Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Apparently business at the executive was held up for a long while last night as the DUP lost their s*** at the words 'the north of Ireland' in a document.(remind you of some of the twisting on here?) They also proposed marching British troops through Belfast as part of the centenary 'celebrations'.

Missed that. Any wee link?

BonnieSituation

jm08 wrote: »

Not just any English person, Prince Charles step son.

You really don't think loyalists wouldn't want to object, destroy and try and stop a company from the Republic taking over such an iconic part of unionism (H & W) and of Belfast?

Wait til he finds out about the time ESB bought NIE and the reaction that got...

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

According to this link it's the Republic where the most vicious gangsters are and they're trying to move into NI.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/10/police-fear-gangland-feud-from-irish-republic-now-being-fought-in-belfast

I mean, you didn't know what homelessness was until you came to Dublin, so no wonder you are getting worked up over that...

All you're seeing here is the All-Ireland economy in action. It's almost like the natural hinterland for NI is the place to the south of it. Imagine that...

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

It's a bit of a ridiculous question, Downcow. If you take out the reason for the city being more dangerous, of course the city will no longer be more dangerous.

If you took the crime and gang warfare out of Harlem, would you feel safer walking there at night or through East Belfast?

Being really frank, I've walked through Belfast city centre manys a night, and through Dublin city centre manys a night and never felt particularly unsafe in either. I wouldn't fancy walking through Darndale late at night, but nor would I fancy walking through Tigers Bay, most of the Upper Newtownards Road or the Ardoyne late at night.

The simple fact is that right now, all factors considered, you're more likely to be killed in Belfast. Trying to cherry pick out some crimes in one area and excuse crimes in another area is such blatant misuse of statistics that it can be discounted out of hand as pure faulty logic. (To be clear, I mean excusing in the number counting sense, not in the moral sense. I'm not suggesting you think the crimes themselves are ok).

It’s logical to me. The crimes where gangs are targeting each other are no significant risk to those not in gangs ie they are not random

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You need to explain how the Irish language is triumphalist

Explain where those road signs are being "forced" upon your sensitive souls?

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Can you explain how Northern Ireland has been a success please?

Bonnie it is very difficult to have a reasonable discussion with you!

In the area I live Irish language is heavily supported by government and council. Irish schools receive higher funding per pupil than any other. Council materials are all bilingual, heavily funded Irish language centre is most impressive building in my town which the local loyalist band helped fundraiser for. etc etc.

I don’t hear a single complaint from unionist community about any of this.

Every unionist I know though finds the road signage divisive and intimidatory.

It marks out territory in the same way as flags etc except it is permanent. And has become a win / lose situation.

You can pretend this is not the case or you can blame unionists for the situation but that is simply wearing blinkers and taking no responsibility.
This behaviour is damaging Irish language going forward. And creating opposition.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

It’s logical to me. The crimes where gangs are targeting each other are no significant risk to those not in gangs ie they are not random

So just like the Hutch/Kinahan related crime you were pointing out as a reason Dublin is horribly unsafe then?

This is what I mean about cherry picking and why it isn't logically sound. It would be a fair enough statement to say, "well the gang violence is primarily targeting people in gangs, and so as a random person on the street, it is much less likely to impact you". Where your logic falls down is trying to apply this standard in one case, but ignore it in the other. If you want to exclude the non-random gangs targeting eachother violence in Belfast, then obviously you have to exclude the non-random gangs targeting eachother in Dublin.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie it is very difficult to have a reasonable discussion with you!

In the area I live Irish language is heavily supported by government and council. Irish schools receive higher funding per pupil than any other. Council materials are all bilingual, heavily funded Irish language centre is most impressive building in my town which the local loyalist band helped fundraiser for. etc etc.

I don’t hear a single complaint from unionist community about any of this.

Every unionist I know though finds the road signage divisive and intimidatory.

It marks out territory in the same way as flags etc except it is permanent. And has become a win / lose situation.

You can pretend this is not the case or you can blame unionists for the situation but that is simply wearing blinkers and taking no responsibility.
This behaviour is damaging Irish language going forward. And creating opposition.

