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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

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    #1832
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I tell you what, Francie, since you are so sure that there are hundreds of European borders out there that were less stable over the last 100 years than the Ireland/Northern Ireland one, perhaps you could start listing them.

    Remember what I originally said:



    Give examples of where I am wrong.


    I never said anything about 'less stable'. I asked you two questions which AS USUAL you are deflecting from and avoiding by pointing over there somewhere.


    As to telling ME that the border was 'relatively stable' and therefore nothing should be done about it...get lost. As deeply arrogant, 'I'm alright jackism' as ever seen on these boards.


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    #1833
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I never said anything about 'less stable'. I asked you two questions which AS USUAL you are deflecting from and avoiding by pointing over there somewhere.


    As to telling ME that the border was 'relatively stable' and therefore nothing should be done about it...get lost. As deeply arrogant, 'I'm alright jackism' as ever seen on these boards.


    Let us be absolutely clear then. I posted this post, in response you are not challenging any of the facts in the post, just asking two closed questions to direct discussion in a particular way, to avoid the uncomfortable truths and then taking umbrage at my refusal to answer the questions?

    Have I got it right?

    blanch152 wrote: »
    To be fair to Northern Ireland as an entity, the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland has lasted longer than the borders between most countries in Europe.

    There are very few other borders that have lasted 100 years.

    Even Belgium and Netherlands had a border swap during the last decade.

    Bottom line, the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland has lasted longer than nearly every other border in Europe. FACT.

    It has also been more stable than most borders in Europe. FACT.

    Let's just leave it at that.


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    #1834
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Let us be absolutely clear then. I posted this post, in response you are not challenging any of the facts in the post, just asking two closed questions to direct discussion in a particular way, to avoid the uncomfortable truths and then taking umbrage at my refusal to answer the questions?

    Have I got it right?




    Bottom line, the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland has lasted longer than nearly every other border in Europe. FACT.

    It has also been more stable than most borders in Europe. FACT.

    Let's just leave it at that.


    It's just more of your (thankfully disappearing) partitionist demeaning.

    You think this kind of handwaving vindicates ignoring what was happening to real people for decades.

    It just shows in fact your callous disregard for real people, nothing else.


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    #1835
    WhenPigsCry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭WhenPigsCry


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Bottom line, the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland has lasted longer than nearly every other border in Europe. FACT.

    It has also been more stable than most borders in Europe. FACT.

    Let's just leave it at that.

    What, a border that was militarized as recently as the 1990s, and remains a highly contentious issue for local and international politics despite a peace treaty is stable?


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    #1836
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    What, a border that was militarized as recently as the 1990s, and remains a highly contentious issue for local and international politics despite a peace treaty is stable?

    To describe it as 'stable' is just an attempt to be as offensive as he can be. No other excuse...the guy wants to demean at every turn.


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    #1837
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    What, a border that was militarized as recently as the 1990s, and remains a highly contentious issue for local and international politics despite a peace treaty is stable?

    Are you talking about the Balkans again?


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    #1838
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It's just more of your (thankfully disappearing) partitionist demeaning.

    You think this kind of handwaving vindicates ignoring what was happening to real people for decades.

    It just shows in fact your callous disregard for real people, nothing else.

    Perspective, Francie, just trying to give you some.


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    #1839
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    downcow wrote: »
    No argument. Seems pretty clear to me. There is an international border between Dundalk and Newry. People are born Irish in Dundalk and are born british in Newry. That seems pretty factual and simple to me.
    Those born in Newry can apply for an Irish passport thanks to a very generous agreement by the neighbouring country (Ireland) - I don’t think it is reciprocated for those born in Dundalk.
    A growing number of those born in Northern Ireland from all communities are referring to themselves as Northern Irish (same as scottish who are born british).
    ...and I was saying it had similarity to people who may refer to themselves as South American but certainly are not American

    A person from Ireland is Irish. By saying people from Ireland are not irish because their passport says they are British citzen would also mean that people from England are not English or people from Wales are not Welsh because there is not such thing as an English or Welsh citizen. You would be arguing that there is no such thing English Welsh or Scotish people?


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    #1840
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    A person from Ireland is Irish. By saying people from Ireland are not irish because their passport says they are British citzen would also mean that people from England are not English or people from Wales are not Welsh because there is not such thing as an English or Welsh citizen. You would be arguing that there is no such thing English Welsh or Scotish people?

    Using your formula,someone born in Canada is American


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    #1841
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Using your formula,someone born in Canada is American

    My formula? Which is saying a person from a place is from that place?


