Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am not sure what your point is. I told you a week ago that you can superimpose the political map and the covid map and they align exactly.
The chief medical officer has said privately to some politicians that the gaa have been a driver of covid , but he won’t dare say it publicly.

Do you disagree with his point???

The evidence is out there. Poots does a piece on radio ulster lunchtime yesterday and phone-ins from public saying they are nationalists but agree with the sense he is talking.

It is being said 'publicly'...on this very forum.

Was Poots so quick with his lies when the virus was mainly in Unionist areas at the start?
Does he have data to show who is infected in the Derry area?

No he doesn't...how could he? He is just doing what the DUP do, sectarianising it.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Do you disagree with his point???

Yes, he demonstrates perfectly that the north is a failure. The DUP are a gift to the argument for unification.

Remove British jurisdiction and this type of sectarian dimwit become irrelevant and those who want to make Ireland work for all of its people will step forward and make it happen.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Yes, he demonstrates perfectly that the north is a failure. The DUP are a gift to the argument for unification.

Remove British jurisdiction and this type of sectarian dimwit become irrelevant and those who want to make Ireland work for all of its people will step forward and make it happen.

That bit in bold is a Utopian fantasy.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

That bit in bold is a Utopian fantasy.

You would say that.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You would say that.

There is nothing to suggest otherwise.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think it's not unreasonable to view partition as allowing the worst aspects of each tradition to concentrate and consolidate power. Would the RCC have gotten away with what it did had a big block of unionists been sitting in the Dail? Doubtful. Likewise Protestants/Unionists wouldn't have had their one-party sectarian statelet in the north without the divide.

In both cases there was a lack of civil courage which is where the ultimate responsibility lies.

I don’t completely disagree with you that had republicans not have removed 26 counties and partitioned the island then things would have looked very different.
The bit you mid is that it wasn’t just the north that had a sectarian state or the south that the RCC ran rampant with its people in. I am not sure why you are implying that?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is being said 'publicly'...on this very forum.

Was Poots so quick with his lies when the virus was mainly in Unionist areas at the start?
Does he have data to show who is infected in the Derry area?

No he doesn't...how could he? He is just doing what the DUP do, sectarianising it.

Be honest. If there were counties in Roi that were majority unionist and they were by far the worst with covid. Had loyalist parades been continuing with bands celbrating winning trophies by all drinking out of the trophy etc etc. Would you not rightly feel the behaviour was a contribution to the local spikes. Would you not be frustrated if the chief med officer was saying it privately but not publicly?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Be honest. If there were counties in Roi that were majority unionist and they were by far the worst with covid. Had loyalist parades been continuing with bands celbrating winning trophies by all drinking out of the trophy etc etc. Would you not rightly feel the behaviour was a contribution to the local spikes. Would you not be frustrated if the chief med officer was saying it privately but not publicly?

Put down the porter.

Do you ever give your posts the once over before clicking "Post Reply"?

And if you do, do you feel a warm sense of achievement for yet again talking such pathetic nonsense?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Be honest. If there were counties in Roi that were majority unionist and they were by far the worst with covid. Had loyalist parades been continuing with bands celbrating winning trophies by all drinking out of the trophy etc etc. Would you not rightly feel the behaviour was a contribution to the local spikes. Would you not be frustrated if the chief med officer was saying it privately but not publicly?

The CMO here said privately that souhern Unionists cant get it because they are morally superior people. He did, a friend of a friend of a 3rd cousin twice removed of my wifes mother told me.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The CMO here said privately that souhern Unionists cant get it because they are morally superior people. He did, a friend of a friend of a 3rd cousin twice removed of my wifes mother told me.

Do you recognise that rates of covid are much much higher in nationalist areas than unionist areas?
......and I live in a nationalist area and everyone I have heard has it recently is nationalist, most with links straight back to gaa activity. Friends in gaa are deeply frustrated at their organisations clear link to the current difficulties. They openly state it to me.
Of course others have been reckless like Glentoran celebrations, but gaa are very embarrassing.