Trying to point out government/council support for the Irish language as if it is something your community directly had anything to do with is disingenuous. It certainly wouldn't be an honest position to take this as evidence for your community's support for the Irish language, particularly without pointing out the amount of times your community has tried to block funding for the language, or elected representatives such as Gregory Campbell's attitude towards the language.

I would love to hear more about the local Irish Language Centre and the work your local bands did to help fund it though. Do you have a link to it? This is WAY more significant than pointing out government/council support and ignoring the fact that Nationalist parties make up half of those and the government/council support is much more likely to have been initiated by them than a Unionist party.

On the territory marking point, to be fair the easy way to avoid that would be having dual language signs everywhere, obviously it can't be territory marking if it's the same everywhere, but you'd object to that too of course.

Your absolutist statements like saying, 'every Unionist you know' finds road signs intimidatory is either a straight up lie, exaggeration, or evidence of a very small and insular circle that you associate with.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I mean, you didn't know what homelessness was until you came to Dublin, so no wonder you are getting worked up over that...

All you're seeing here is the All-Ireland economy in action. It's almost like the natural hinterland for NI is the place to the south of it. Imagine that...

What on earth are you on about-who mentioned homelessness in Dublin?
And regarding your question(not to me admittedly)about language being seen as a threat/triumphalist,through no fault of their own, people sent to live in an Ireland which was part of the UK (in all but name)were British and still are British feel their way of life is being eroded..

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie it is very difficult to have a reasonable discussion with you!

In the area I live Irish language is heavily supported by government and council. Irish schools receive higher funding per pupil than any other. Council materials are all bilingual, heavily funded Irish language centre is most impressive building in my town which the local loyalist band helped fundraiser for. etc etc.

I don’t hear a single complaint from unionist community about any of this.

Every unionist I know though finds the road signage divisive and intimidatory.

It marks out territory in the same way as flags etc except it is permanent. And has become a win / lose situation.

You can pretend this is not the case or you can blame unionists for the situation but that is simply wearing blinkers and taking no responsibility.
This behaviour is damaging Irish language going forward. And creating opposition.

Come down and meet some Fernanagh unionists, they are living happily with Irish signs for years.
When you make victimhood statements like 'every unionist I know finds Irish signs divisive and intimidating' it is evident you only speak for belligerent unionists.
Complete and utter rubbish and anyone affected that way by an inanimate sign needs medical help and pity tbh.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

In the area I live Irish language is heavily supported by government and council. Irish schools receive higher funding per pupil than any other. Council materials are all bilingual, heavily funded Irish language centre is most impressive building in my town which the local loyalist band helped fundraiser for. etc etc.

Do you have a link as to how the funding works. I'd really be surprised if funding per pupil is greater, though it may work out that way because classes are smaller. This was one of the reasons why Gaelscoileanna were much in demand in the south initially. (As an aside, a friend of mine in a mixed marriage decided to bring their children up in the Church of Ireland rather than RC because of access to CofI schools and their smaller classes and better gov. funding. I think they call it positive discrimination!).

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Come down and meet some Fernanagh unionists, they are living happily with Irish signs for years.
When you make victimhood statements like 'every unionist I know finds Irish signs divisive and intimidating' it is evident you only speak for belligerent unionists.
Complete and utter rubbish and anyone affected that way by an inanimate sign needs medical help and pity tbh.

This what I have pointed out to you several tines. There is strong evidence that when a community is less than 20% it just keeps it head down and says everything is fine.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

This what I have pointed out to you several tines. There is strong evidence that when a community is less than 20% it just keeps it head down and says everything is fine.

So when a group complain about something, it's evidence that they don't like it......and when a group don't have any complaints about something, it's evidence that they're only not complaining because there aren't enough of them to complain?!

I'd love to see you apply the same logic to the marching season and argue that it should all be stopped too?

Also

I would love to hear more about the local Irish Language Centre and the work your local bands did to help fund it though. Do you have a link to it?

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I would love to hear more about the local Irish Language Centre and the work your local bands did to help fund it though. Do you have a link to it? This is WAY more significant than pointing out government/council support and ignoring the fact that Nationalist parties make up half of those and the government/council support is much more likely to have been initiated by them than a Unionist party.

