Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

We have been through this before about your ignorance of the figures for the 1973 referendum. Not only did a majority of those who voted reject independence, but the numbers constituted a majority of the electorate. That means that if every single person who abstained/was sick/couldn't be bothered/was away had voted for independence, then independence would still have been rejected.

Those are the bare facts, indisputable facts, yet you still deny them. Incredible.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Northern_Ireland_border_poll

591,820 out of an electorate of 1,030,084 rejected independence.

Yes 'we have been through it' and what emerged is that that referendum is something of a threadworn Unionist and partitionist comfort blanket...with most Unionists ignoring it as a sign of anything, such a sham that it was.

maccored

blanch152 wrote:

We have been through this before about your ignorance of the figures for the 1973 referendum. Not only did a majority of those who voted reject independence, but the numbers constituted a majority of the electorate. That means that if every single person who abstained/was sick/couldn't be bothered/was away had voted for independence, then independence would still have been rejected.

Those are the bare facts, indisputable facts, yet you still deny them. Incredible.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_N...nd_border_poll

591,820 out of an electorate of 1,030,084 rejected independence.

to be frank though - the republic of ireland in 1973 was still in the 50's. no surprise if they wanted to stay in the UK almost 50 years ago. Long time ago - well due an update

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

We have been through this before about your ignorance of the figures for the 1973 referendum. Not only did a majority of those who voted reject independence, but the numbers constituted a majority of the electorate. That means that if every single person who abstained/was sick/couldn't be bothered/was away had voted for independence, then independence would still have been rejected.

Those are the bare facts, indisputable facts, yet you still deny them. Incredible.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Northern_Ireland_border_poll

591,820 out of an electorate of 1,030,084 rejected independence.

According to the BBC only 1% of the catholic population voted (who were in the minority anyway). Are you surprised that unionists were rejecting a UI. You do realise that the nationalist parties (including SDLP) advised to boycott it.

downcow

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Well one was made the first President. A bunch of them were appointed to the Seanad to promote inclusiveness.

So why would you say the Protestant population dropped by 70% ?

Shefwedfan

downcow wrote: »

So why would you say the Protestant population dropped by 70% ?

Seemingly we are to disregard that fact.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So why would you say the Protestant population dropped by 70% ?

You have asked this before and were presented with many sources to read on the subject. There are many reasons for the decline, this is a good summary of the reasons:

The exodus of tens of thousands of Protestants from the Irish Free State heralding the decline in the Protestant population was not as a result of sectarianism, intimidation or land-grabbing. Such views clearly promote a sectarian narrative about republican actions during the War of Independence and is not supported by evidence. Although some Irish Protestants were victims of a process of expulsion, coercion, and in some cases murder – acts which would have been abhorred by those who planned the Easter Rising – there are reasons other than those suggested by Prof Townshend.

A significant contributor to this population decline can be identified with the Great War and aggressively encouraged Protestant relocation north. The horrific slaughter of young Irish Protestant men in the first World War had a devastating and disproportionate impact on the male Protestant population of the South.

This was reflected in the birth rate for decades following the war. In addition, the Northern Ireland regime led by Sir James Craig enticed large numbers of Protestants, through the offer of government jobs and housing, to relocate north of the Border in an attempt to offset Catholic majorities in Border counties. Some in government service chose to leave with their families rather than enter the civil/public service of the Free State.

In addition, there was a large British military establishment in Ireland which was stood down in 1922. This group was disproportionately Protestant.

Others left because they no longer enjoyed social and official privilege being Protestant once brought.


Furthermore, the strong religious, cultural and political ties which southern Protestants had in common with the northern majority resulted in a sizable shift of Protestants north across the Border.

It is worth noting that two Protestants who decided to stay south subsequently became presidents of Ireland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/protestant-population-decline-1.1935463

downcow

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Seemingly we are to disregard that fact.

Yeah. It doesn’t fit with the narrative

TheBoyConor

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm from a Unionist Protestant family in the Republic. I'd say I count as part of the "they".

Out of interest, why did your family decide to stay in the 26 county republic rather than go back to England or go to the north? I would have thought a protestant unionist person would be happier amongst their own people.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You have asked this before and were presented with many sources to read on the subject. There are many reasons for the decline, this is a good summary of the reasons:

Why not provide the source instead of copying and pasting one part Francie? or does it not suit your standard agenda??

Shefwedfan

downcow wrote: »

Yeah. It doesn’t fit with the narrative

It's the Sinn Fein narrative, if it doesn't suit that narrative it doesn't exist.

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Why not provide the source instead of copying and pasting one part Francie? or does it not suit your standard agenda??

Apologies...source added.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You have asked this before and were presented with many sources to read on the subject. There are many reasons for the decline, this is a good summary of the reasons:


https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/protestant-population-decline-1.1935463

Your source is
TOM COOPER,
Templeville Road,
Templeogue,
Dublin 6W.


That's some randomers who sent a letter into the newspaper....

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Your source is
TOM COOPER,
Templeville Road,
Templeogue,
Dublin 6W.


That's some randomers who sent a letter into the newspaper....

Have at it Shef. He was only repeating what many studies show.
Tell us and downcow how it was different to what he has synopsised it. Downcow believes that FF and FG in government oversaw ethnic cleansing of protestants.

Awaiting you contrary evidence.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

So why would you say the Protestant population dropped by 70% ?

I come from an area that would have been planted, and anecdotally I can tell you that at least three of the larger landowning protestant familes were hugely affected by the war. In most the families, all the sons were killed in WWI and a sister left to manage the farm and remain a spinster all her life because there was no one suitable for her to marry. Really sad, though her catholic neighbours were very kind and helpful to her.