Now, who knows, this could grow immunity in nationalist areas and unionist areas could have difficult days ahead.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Do you recognise that rates of covid are much much higher in nationalist areas than unionist areas?
......and I live in a nationalist area and everyone I have heard has it recently is nationalist, most with links straight back to gaa activity. Friends in gaa are deeply frustrated at their organisations clear link to the current difficulties. They openly state it to me.
Of course others have been reckless like Glentoran celebrations, but gaa are very embarrassing.

Now, who knows, this could grow immunity in nationalist areas and unionist areas could have difficult days ahead.

Data is your friend here downcow...not what some friend told you.

Show us the data for Derry for instance how many of the approx 75% 'Nationalist' community have it and how many of the approx 25% Unionist community have it?

jh79

You can check the numbers by postcode but i've no idea if this would help.

Poots was right to criticise SF for holding a political rally during a pandemic but it's hard to believe he is genuine given in the same article he calls for less restrictions for funerals!

Beltby

Isn't it just as well this virus is unable to transmit between nationalists and unionists.:rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight

Here is a one sided view of the last 100 years.
https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/10/16/why-we-should-give-ourselves-easy-excuses-to-examine-the-first-100-years-of-northern-ireland/

It is very difficult for Nationalists to celebrate or even commemorate the last 100 years of Northern Ireland. Partition itself is seen as a great injustice conceded against the threat of force and imposed against the will of the majority of people in Ireland. Northern Ireland was a Home rule Parliament set up to assuage Unionist fears but which in the end ironically contributed to those fears which Unionists strived so much against becoming realities for the Nationalists who made up 33% of the population. The fifty years of Unionist dominated rule were nothing to be proud of. Gerrymandered electoral boundaries, housing discrimination in order to maintain Unionist power in majority Nationalist areas, the Special Powers Act, the Flags and Emblems Display Act, the B- Specials and discrimination in Government jobs.

Northern Ireland was borne out of violence every bit as savage and brutal as the recent conflict. The McMahon Murders, Altnaveigh, Weaver Street, Arnon Street, 1921 Belfast Bloody Sunday, Derry Riots, savage street confrontation and a Northern Offensive planned and armed by Michael Collins and Eoin O'Duffy. The birth of NI was not a smooth one. The infant years were traumatic and confused. The Boundary Commission debacle is one which caused untold heartache for border Nationalists, one which they never truly recovered. Let's not forget Tyrone, Fermanagh, Derry City and South Armagh had Catholic majorities and their councils were pledging allegiance to the Dail in some cases right up until mid 1923.

1972-1998 saw our society tear itself apart. A savage IRA campaign; brutalisation of the Nationalist community, death, destruction, mayhem. Intransigence, hatred. As communities we did horrible obscene acts to each other. Regardless of our own personal views regarding fault it is part of our history and a dark, bleak chapter in a divided and chequred history.

And yet amongst all this Northern Ireland produced some great writers, poets, actors and actresses, athletes and sportstars. People of whom we could all be proud. These were people who brought society together, we could appreciate their talents and their determination.

Northern Ireland has however seen turmoil since its inception- it has been 100 years of divided loyalties and distrust. I actually think the SDLP and SF should take part in the commemorations to put forward the Nationalist story. There must be a willingness to face the truth, the whole truth. The human truth for us all. The time for debate on the legitimacy of NI has gone and I would hope we could all be big and mature enough to face the truths and engage each other constructively and in a respectful way. It's a pity that won't happen.

Some history

The Belfast Shipyard Expulsions and Their Aftermath, 21st July 1920…

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Data is your friend here downcow...not what some friend told you.

Show us the data for Derry for instance how many of the approx 75% 'Nationalist' community have it and how many of the approx 25% Unionist community have it?