Local Irish language group secured significant funding (6 figures) to convert a rented RC church building into Irish language and music centre. A requirement of the funding was that it was a croscommunity project.
They approached the local loyalist band telling them they could secure new instruments for them if the joined them on an application. The band said yes and ,silly enough, left them to it
Application was successful and Irish group got £500,000 building and band got three accordions lol (that’ll teach them lol)

I don’t have a link but I was close to this and did see the application with my own eyes. I don’t have a link but if you are accusing me of making it up then I will find evidence but if I go to that trouble then you would need to eat serious amounts of humble pie
The band also joined the Irish group in a few fundraising concerts to help them further

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

On the territory marking point, to be fair the easy way to avoid that would be having dual language signs everywhere, obviously it can't be territory marking if it's the same everywhere, but you'd object to that too of course.
.

Exactly the same with union flags etc. That’s why I compare these issues so often

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Local Irish language group secured significant funding (6 figures) to convert a rented RC church building into Irish language and music centre. A requirement of the funding was that it was a croscommunity project.
They approached the local loyalist band telling them they could secure new instruments for them if the joined them on an application. The band said yes and ,silly enough, left them to it
Application was successful and Irish group got £500,000 building and band got three accordions lol (that’ll teach them lol)

I don’t have a link but I was close to this and did see the application with my own eyes. I don’t have a link but if you are accusing me of making it up then I will find evidence but if I go to that trouble then you would need to eat serious amounts of humble pie
The band also joined the Irish group in a few fundraising concerts to help them further

Humble pie, Downcow?! I asked you a question about what in your initial description looked like a great cross community project.....but which you're now describing as those pesky taigs, 'tricking' your band into something and screwing them over. Doesn't sound quite like the wholesome project you initially hinted at, certainly doesn't read like a, 'goodness of their hearts' attempt to help.

If the local Loyalist band were screwed over so badly, why did they come back to do further fundraising with them?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

A requirement of the funding was that it was a croscommunity project.

I have little doubt that Unionists are as welcome as anyone else in your local Irish language centre - the fact you exclude yourselves from your own heritage is regrettable.

It's a shame that Unionists politicised the Irish Language by means of spiteful repression of their neighbours' culture followed by crying about it when they try to have it reinstated to its rightful visibility.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This what I have pointed out to you several tines. There is strong evidence that when a community is less than 20% it just keeps it head down and says everything is fine.

No downcow no!
What it is is evidence od what I have been saying all along.
There are two types of unionist, the moderate, non bigoted one and the intolerant belligerent one.
One of them is a dying breed.

Lucy8080

God save the Queen,God Bless the Pope,
With your Harps and Lambeg Drums,
As you live in despair and dying hope,
In the Falls and Shankhill slums

Let's pray to God, that Taig and Prod,
May worship,each,alone
Remember Henry Joy (Protestant) Bob Emmet(Protestant) and Wolfe Tone (Protestant).

Let's say goodbye,my friends at last,
To bigotry and hate
Our future has always been the past
No Stormont or Freestate
Too long we've been divided friends
Too long we've fought our own

Remember Henry Joy (Protestant), Bob Emmet (Protestant) and Wolfe Tone(Protestant). - Dominic Behan.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Humble pie, Downcow?! I asked you a question about what in your initial description looked like a great cross community project.....but which you're now describing as those pesky taigs, 'tricking' your band into something and screwing them over. Doesn't sound quite like the wholesome project you initially hinted at, certainly doesn't read like a, 'goodness of their hearts' attempt to help.

If the local Loyalist band were screwed over so badly, why did they come back to do further fundraising with them?

I didn’t say the felt screwed over.
They did not want to refuse an approach from their Irish language neighbours as that may have been misread and not helped community relations.
It sounds like you think they were screwed over?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I have little doubt that Unionists are as welcome as anyone else in your local Irish language centre - the fact you exclude yourselves from your own heritage is regrettable.

It's a shame that Unionists politicised the Irish Language by means of spiteful repression of their neighbours' culture followed by crying about it when they try to have it reinstated to its rightful visibility.

You guys are either trying to mislead or you are naive by implying that Irish language in ni is somehow benign and not marking territory.
The facts are clear for everyone to see.
Just last week the alliance party and the greens joined with every single unionist on Belfast city council to block an attempt by Sinn Fein to massively increase Irish signage in Belfast.
Why do you think every single moderate joined with the unionists if it’s not a divisive issue?
Unfortunately militant republicans have seriously damaged Irish language in ni

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No downcow no!
What it is is evidence od what I have been saying all along.
There are two types of unionist, the moderate, non bigoted one and the intolerant belligerent one.
One of them is a dying breed.

