Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Not at all. I couldn’t care less what you write on your signs. I was simply asking why Roi put Derry on their road signs and uk put the official name.
Bonnie want evidence of ROI taking sides in ni issues. Then she said she needed something current. So I gave her this example.
I actually have a wee smile to myself when I see ROI demonstrating so publicly that the can’t tolerate any reference to uk.
It’s all a help in keeping northerners reminded that their would be no equality in a UI.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Please point exactly to the post where I sought "evidence of the ROI taking sides in NI issues".

Thank you.

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@Downcow, I'm still waiting on you to point out this post please.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

How could the UK government justify removing benefits and entitlements from NI but continue in the rest of the UK?Surely that could be challenged in court?

I'd imagine it would be more likely to involve bringing NI expenditure more in line with the rest of the UK rather than removing benefits and entitlements from NI which are available elsewhere. A, 'well here's how much you have, balance your own books' approach rather than a, 'we're taking this away from you' one. Start with little things, like not giving the DUP a billion pound bung to prop up a Tory government actively damaging the NI electorate and go from there.

Not that I'm suggesting either is likely, just exploring the hypothetical.

Sunny Disposition

RobMc59 wrote: »

The problem is it has gone beyond helping a minority language because it is being used for political gain now.The fiercest advocates for it aren't generally moderate nationalists .Which triggers unease within the Unionist community as its viewed as an erosion of their way of life.

It has become a big issue for nationalists of all hues, and it wouldn’t have been but for the really badly timed obduracy of the DUP in particular. Yes, the ILA would mean small cultural changes, but these would more accurately reflect the actual population, not just the Protestant population.

But again the whole escapade shows how dysfunctional the North is.

BonnieSituation

jm08 wrote: »

You have not presented any evidence.

How can it have been erected without the permission of the local people. In Belfast at the moment you need 30% of people resident to petition for a vote. Then the vote needs to be 2/3rd for the change. If the population of the town is 90+ unionist, it would seem that they must have voted to have it and some people who can't accept democracy keep defacing the sign. Fair play to the Council for standing up to the local bullyboy loyalists.

You can try, but I'm not sure you get where I'm coming from. I believe in democracy and the system that if 50+1% votes for something, you have to go along with it. All voices are equal.

downcow wrote: »

Because you have yet to confirm that you will accept evidence.

The rules are very clear when debating, if you make a point or an assertion you should be able to back it up. Whther that evidence will be accepted or not is none of your concern BEFORE you send it to us.

I said “ I can evidence a neighbouring hamlet to me which is 90+% unionist which has a big sign erected in its midst in dual language. The locals continually paint it out and the Council continually replace it.”

"I can evidence..." as in "I know"? Strange use of words in this context don't you think.

Can you provide evidence. Because saying you know of it isn't evidentiary.

Is that reasonable evidence, if true, that these are erected where they are not wanted?

It is not evidence of what you say. Do you now what evidence is, especially in the context of this discussion?

doubting Thomas Bonnie wants a photo lol

Of course I do. you're the most slippery and disingenuous poster on Boards. You never proffer any evidence of any of your witterings nor answer any questions put to you.

So, please, if a photo isn't forthcoming, then maybe you could give us the name of this "hamlet"?

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

How could the UK government justify removing benefits and entitlements from NI but continue in the rest of the UK?Surely that could be challenged in court?

You serious?

Have you seen the madness the current junta have "justified"?

No one in Britain would give a shiny shíte if the handouts to the North were reduced.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Oh yes...the 'Unionist way of life' has been completely eroded in Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry etc.

What you mean Rob is that belligerent bigoted objection and cultural supremacy is and has been a 'way of life' for some Unionists.

I'm sure they will miss it but will they be worse off?

Languages and signage wouldn't threaten the union(it hasn't made a difference with Scotland or Wales),the tories have probably damaged the future of the union with brexit.

downcow

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

There is no choice between being a communist on 1,500 calories a day and a believer in democracy on a thousand.
- General Lucius Clay , American Occupation of Germany

Reducing disability payments with the move from DLA to PIP.
Reducing subvention.
Reducing the numbers of civil servants and other direct and indirect govt subsidised employees.

There's the option of not bailing out a major employer the next time one needs a bail out.

There's lots of ways of getting people to consider their position.

Do you think if it became evident that it would be financially preferable for Roi to join uk that your people would rush to want to join?

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It has become a big issue for nationalists of all hues, and it wouldn’t have been but for the really badly timed obduracy of the DUP in particular. Yes, the ILA would mean small cultural changes, but these would more accurately reflect the actual population, not just the Protestant population.

But again the whole escapade shows how dysfunctional the North is.

Why do some of your keep pretending it is a dup only agenda. This is all unionist parties and the dup recently went beyond what the moderate unionist parties felt reasonable and Arlene had to back track fast when she was told how it would impact them at the polls.
It is disingenuous to keep referring to the dup

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The rules are very clear when debating, if you make a point or an assertion you should be able to back it up. Whther that evidence will be accepted or not is none of your concern BEFORE you send it to us.



