want to either and long may it continue.

Good god you have an insufferable mindset.

BonnieSituation

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

That's it in a nutshell.

I can remember when you crossed the border the roads got better. Except now it's the other way around.


The difference used to be West/East Germany.

But it's now North/South Korea or USA/Mexico.

Ireland couldn't keep NI on life support long term.

But with a dowry from the UK, EU aid, Foreign Investment and weaning NI off state aid and into gainful employment it should be possible in the medium term. It would need some IDA magic or something like the Free Trade Zone in Shannon (which the Chinese copied big time)


It'd doable especially when the alternative is that
The worse NI gets the more expensive it becomes.

Why do people think that NI would continue as it is in a UI?

It would be an integral part of the Irish economy. It would no longer be an economic backwater.

BonnieSituation

markodaly wrote: »

So again, how do you proposed we should have done that?

Send people you disagree with off to 're-education' camps?
Manditory history lessons every Saturday morning?
Some 'good citizen' test to be taken every year, with people not up to the mark publicly excoriated from the nearest church pulpit?

In fairness, the Free State did very well in locking up people, sure per captia we had one of the most incarcerated population in Europe, right up there with Stalins Russia, but unfortunately for women and other 'undesirables' they were the victims.

What are you on about?

How could anyone have such an aggressive pro-union post-colonial mindset in 2020?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie you need to get better at facing realities and asking yourself why.

For someone who objects to Irish so much, it's a shame you butcher English as much as you do.

Care to enlighten us as to what the hell that means?

I recognise that a number of bitter republicans on both sides of the border hate any display of identity from my community.

I don't think you do. Triumphalism is what your "displays of identity" devolve into and it's usually where it's not wanted

They are just bigots.

I agree. Belligerent Unionists really are bigoted and have no place in the future of Ireland.

But I need to recognise that a much greater number of moderate nationalists have struggles with certain elements of my community’s displays.

Like your triumphalist displays?

I could just say ‘belligerent intolerant Irish nationalism, and that would require no self examination and would just blame the other.

So nationalists should know their betters and continue to bite their tongues as they have done?

I am pretty sure it’s not because ordinary nationalists dislike certain colours or don’t like flute music or to see people enjoying themselves. I can’t be benign if so many people have a problem so we need to find a way not to enable offence.

I'd say it's because they don't understand how a supposed culture needs to be so triumphalist and negative and display only differentiation between themselves and their neighbours.

No you need to do the same around Irish language.

You need to explain how the Irish language is triumphalist and offensive? Please.

You need to ask yourself why every single unionist party (wee and big, moderate and extreme) and every unionists politician are completely opposed to an Irish language act

I don't, they need to tell us. They use it as an anti-Republican proxy.

You still haven't told us your objections, months into this argument/debate.

and Irish road signs (at this time).

Explain where those road signs are being "forced" upon your sensitive souls?

The vast majority of these same people are fully supportive of the Irish language receiving 10 times plus support of any other second language in ni, supportive of Irish busaries, radio programmes, fleadhs, etc.

Oh thanks. I'm glad we can go cap in hand to the Big House to get our money to support our native language. Jesus.

You need to ask yourselves what part certain elements of nationalism has played in creating this situation around road signs and an Act.

How about you tell me instead? Cos you're talking through your hoop here tbh.

......or you can say just unionist belligerence.

Well, that's exactly what it is though?

I know unionists who say exactly that ie ‘nationalist belligerence’ because you oppose orange marches.

Poor misunderstood orangemen again.


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Can you explain how Northern Ireland has been a success please?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Not at all. I couldn’t care less what you write on your signs. I was simply asking why Roi put Derry on their road signs and uk put the official name.
Bonnie want evidence of ROI taking sides in ni issues. Then she said she needed something current. So I gave her this example.
I actually have a wee smile to myself when I see ROI demonstrating so publicly that the can’t tolerate any reference to uk.
It’s all a help in keeping northerners reminded that their would be no equality in a UI.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Please point exactly to the post where I sought "evidence of the ROI taking sides in NI issues".

Thank you.

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I'm still waiting on you to point out this post please.