Re my last post. Are you suggesting the Greens, Alliance party and every single unionist party are belligerent unionists? That doesn’t have credibility

It’s your go to position. If you are losing the argument the paint the posters as belligerent

Anyhow this has little to do with the topic

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I didn’t say the felt screwed over.
They did not want to refuse an approach from their Irish language neighbours as that may have been misread and not helped community relations.
It sounds like you think they were screwed over?

I'm purely basing it off your language your previous post, Downcow. I've never even heard of this place. You led with, 'silly enough' followed by, 'that'll teach them'. Not the language someone would use for a mutually beneficial arrangement. Further to that, now instead of doing it to help fellow members of their local community, you're suggesting they only did it because they were afraid of being called out.

This wonderful gesture is looking more and more suspect as time goes on.

downcow wrote: »

You guys are either trying to mislead or you are naive by implying that Irish language in ni is somehow benign and not marking territory.
The facts are clear for everyone to see.
Just last week the alliance party and the greens joined with every single unionist on Belfast city council to block an attempt by Sinn Fein to massively increase Irish signage in Belfast.
Why do you think every single moderate joined with the unionists if it’s not a divisive issue?
Unfortunately militant republicans have seriously damaged Irish language in ni

A ridiculous misrepresentation of what actually happened. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume it is just a case that you're unaware of the details rather than intentionally putting spin on it.

Alliance voted against the SF motion because they received legal advice that the proposed motion was not legally sound. It was absolutely nothing to do with Alliance supporting a position that the Irish language was divisive or territorial.

The Alliance Party then proposed an amendment, which would've also massively increased Irish Language signage in Belfast, which they felt was more legally robust and less likely to be challenged in court.

Alliance wanted to simplify everything to a 50%+1 majority in any community being enough to have Irish language signs placed.

The following is a quote from Naomi Long on the matter, who I suspect has a more clear understanding of the Alliance Party position than you;

"We support dual language street signs. We proposed a policy to make that easier to achieve.

We weren't waiting for unionist parties to do anything."

https://twitter.com/naomi_long/status/1302052223757750272?s=19

T'was actually SF who sh*t the bed on this one, and poor Naomi has had an awful lot of her time wasted in the last few days explaining the Alliance position on the language to people who have wilfully misinterpreted this vote in the same manner as you. Ironically the complaints echoing your interpretation on the matter are mostly coming from SF supporters. What strange bedfellows you have.

A further quote from Naomi;

"Irish street signs aren't seen by my party as wrong either?

We proposed making it easier to get them, but SF want a different approach that legal advice said was wide open to challenge. Rather than support an Alliance, they stuck to their model. That's what I mean by dogmatic."

https://twitter.com/naomi_long/status/1301550132450799617?s=19

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You guys are either trying to mislead or you are naive by implying that Irish language in ni is somehow benign and not marking territory.
The facts are clear for everyone to see.
Just last week the alliance party and the greens joined with every single unionist on Belfast city council to block an attempt by Sinn Fein to massively increase Irish signage in Belfast.
Why do you think every single moderate joined with the unionists if it’s not a divisive issue?
Unfortunately militant republicans have seriously damaged Irish language in ni

We know that unionism/loyalism is very anti-Irish. Every other party in NI is supports it, including Alliance. FFS, the new Alliance MP actually addressed the House of Commons in Irish in his maiden speech!


Fionn has already pointed out how your interpretation of what happened with the motion about bilingual signage in Belfast is wrong. I think it might be worthwhile explaining the current system as to how to get bilingual signage on a street in Belfast. This is what has to happen.


1. 33% of the electorate of a street have to sign a petition to begin a consultation process.
2. All residents who are on the electoral register are then sent a letter asking for their views on the proposal.

3. There are three options: 'yes', 'no', or 'don't care'.
4. 66% must support the move to erect the signs.

5. A 'don't care' or a failure to reply is interpreted as a negative by the council.


What Sinn Fein proposed was

1. 33% still required to sign a petition to begin a consultation process.
2. Consent of 50+1 required instead of more than 66%.
3. 'Don't cares' and non-respondents would be considered void votes rather than negative responses.