"I can evidence..." as in "I know"? Strange use of words in this context don't you think.

Can you provide evidence. Because saying you know of it isn't evidentiary.



It is not evidence of what you say. Do you now what evidence is, especially in the context of this discussion?



Of course I do. you're the most slippery and disingenuous poster on Boards. You never proffer any evidence of any of your witterings nor answer any questions put to you.

So, please, if a photo isn't forthcoming, then maybe you could give us the name of this "hamlet"?

Well let’s be really clear the bonnie and then I’ll go find you a photo. You are saying you don’t believe Irish roadsigns are put up in strongly unionist towns and villages without their consent?
No point me evidencing something for you to summersault and say you knew that was happening but just tried to hide it

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Do you think if it became evident that it would be financially viable for Roi to join uk that your people would rush to want to join?

People of PUL heritage are a minority now. If you polled the south on joining the UK I doubt you'd get more than 5/6%. In February Lucid Talk returned 49% for a UI with 51% for remaining in the UK (in the north).

February 2020 was before the pandemic and before Britain leaves the transition phase of EU membership. This time next year it could be 60% pro-UI 40% pro-UK.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Do you think if it became evident that it would be financially preferable for Roi to join uk that your people would rush to want to join?

What?

Why do you keep going back to this nonsense. There is zero push to rejoin the UK. It's not even a minority movement.

It's not comparable so give over bringing it up.

Answer what's asked of you for a change.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Well let’s be really clear the bonnie and then I’ll go find you a photo. You are saying you don’t believe Irish roadsigns are put up in strongly unionist towns and villages without their consent?
No point me evidencing something for you to summersault and say you knew that was happening but just tried to hide it

I just want to see the sign in question and then I will draw my own conclusions from further research to see if you're talking through your hoop.

So, show us the evidence of the sign in question please. We can discuss it further then.

"Evidencing something..." Christ above.

Capt'n Midnight

downcow wrote: »

Do you think if it became evident that it would be financially preferable for Roi to join uk that your people would rush to want to join?

Under what possible circumstances could it be financially preferable ??

Under what possible circumstances could the people of Ireland have more representation in Westminster than Dublin ??

BonnieSituation

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Under what possible circumstances could it be financially preferable ??

Under what possible circumstances could the people of Ireland have more representation in Westminster than Dublin ??

Capt'n don't go down this road. He's going to come back with some equivocation that this is exactly the same as asking Unionists to join a UI etc. It's not worth it. He can't even answer simple questions put to him as it is and he'l use your question to go off on a tangent and avoid scrutiny as it is.

Sunny Disposition

The ROI has many failings, but isn’t a failure by any means, has a boom bust economy for sure, but the most important thing is the social solidarity which we have seen around Covid for example. The big failing of NI is that even now a very large percentage of its population don’t want it to exist as a country. I wonder if it’s economy had succeeded would things have been different.

BonnieSituation

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The ROI has many failings, but isn’t a failure by any means, has a boom bust economy for sure, but the most important thing is the social solidarity which we have seen around Covid for example. The big failing of NI is that even now a very large percentage of its population don’t want it to exist as a country. I wonder if it’s economy had succeeded would things have been different.

You'd have to ask yourself if unionists weren't so bigoted in their creation of the Statelet would we even be here?

Anyway, hopefully it won't be around for much longer.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You'd have to ask yourself if unionists weren't so bigoted in their creation of the Statelet would we even be here?

Anyway, hopefully it won't be around for much longer.

You're very grumpy today bonnie al lad or have you been on the sauce.
You still haven't replied to my question when you mentioned homeless people in Dublin,what on earth were you on about?

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

You're very grumpy today bonnie al lad or have you been on the sauce.

Oh look, an ad hominem from Rob. Cop on.

Nothing grumpy about my posts. I think it's self-evident that there would have been no civil war if Nationalists weren't treated as second-class citizens. Then again, you don't see Irish Nationalism as a valid outlook due to your Unionist bias.

You still haven't replied to my question when you mentioned homeless people in Dublin,what on earth were you on about?

I haven't forgotten. Don't you worry.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Oh look, an ad hominem from Rob. Cop on.

Nothing grumpy about my posts. I think it's self-evident that there would have been no civil war if Nationalists weren't treated as second-class citizens. Then again, you don't see Irish Nationalism as a valid outlook due to your Unionist bias.



I haven't forgotten. Don't you worry.

I have no problem with Irish nationalism...In ROI.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

The things you point out are relevant but if you examine each in turn can you say NI lags behind?Take crime as one,it`s well know even here in England there are problems in Ireland-the Ballbriggan race wars are one example.I had never seen anyone begging in the street until i was on holiday in Waterford some time ago.To attempt to portray Ni as somehow a worse place is a fallacy propagated by disgruntled republicans who have had their noses put out.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I mean, you didn't know what homelessness was until you came to Dublin, so no wonder you are getting worked up over that...

