Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I have a good friend from South America. I will ask her tomorrow if she regards herself as an American and I’ll come back to you.

Remember you are asking her in a geographical context downcow. If you are off the islands called The Americas, there is no getting away from it. If you are talking about citizenship or identity then I can tell you now the answer will be No.

The Americas (also collectively called America)[4][5][6] is a landmass comprising the totality of North and South America.[7][8][9] The Americas make up most of the land in Earth's Western Hemisphere and comprise the New World.[4]

Five Eighth

downcow wrote: »

Why do republicans never answer questions?
I am not in the slightest offended.
I am asking a poster if he includes Gerry Adams in his ‘native Irish’ and if, so does he also include me? ...and before we get a cop out like eg he doesn’t know me, lets replace me with eg Rory mcillroy?

So. Any answers out there in fantasy land?

You asked me what being 'Native Irish' is and i provided you with a definition. I honestly don't know anything about the hereditary characteristics of Gerry Adams but, as i've noted already, all people in the six counties can define as they wish under the GFA.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Remember you are asking her in a geographical context downcow. If you are off the islands called The Americas, there is no getting away from it. If you are talking about citizenship or identity then I can tell you now the answer will be No.

Massive back paddle there Francie Don’t think I need to ask her now lol. So we can agree that I live on the geographical entity that is Ireland but I am definitely Northern Irish. My friend likewise re America and South American.
You would agree?

downcow

Five Eighth wrote: »

You asked me what being 'Native Irish' is and i provided you with a definition. I honestly don't know anything about the hereditary characteristics of Gerry Adams but, as i've noted already, all people in the six counties can define as they wish under the GFA.

You can duck and dive all you like. You said the native Irish in the six counties were discriminated against and were unfortunate to be there.
It’s a very simple question - who were the native Irish you were referring to. I have told you I was discriminated against by the Ira and many generations of my family have lived in Ireland. Is it people like me that you mean or do I not fit your definition because I am a unionist. ???
I’d love a straight answer

downcow

Another evening of masks slipping and stark hypocrisy emerging you couldn’t make it up

Five Eighth

downcow wrote: »

You can duck and dive all you like. You said the native Irish in the six counties were discriminated against and were unfortunate to be there.
It’s a very simple question - who were the native Irish you were referring to. I have told you I was discriminated against by the Ira and many generations of my family have lived in Ireland. Is it people like me that you mean or do I not fit your definition because I am a unionist. ???
I’d love a straight answer

It's not my definition - read the post again - "The Irish (Irish: Muintir na hÉireann or Na hÉireannaigh) are a nation and ethnic group native to the island of Ireland, who share a common Irish ancestry, identity and culture...."

Maybe you believe that you meet the criteria of "The Irish are a nation and ethnic group native to the island of Ireland who share a common Irish ancestry, identity and culture." If so, good luck to you.

It was David Trimble who said that Northern Ireland was "...a cold place for Catholics."

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Massive back paddle there Francie Don’t think I need to ask her now lol. So we can agree that I live on the geographical entity that is Ireland but I am definitely Northern Irish. My friend likewise re America and South American.
You would agree?

You are Irish, as northern Irish as I am.

You identify differently to me. It was never very complicated to begin with and I haven't backtracked a mm or inch.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Massive back paddle there Francie Don’t think I need to ask her now lol. So we can agree that I live on the geographical entity that is Ireland but I am definitely Northern Irish. My friend rlikewise re America and South American.
You would agree?

In the Americas you have Native Americans, Indigenous Americans, Latin Americans, South Americans, North Americans and Central Americans. The indiginous people all ccame from Asia and are related. Is your South American friend Indigenous or a Latino (European heritage?).

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

In the Americas you have Native Americans, Indigenous Americans, Latin Americans, South Americans, North Americans and Central Americans. The indiginous people all ccame from Asia and are related. Is your South American friend Indigenous or a Latino (European heritage?).

You wouldn’t insist that each refer to themselves as an American? Would you?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

If the Roi media, print or television talk about Scotland they call it Scotland, if they talk about wales they call it wales. So why when the talk about Northern Ireland s the default position ‘the north’?

What's it to you what a "foreign media" call anything?

I didn't think you read our papers or watched our channels or listened to our radio stations?

You're obsessed!

It's rather embarrassing.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What's it to you what a "foreign media" call anything?

I didn't think you read our papers or watched our channels or listened to our radio stations?

You're obsessed!

It's rather embarrassing.