You can twist all you like. Something is happening in nationalist constituencies that is causing covid to be much higher than unionist constituencies. My guess, and the view of nationalist friends, is that the behaviour of the gaa is a significant factor. Not the exclusive factor, but an important addition.
What is your guess for the stats showing nationalist constituencies have a much greater covid problem at the minute.
Is it gods punishment for playing gaa. Or maybe loyalist are putting something in the water - the latest sectarian attack.

What’s your guess?

Five Eighth

downcow wrote: »

I don’t completely disagree with you that had republicans not have removed 26 counties and partitioned the island then things would have looked very different.
The bit you mid is that it wasn’t just the north that had a sectarian state or the south that the RCC ran rampant with its people in. I am not sure why you are implying that?

I'm beginning to suspect you're a wind-up merchant downcow and we just continuously take your bait. Suggesting that "...republicans removed the 26 counties and partitioned the island..." takes the Oscar for most inane comment.
No acknowledgement that the vast majority of this island's population were pro-independence, that the unionist population in the North-East of this island rejected the wishes of the majority, established a 100,000 strong militia and threatened violence to achieve their political aims. Surely, a wind-up.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You can twist all you like.

You can blather all the sectarian stuff you like. Show us the data downcow.

CBear1993

Ah downcow, the mosquito of boards.ie.

I thought someone would have swatted this disease carrying creature by now. Surely there’s a .co.uk forum more fitting for them to shout into their echo chamber. You’d really have to feel for individuals like this when their “wee country” and world is turned upside down in the coming years when they’re an even bigger minority in a one country island, than they are now already declining in the 6.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can blather all the sectarian stuff you like. Show us the data downcow.

Answer the question Francie.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Answer the question Francie.

When you present the data downcow, you'll get all the answers your wee heart desires. Until then keep your attempt to sectarianise to yourself.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

What’s your guess?

My guess was that Poots is a reflexively sectarian dimwit and the fact you ate it up reflects poorly on you.

Anyway Poots has been exposed as the sectarian ****-stirrer he is:

https://twitter.com/peterdonaghy/status/1317918641279651842?s=20

Not that it really matters but it appears there are more cases of COVID19 in places where there is a Catholic minority.

downcow

Five Eighth wrote: »

I'm beginning to suspect you're a wind-up merchant downcow and we just continuously take your bait. Suggesting that "...republicans removed the 26 counties and partitioned the island..." takes the Oscar for most inane comment.
No acknowledgement that the vast majority of this island's population were pro-independence, that the unionist population in the North-East of this island rejected the wishes of the majority, established a 100,000 strong militia and threatened violence to achieve their political aims. Surely, a wind-up.

My Irish history is not good but I learned on here recently that partition was entirely democratic.
The people of Ireland through their elected parliament agreed two things 1) Ireland should leave uk and 2) that the people of the six counties through their parliament should be allowed to decide whether they go with Ireland or uk.
They chose to stay in uk.

Is this correct or have I got it wrong?

Five Eighth

downcow wrote: »

My Irish history is not good but I learned on here recently that partition was entirely democratic.
The people of Ireland through their elected parliament agreed two things 1) Ireland should leave uk and 2) that the people of the six counties through their parliament should be allowed to decide whether they go with Ireland or uk.
They chose to stay in uk.

Is this correct or have I got it wrong?

I acknowledge that it is quite likely that a majority, including some Northern nationalists, would vote to remain within the United Kingdom in an independence referendum. My guess is that the Nationalists would do so because of economic considerations, in particular, the massive public sector that exits in the North. However, the above does not contradict the fact that the six county Northern Ireland state was created by the threat of violence. The unionist majority within that state was a contrived majority. The Free State was created to avoid the likelihood of civil war. Historical context is everything.

Lord Fairlord

downcow wrote: »

My Irish history is not good but I learned on here recently that partition was entirely democratic.
The people of Ireland through their elected parliament agreed two things 1) Ireland should leave uk and 2) that the people of the six counties through their parliament should be allowed to decide whether they go with Ireland or uk.
They chose to stay in uk.

Is this correct or have I got it wrong?