    A person from the country of Canada is Canadian. But what continent is the country Canada part of? North america. what is a person from North america called?


    Your question could have read.... using your formula, someone born in Ireland is European. What is wrong with that?


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    #1842
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    A person from Ireland is Irish. By saying people from Ireland are not irish because their passport says they are British citzen would also mean that people from England are not English or people from Wales are not Welsh because there is not such thing as an English or Welsh citizen. You would be arguing that there is no such thing English Welsh or Scotish people?

    If you are born in Ireland (26 counties) you are Irish by law.

    If you are born in Northern Ireland (6 counties) you are British by law, but by birthright, can choose to be Irish or British.

    If you are born in England, you are British by law.

    Now, the law only provides a starting point, what you choose to be, or to label yourself, is just a cultural, ancestral, linguistic or geographical construct. So, a person born in Northern Ireland is British by law, but Irish if they want to be, is perfectly ok.

    What you can't do, is label all people born somewhere in a particular way, unless you are doing so in accordance with what the law says. Insisting that every person born in England is English or that every person born in Northern Ireland is Irish, when the law does not say that, is not only wrong, but also provocative and typical of exclusionary nationalism.

    Edit: Your construct is also demeaning and insulting to indigenous cultures of places like Australia and New Zealand.


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    #1843
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    blanch152 wrote: »
    If you are born in Ireland (26 counties) you are Irish by law.

    If you are born in Northern Ireland (6 counties) you are British by law, but by birthright, can choose to be Irish or British.

    If you are born in England, you are British by law.

    Now, the law only provides a starting point, what you choose to be, or to label yourself, is just a cultural, ancestral, linguistic or geographical construct. So, a person born in Northern Ireland is British by law, but Irish if they want to be, is perfectly ok.

    What you can't do, is label all people born somewhere in a particular way, unless you are doing so in accordance with what the law says. Insisting that every person born in England is English or that every person born in Northern Ireland is Irish, when the law does not say that, is not only wrong, but also provocative and typical of exclusionary nationalism.

    Edit: Your construct is also demeaning and insulting to indigenous cultures of places like Australia and New Zealand.

    Eh... what are you on about. There nothing wrong with saying a person from x is from x and it is not illegal to say that. If I say some one is Glaswegian because they are from Glasgow ...,. I have broken the law???

    you seem to think you can only refer a person to a place they are citizen of. Then terms like European, African Londoner, Dubliner would all be illegal terms.


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    #1844
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    A person from Ireland is Irish. By saying people from Ireland are not irish because their passport says they are British citzen would also mean that people from England are not English or people from Wales are not Welsh because there is not such thing as an English or Welsh citizen. You would be arguing that there is no such thing English Welsh or Scotish people?

    I completely agree with you here. This is exactly what I was trying to say. I am Northern Irish and a few people on here were trying to tell me that I couldn't be Northern Irish because there is no such thing as a Northern Irish citizen. I completely agree with you. In the same way as Scottish people are born in the UK, so are Northern Irish people.
    Thank you for the clarity

    And I am assuming when you say Ireland you are referring to ROI


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    #1845
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    downcow wrote: »
    I completely agree with you here. This is exactly what I was trying to say. I am Northern Irish and a few people on here were trying to tell me that I couldn't be Northern Irish because there is no such thing as a Northern Irish citizen. I completely agree with you. In the same way as Scottish people are born in the UK, so are Northern Irish people.
    Thank you for the clarity

    great, so we are in agreement then, people from Ireland are Irish.


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    #1846
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    great, so we are in agreement then, people from Ireland are Irish.

    You would need to clarify are you talking about the country or the island?


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    #1847
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    downcow wrote: »
    You would need to clarify are you talking about the country or the island?

    The island as we both know there is no sovereign country Ireland.


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    #1848
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    The island as we both know there is no sovereign country Ireland.

    That is news to me. I do wish you were correct but I think you're wrong. Maybe someone will clarify for us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state

    I am curious, do you live in this country that you do not know the name of?


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    #1849
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    downcow wrote: »
    That is news to me. I do wish you were correct but I think you're wrong. Maybe someone will clarify for us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Irish_state

    I am curious, do you live in this country that you do not know the name of?

    Ireland is the Island. The ROI is the country but does not cover all of Ireland


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    #1850
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    Ireland is the Island. The ROI is the country but does not cover all of Ireland

    I think you are wrong. As I say, I wish you were right. I have always thought it was a bit disingenuous of Eire to name the country after the whole landmass even though they share it with part of another country. To use the American analogy again, it would be like the USA calling their country America.
    Is there anyone can clarify this for ittakestwo and me as my knowledge on your beautiful country is limited


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    #1851
    WhenPigsCry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭WhenPigsCry


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Are you talking about the Balkans again?