Oh the irony of your embarrassment Bonnie. Look at the thread title and consider. lol

ittakestwo

So what is the argument now..... people from Ireland are not Irish?

downcow

ittakestwo wrote: »

So what is the argument now..... people from Ireland are not Irish?

No argument. Seems pretty clear to me. There is an international border between Dundalk and Newry. People are born Irish in Dundalk and are born british in Newry. That seems pretty factual and simple to me.
Those born in Newry can apply for an Irish passport thanks to a very generous agreement by the neighbouring country (Ireland) - I don’t think it is reciprocated for those born in Dundalk.
A growing number of those born in Northern Ireland from all communities are referring to themselves as Northern Irish (same as scottish who are born british).
...and I was saying it had similarity to people who may refer to themselves as South American but certainly are not American

downcow

The fitz posted this in another thread which may go a long way to answering this thread question.
The answer to this question will always depend on what failure looks like but this post demonstrates that the people (of all ages) living in ni think that Roi is a bigger failure (or lessor success) than ni Seems reasonable time measure against nearest neighbour.
https://imgur.com/ZgDcBV3

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You wouldn’t insist that each refer to themselves as an American? Would you?

I wouldn't insist on anything!

jm08

downcow wrote: »

No argument. Seems pretty clear to me. There is an international border between Dundalk and Newry. People are born Irish in Dundalk and are born british in Newry. That seems pretty factual and simple to me.

A bit too simple. Are you trying to say that a native Irish person (someone called say O'Neill) is not Irish, but British because some south African drew a line on the island of Ireland a 100 years ago?

Those born in Newry can apply for an Irish passport thanks to a very generous agreement by the neighbouring country (Ireland) - I don’t think it is reciprocated for those born in Dundalk.

Its no advantage to us to have a British passport with the common travel area. There is significant advantage to people from Northern Ireland having an Irish passport though (for example, in hostage situations in the Middle East).

A growing number of those born in Northern Ireland from all communities are referring to themselves as Northern Irish (same as scottish who are born british).

Bull****. I'd say the native Irish and British in Northern Ireland refer to themselves as Irish or British and that they are from Northern Ireland. Northern Irish isn't a nationality.

...and I was saying it had similarity to people who may refer to themselves as South American but certainly are not American

Are you trying to claim that the Incas from Peru are not Americans and maybe that Alaskan Natives are because they are citizens of the USA?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

People are born Irish in Dundalk and are born british in Newry.

So the Provos were British? Welcome to the weird wee world of the unionist mind folks.

The utter desperation to seek and magnify difference between people on one, or other, side of an imaginary line in Ireland.

I feel sorry for you lot.

blanch152

To be fair to Northern Ireland as an entity, the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland has lasted longer than the borders between most countries in Europe.

There are very few other borders that have lasted 100 years.

Even Belgium and Netherlands had a border swap during the last decade.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

To be fair to Northern Ireland as an entity, the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland has lasted longer than the borders between most countries in Europe.

There are very few other borders that have lasted 100 years.

Even Belgium and Netherlands had a border swap during the last decade.

How many have had a militarily secured border that has resulted in nearly 40 years of conflict/war?

How many of them have a border that has caused the issues it has with membership or not of the EU?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How many have had a militarily secured border that has resulted in nearly 40 years of conflict/war?

How many of them have a border that has caused the issues it has with membership or not of the EU?

You certainly don't know your European history!!!!!

Iron Curtain, Soviet Republics, Balkan break-up, Baltic minnows, etc. etc.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You certainly don't know your European history!!!!!

Iron Curtain, Soviet Republics, Balkan break-up, Baltic minnows, etc. etc.

So? How many more can you think off? It was a question.

There is another one when you have finished wracking your brain.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

You certainly don't know your European history!!!!!

Iron Curtain, Soviet Republics, Balkan break-up, Baltic minnows, etc. etc.

This is what it took to ''secure'' the border 1969-2007. A whole industry.



13,000 RUC
21,000 British Soldiers
6,500 UDR
Total: Circa 40,500


1,500 UVF
2,000 UDA
50 LVF


v.



750 PIRA
250 INLA
50 IPLO

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So the Provos were British? Welcome to the weird wee world of the unionist mind folks.

The utter desperation to seek and magnify difference between people on one, or other, side of an imaginary line in Ireland.

I feel sorry for you lot.

I am operating in facts you are operating in wishful thinking.
I would guess most of the ira had taken up their offer of Irish passports and therefore nationality

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

This is what it took to ''secure'' the border 1969-2007. A whole industry.