There isn't much choice when the threat of war is the other option.

James Brown

downcow wrote: »

My Irish history is not good but I learned on here recently that partition was entirely democratic.
The people of Ireland through their elected parliament agreed two things 1) Ireland should leave uk and 2) that the people of the six counties through their parliament should be allowed to decide whether they go with Ireland or uk.
They chose to stay in uk.

Is this correct or have I got it wrong?

Not how it worked. It was landed gentry and others who the British allowed represent a minority, but spoke for everybody, including those were never asked. We'd a civil war.
Then we'd the faux democracy created in the occupied territory. Again, not democratic for the inhabitants there either. There were not two separate jurisdictions before partition.

Nabber

Shame for NI, they are but a bargaining chip for Britain. Much like Scotland fear of the unknown keeps them in check.

Unified Ireland sounds nice, but the folks who push for it have very little to offer on how such a plan would work.
At least the killings have ended, if I was a resident in the north, I'd fear the province will become economically and educationally marginalised (if not already the case) in the UK and Ireland. Lets see what a no deal BReixt has in store for them.

Capt'n Midnight

Nabber wrote: »

Shame for NI, they are but a bargaining chip for Britain. Much like Scotland fear of the unknown keeps them in check.

The Tories can usually get about 8 more MP's from NI to support them than Labour can.

What a fool I was. I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into power.
- Edward Carson Dec 14, 1921

Unified Ireland sounds nice, but the folks who push for it have very little to offer on how such a plan would work.
At least the killings have ended, if I was a resident in the north, I'd fear the province will become economically and educationally marginalised (if not already the case) in the UK and Ireland. Lets see what a no deal BReixt has in store for them.

Provide jobs so the place and people don't need to depend on handouts. Which also solves the subvention cost.

Add infrastructure , motorways to Derry.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You could keep pretending the situation is muddy....or you could read the direct quotes I posted from Naomi Long herself, Downcow.

The simple, undoubted, not even slightly disputable fact of the matter is the Alliance Party proposed an amendment that would make it easier to have Irish signs in Belfast. No spin, no bullsh*t, actual facts.

That would be the same Naomi Long, who has said herself that she speaks some Irish, and would like to speak more, from the same Alliance Party which Stephen Farry is a member....that would be the Stephen Farry who's first words addressing the House of Commons as an MP were in Irish.....the Alliance Party who have repeatedly and openly stated they supported an Irish Language Act......this is the party you're trying to portray as against the language?


Catch yourself on.

As a tiny minority on this forum, many posters think the way to deal with unionists on here is to brow beat them and keep disagreeing often enough to undermine them.

See your post fionn (one of many from several posters) on this subject. ...and then note what the alliance party leader stated last night about the sf/sdlp request for Irish signs in Belfast (which I was told here was a very fair and reasonable system). Michael long has last night described it as ‘reckless’

downcow

CBear1993 wrote: »

Ah downcow, the mosquito of boards.ie.

I thought someone would have swatted this disease carrying creature by now. Surely there’s a .co.uk forum more fitting for them to shout into their echo chamber. You’d really have to feel for individuals like this when their “wee country” and world is turned upside down in the coming years when they’re an even bigger minority in a one country island, than they are now already declining in the 6.

....and thereby leaving you alone in your echo chamber lol.

You don’t need to feel for individuals like me. Seems I can’t lose. I love living in NI currently, and yet most on here are telling me things will be even better for me if there is ever a united island
So whether you believe me, that it will never happen, or you believe the republicans, that it will happen, will be wonderful and I’ll be respected and have influence. - what’s not to like about that!

Gwanoman

At the end of the day,

That half of the Population of the entity known as Northern Ireland does not share in, nor celebrate the main public holiday, the 12th of July and voting aside, don't see themselves as British would be a strong indicator that it has failed. They don't support the national football team. They don't connect with the "official" culture of Northern Ireland and have no support for the Army of the state either...

Some nationalists might stay in the union for their finances. But it does not make the state a success.