    No, I'm talking about the border regions in Ireland, where as recently as the 90s, the IRA, for example, was running its own checkpoints in parts of South Armagh, shooting down helicopters, and sniping security forces.

    I guess if you're only willing to contrast it with the notorious ethno-nationalist conflagrations that followed the breakup of Yugoslavia, that might seem stable, but I think most people would find that a shocking state of affairs in a Western European democracy at the end of the 20th century.


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    #1852
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    The border in Ireland was forced through the Irish people, it divides a nation against their will and it will come to an end one way or another.


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    #1853
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    downcow wrote: »
    I think you are wrong. As I say, I wish you were right. I have always thought it was a bit disingenuous of Eire to name the country after the whole landmass even though they share it with part of another country. To use the American analogy again, it would be like the USA calling their country America.
    Is there anyone can clarify this form ittakestwo and me as my knowledge on your beautiful country is limited


    So you expected that Ireland should have changed its name to facilitate partition? Change the name to what?



    PS I thing a lot of people from the USA call their country 'America' and refer to themselves as Americans (which they are).


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    #1854
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭jh79


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    The border in Ireland was forced through the Irish people, it divides a nation against their will and it will come to an end one way or another.

    You suggesting that that the GFA won't be respected if the people of NI continue to prefer to stay in the UK?


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    #1855
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    jh79 wrote: »
    You suggesting that that the GFA won't be respected if the people of NI continue to prefer to stay in the UK?


    The GFA doesn't limit the number of referendums that can be held. I think there can be one every 7 years so it's not in UI supporters interest not to respect the GFA. It might be inpartionist interests though.


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    #1856
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    jm08 wrote: »
    The GFA doesn't limit the number of referendums that can be held. I think there can be one every 7 years so it's not in UI supporters interest not to respect the GFA. It might be inpartionist interests though.

    Each referendum is subject to the same overarching condition - that the SOS holds one "if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland."

    If the first referendum is heavily defeated, and there is no obvious change in political mood, there might never be another one.


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    #1857
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,184 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Each referendum is subject to the same overarching condition - that the SOS holds one "if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland."

    If the first referendum is heavily defeated, and there is no obvious change in political mood, there might never be another one.

    ...and then again, there might be.

    What is point here blanch?


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    #1858
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,626 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    jm08 wrote: »
    So you expected that Ireland should have changed its name to facilitate partition? Change the name to what?



    PS I thing a lot of people from the USA call their country 'America' and refer to themselves as Americans (which they are).

    Ittakestwo. I think jmo8 is agreeing with me that the country is officially called Ireland.

    ..... again I may be wrong jmo8 (but I wasn’t the last time). I thought the country (26 counties) only took on the name Ireland much later than it was formed. I thought it had various names since partition. But as I say my kno we ledge of your beautiful country is limited. (Mind you, at least I know it’s name which it seems some residents don’t )


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    #1859
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,273 ✭✭✭jh79


    jm08 wrote: »
    The GFA doesn't limit the number of referendums that can be held. I think there can be one every 7 years so it's not in UI supporters interest not to respect the GFA. It might be inpartionist interests though.

    The poster said a UI would happen one way or another, assuming the GFA is one way, I'm curious as to what the other way is?


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    #1860
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    jh79 wrote: »
    You suggesting that that the GFA won't be respected if the people of NI continue to prefer to stay in the UK?

    The GFA is a road-map to unification. This issue isn't going away, ever.

    How the GFA works in essence. We keep having border polls until the people vote for a UI.

    Border poll 1: UI 0 - 1 UK
    Border poll 2: UI 0 - 1 UK
    Border poll 3: UI 1 - 0 UK (all over, no replay)


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    #1861
    ittakestwo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    downcow wrote: »
    I think you are wrong. As I say, I wish you were right. I have always thought it was a bit disingenuous of Eire to name the country after the whole landmass even though they share it with part of another country. To use the American analogy again, it would be like the USA calling their country America.
    Is there anyone can clarify this for ittakestwo and me as my knowledge on your beautiful country is limited

    Anyway regardless of the name of the state. You can refer to anyone from Ireland as irish even tho not all irish (tho they could if chosed) are citzens of the state republic of Ireland.

    As your post #1844 say you dont have to refer people by their citzenship as identifys like English or Scottish would mean nothing. If a person is from England you can refer to them as English and if a person is from Ireland you can refer to them as irish by that fact.


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