All you're seeing here is the All-Ireland economy in action. It's almost like the natural hinterland for NI is the place to the south of it. Imagine that...

RobMc59 wrote: »

What on earth are you on about-who mentioned homelessness in Dublin?
And regarding your question(not to me admittedly)about language being seen as a threat/triumphalist,through no fault of their own, people sent to live in an Ireland which was part of the UK (in all but name)were British and still are British feel their way of life is being eroded..

There you go Rob. I may have conflated homelessness and beggars, But I mean, If you were to draw the Venn diagram...

So Waterford, Dublin, point stands, you were talking rubbish.

That should sate you now.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

I have no problem with Irish nationalism...In ROI.

But we're talking NI. Let's stick to the subject at hand.

You don't believe Irish Nationalism is a valid expression of identity, in NI.:rolleyes:

Jimbob1977

"Northern Ireland" should have been Antrim, North Down and North Armagh. Places that would have guaranteed 80-90% Unionist majority.

However, British felt that a few counties was unsustainable in the long term. Hence they collapsed the Boundary Commission and Northern Ireland remained as six counties.

Thus forcing South Armagh, South Down and Derry into a state the residents despised.

The British made a rod for their own back.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Because you have yet to confirm that you will accept evidence.
I said “ I can evidence a neighbouring hamlet to me which is 90+% unionist which has a big sign erected in its midst in dual language. The locals continually paint it out and the Council continually replace it.”

Is that reasonable evidence, if true, that these are erected where they are not wanted?

doubting Thomas Bonnie wants a photo lol

The evidence I need is of the process that was taken to erect these signs.
Was there a petition by local residents?
Was there a voted by local residents?
What was the vote for and against? (Percentage will do fine. Did 90% vote against bilingual signage but it was still installed)

BonnieSituation

jm08 wrote: »

The evidence I need is of the process that was taken to erect these signs.
Was there a petition by local residents?
Was there a voted by local residents?
What was the vote for and against? (Percentage will do fine. Did 90% vote against bilingual signage but it was still installed)

We don't even need all that. Just the name of the town in question will do. I and I'm sure others as well, don't mind doing the leg work.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

People of PUL heritage are a minority now. If you polled the south on joining the UK I doubt you'd get more than 5/6%. In February Lucid Talk returned 49% for a UI with 51% for remaining in the UK (in the north).

February 2020 was before the pandemic and before Britain leaves the transition phase of EU membership. This time next year it could be 60% pro-UI 40% pro-UK.

Try answering a question

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What?

Why do you keep going back to this nonsense. There is zero push to rejoin the UK. It's not even a minority movement.

It's not comparable so give over bringing it up.

Answer what's asked of you for a change.

Exactly please answer what’s asked.
The relevance of this question is that a number of people here are implying that the ni population will vote based on best financial outcome. I am asking would the people of your country do the same. Simple question really

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I just want to see the sign in question and then I will draw my own conclusions from further research to see if you're talking through your hoop.

So, show us the evidence of the sign in question please. We can discuss it further then.

"Evidencing something..." Christ above.

You need to answer the original question first. ie are you saying I am wrong when I point out that Irish signs are put up in unionist areas without their consent? That’s what you seemed to be saying.
Why will you never answer a question?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Exactly please answer what’s asked.
The relevance of this question is that a number of people here are implying that the ni population will vote based on best financial outcome. I am asking would the people of your country do the same. Simple question really

Why do you bother? You're becoming boring now. If you've no intention to engage then don't bother. This has nothing to do with the questions I've asked. This is your tangent that you've latched onto as predicted.

@Capt'n, see what happens when you give him an inch?

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You've been asked for the name of the town in question, at the very least, and you can't provide it so I honestly don't know what else you can ask of anyone else while we're still waiting on that piece of information.

So I think it would be best if you go off and figure that out.

We'll continue on the discussion then. Good boy.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Capt'n don't go down this road. He's going to come back with some equivocation that this is exactly the same as asking Unionists to join a UI etc. It's not worth it. He can't even answer simple questions put to him as it is and he'l use your question to go off on a tangent and avoid scrutiny as it is.

This is exactly the point of the question ably explained by my friend. So I guess you all understood it
In short, do you think the people of ni are somehow less loyal than the people of Roi ie will one follow the money while the other wouldn’t.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

You need to answer the original question first. ie are you saying I am wrong when I point out that Irish signs are put up in unionist areas without their consent? That’s what you seemed to be saying.
Why will you never answer a question?

I only engaged with you on this matter to find out the name of the town. I've no interest outside of that. Of course as predicted you've moved the goalposts.

Your posting style is pathetic.

What's the name of the "hamlet" that you referred to above?