13,000 RUC
21,000 British Soldiers
6,500 UDR
Total: Circa 40,500


1,500 UVF
2,000 UDA
50 LVF


v.



750 PIRA
250 INLA
50 IPLO

That wasn’t to secure a border, that was to contain a tit-for-tat sectarian murder campaign between those groups you mention

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So? How many more can you think off? It was a question.

There is another one when you have finished wracking your brain.

WHAT!!??!!!

This was your response to my pointing out that the Ireland/Northern Ireland border was in place for 100 years, far more than most in Europe:

"How many have had a militarily secured border that has resulted in nearly 40 years of conflict/war?

How many of them have a border that has caused the issues it has with membership or not of the EU?"

All borders in Europe were militarily secured from 1920 until 1957 with the formation of the EEC and that only covered six countries initially with all other borders still being militarily secured, during the time from 1920 we had the Second World War fought over those boundaries, followed by the Cold War, followed by the collapse of the Berlin Wall and the break-up of the Soviet Union, followed by the numerous conflicts in the Balkans.

Compared with all of that turmoil affecting so many borders, the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland has been relatively stable, staying unchanged through all those times. Thems the facts, live with them.

I know that for people who are deeply attached to the republican cause that they believe it is the single most important thing in the minds of every European, but your post takes that to bizarre lengths.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

WHAT!!??!!!

This was your response to my pointing out that the Ireland/Northern Ireland border was in place for 100 years, far more than most in Europe:

"How many have had a militarily secured border that has resulted in nearly 40 years of conflict/war?

How many of them have a border that has caused the issues it has with membership or not of the EU?"

All borders in Europe were militarily secured from 1920 until 1957 with the formation of the EEC and that only covered six countries initially with all other borders still being militarily secured, during the time from 1920 we had the Second World War fought over those boundaries, followed by the Cold War, followed by the collapse of the Berlin Wall and the break-up of the Soviet Union, followed by the numerous conflicts in the Balkans.

Compared with all of that turmoil affecting so many borders, the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland has been relatively stable, staying unchanged through all those times. Thems the facts, live with them.

I know that for people who are deeply attached to the republican cause that they believe it is the single most important thing in the minds of every European, but your post takes that to bizarre lengths.

'Relatively stable', if you were a partitionist busily ignoring it.

Now when you are ready, can you answer the questions:

How many have had a militarily secured border that has resulted in nearly 40 years of conflict/war?

How many of them have a border that has caused the issues it has with membership or not of the EU?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Relatively stable', if you were a partitionist busily ignoring it.

Now when you are ready, can you answer the questions:

How many have had a militarily secured border that has resulted in nearly 40 years of conflict/war?

How many of them have a border that has caused the issues it has with membership or not of the EU?

Your question does not make sense, as there was no war in Northern Ireland, there was a terrorist campaign.

There was war fought over most other borders in Europe. There has been greater conflict over nearly every other border in Europe.


Asking closed questions the way you do is not a sign of someone open to debate and discussion.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Your question does not make sense, as there was no war in Northern Ireland, there was a terrorist campaign.

There was war fought over most other borders in Europe. There has been greater conflict over nearly every other border in Europe.


Asking closed questions the way you do is not a sign of someone open to debate and discussion.

What do you mean by 'closed questions'?

You just closed the discussion by picking out the word 'war' and ignoring the choice given to pick what ever you want to call it...a conflict or war.

Completely disingenuous debating again.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Relatively stable', if you were a partitionist busily ignoring it.

Now when you are ready, can you answer the questions:

How many have had a militarily secured border that has resulted in nearly 40 years of conflict/war?

How many of them have a border that has caused the issues it has with membership or not of the EU?

As we all know as Francies questions are answered he will have part b, c , etc, etc

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What do you mean by 'closed questions'?

You just closed the discussion by picking out the word 'war' and ignoring the choice given to pick what ever you want to call it...a conflict or war.

Completely disingenuous debating again.

I tell you what, Francie, since you are so sure that there are hundreds of European borders out there that were less stable over the last 100 years than the Ireland/Northern Ireland one, perhaps you could start listing them.

Remember what I originally said:

To be fair to Northern Ireland as an entity, the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland has lasted longer than the borders between most countries in Europe.

There are very few other borders that have lasted 100 years.

Even Belgium and Netherlands had a border swap during the last decade.

Give examples of where I am wrong.