Alliance are proposing that

1. 10% would trigger consultation process.
2. 50% of all residents rather than 50% of all those who took part in Survey would be needed to sign petition.



The issue as to how non-respondents, 'Don't Cares' would be considered would leave the proposal open to a legal challenge and the reason why the Alliance objected to it.



So, Downcow what is your issue with this process?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Re my last post. Are you suggesting the Greens, Alliance party and every single unionist party are belligerent unionists? That doesn’t have credibility

It’s your go to position. If you are losing the argument the paint the posters as belligerent

Anyhow this has little to do with the topic

NO I am not.
I don't have a problem with objections to things, those parties are not foaming at the mouth in bigoted anger at the sight of an Irish sign. Wholly different to those who proclaim hurt at the sight of one or who cannot guarantee their peacefulness if something they pretend to support happens democratically.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Not at all. I couldn’t care less what you write on your signs. I was simply asking why Roi put Derry on their road signs and uk put the official name.
Bonnie want evidence of ROI taking sides in ni issues. Then she said she needed something current. So I gave her this example.
I actually have a wee smile to myself when I see ROI demonstrating so publicly that the can’t tolerate any reference to uk.
It’s all a help in keeping northerners reminded that their would be no equality in a UI.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Please point exactly to the post where I sought "evidence of the ROI taking sides in NI issues".

Thank you.

---

I'm still waiting on you to point out this post please.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Bonnie it is very difficult to have a reasonable discussion with you!

Says the guy who never answers any questions of him? Cmon now, you're not that naive surely?

What was wrong with my post that you can't answer the query I put to you?

In the area I live Irish language is heavily supported by government and council. Irish schools receive higher funding per pupil than any other. Council materials are all bilingual, heavily funded Irish language centre is most impressive building in my town which the local loyalist band helped fundraiser for. etc etc.

I don’t hear a single complaint from unionist community about any of this

.

Why would they complain? On what grounds is there an issue that doesn't just boil down to straight up bigotry.

Every unionist I know though finds the road signage divisive and intimidatory.

Really? You must have quite the enlightened circle. What about your Nationalists friends?

It marks out territory in the same way as flags etc except it is permanent. And has become a win / lose situation.

Only because you see it that way. Most normal people see them as roadsigns which inform and direct. The issue is with your siege mentality.

You can pretend this is not the case or you can blame unionists for the situation but that is simply wearing blinkers and taking no responsibility.

Are they similar to the blinkers that you have for the language?

This behaviour is damaging Irish language going forward. And creating opposition.

It really isn't. The Irish language "issue" wasn't a touchstone issue a decade ago. It's just the latest in a long line of "problems" you have with the concept of parity of esteem and equality.

Your username exists because of the Irish language. The irony is dripping.

---

Can you tell me how Northern Ireland has been a success?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Exactly the same with union flags etc. That’s why I compare these issues so often

This is ridiculous.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

This is ridiculous.

Guys you can jump up and down all you like in this. Every unionist party wee and big are public ally opposed to ILA. That’s partly because they know that it would be disastrous at the polls to support ILA. You are claiming lots of unionists (the non belligerent type) are in favour of ILA. Could we have some links please showing mainstream unionist support

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Guys you can jump up and down all you like in this. Every unionist party wee and big are public ally opposed to ILA. That’s partly because they know that it would be disastrous at the polls to support ILA. You are claiming lots of unionists (the non belligerent type) are in favour of ILA. Could we have some links please showing mainstream unionist support

I was talking about opposition, I was talking about belligerent opposition...the kind that cannot garuntee peacefulness and would deface or tear down signs in a strop.
Very few of those types in Fermanagh Tyrone or Derry.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I was talking about opposition, I was talking about belligerent opposition...the kind that cannot garuntee peacefulness and would deface or tear down signs in a strop.
Very few of those types in Fermanagh Tyrone or Derry.

So maybe explain why every unionist politician, moderate or extreme, in Fermanagh Tyrone or Derry are opposed to ILA and Irish roadsigns.
You guys have a major blind spot on this one. We used to have that blind spot on loyalist marches but we wised up.
Time for you guys to catch up.