My family home was bought from the local Landlord's agent who sold up and went to India I think. No one was sorry to see the back of him by the way!

Then you had people like Carson who encouraged protestants to move to Northern Ireland so as to increase the protestant majority, but he himself lived in England!

Thousands and thousands of people emigrated from Ireland in the 20s, 30s, 40s etc. up to fairly recently. Protestants were not the only ones who saw a reduction in numbers in Ireland during the 20th century.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You have asked this before and were presented with many sources to read on the subject. There are many reasons for the decline, this is a good summary of the reasons:


https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/protestant-population-decline-1.1935463

I have read some nonsense in my time but that letter from the Dubliner takes the biscuit.
I googled his address and appears to be the leafy suburbs of Dublin. That’s like asking a grammar school boy who has just qualified as a lawyer in his daddy’s business, what is wrong with grammar schools?
My fathers family of 11 all left Roi and would all site discrimination and cold house as their reasons. My father got a job in Belfast on his arrival and was chucked out that afternoon because he didn’t have the right permit. He had to go to Manchester to get a job, so so much for Toms argument that they were encouraged up and promised jobs.

But sure time and a few on here know it was all the prods fault that they had to leave Roi. All this time the catholic population in ni was growing.

Spin it any way you like guys it hardly adds up

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

I come from an area that would have been planted, and anecdotally I can tell you that at least three of the larger landowning protestant familes were hugely affected by the war. In most the families, all the sons were killed in WWI and a sister left to manage the farm and remain a spinster all her life because there was no one suitable for her to marry. Really sad, though her catholic neighbours were very kind and helpful to her.

My family home was bought from the local Landlord's agent who sold up and went to India I think. No one was sorry to see the back of him by the way!

Then you had people like Carson who encouraged protestants to move to Northern Ireland so as to increase the protestant majority, but he himself lived in England!

Thousands and thousands of people emigrated from Ireland in the 20s, 30s, 40s etc. up to fairly recently. Protestants were not the only ones who saw a reduction in numbers in Ireland during the 20th century.

Jm08 don’t try and deflect from the percentages by throwing in irrelevant numbers.
The catholic majority grew while the Protestant minority was decimated. There really is no way to spin it to get yourselves out of this one

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I have read some nonsense in my time but that letter from the Dubliner takes the biscuit.
I googled his address and appears to be the leafy suburbs of Dublin. That’s like asking a grammar school boy who has just qualified as a lawyer in his daddy’s business, what is wrong with grammar schools?
My fathers family of 11 all left Roi and would all site discrimination and cold house as their reasons. My father got a job in Belfast on his arrival and was chucked out that afternoon because he didn’t have the right permit. He had to go to Manchester to get a job, so so much for Toms argument that they were encouraged up and promised jobs.

But sure time and a few on here know it was all the prods fault that they had to leave Roi. All this time the catholic population in ni was growing.

Spin it any way you like guys it hardly adds up

So where is your data downcow...show us.

Another wee story that confirms your bias is not really presenting data.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I have read some nonsense in my time but that letter from the Dubliner takes the biscuit.
I googled his address and appears to be the leafy suburbs of Dublin. That’s like asking a grammar school boy who has just qualified as a lawyer in his daddy’s business, what is wrong with grammar schools?
My fathers family of 11 all left Roi and would all site discrimination and cold house as their reasons. My father got a job in Belfast on his arrival and was chucked out that afternoon because he didn’t have the right permit. He had to go to Manchester to get a job, so so much for Toms argument that they were encouraged up and promised jobs.

But sure time and a few on here know it was all the prods fault that they had to leave Roi. All this time the catholic population in ni was growing.

Spin it any way you like guys it hardly adds up

Big house protestants were encouraged north . Lets not pretend that big house unionism's biggest fear was that the catholic and protestant working class would get together and take on the wealthy middle classes. Big House Unionism promoted sectarianism in the working classes to cause division.

Did your father's family have a job in the ROI? Was he chucked out of it like he was chucked out of the one in Belfast. Does your family hold any resentment towards NI that he was chucked out of his job and then had to go to Manchester to work.

Templeogue is a nice area (relatively new middle class estates). I think he was quoting what Prof. John Regan of Dundee University had to say about this supposed 'enthnic cleaning' which I quote below (from Irish Times).

.... “The . . . Protestant malaise in the nascent Irish Free State”, Prof Fitzpatrick says, “was not excess migration but failure to enroll new members, presumably as a consequence of already low fertility and nuptiality, exacerbated by losses through mixed marriages and [religious] conversions”. Prof Fitzpatrick’s reinterpretation rests on a sophisticated analysis of census and other data.
However, common to both interpretations is the laboured suggestion that southern Irish Protestants might have experienced, despite the lack of evidence, ethnic cleansing. For Prof Townshend, this is because some historians have “suggested” as much. In 1996, the late Prof Peter Hart used the term “ethnic cleansing” to describe the experience of southern Protestants, whereupon it was seized on by polemicists. Prof Hart was the only serious historian ever to apply the term to the 1920s, but he reversed his position in 2005.

Read the full account here:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/ethnic-cleansing-1.1931023

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Have at it Shef. He was only repeating what many studies show.
Tell us and downcow how it was different to what he has synopsised it. Downcow believes that FF and FG in government oversaw ethnic cleansing of protestants.

Awaiting you contrary evidence.

Why would I need contrary evidence? you haven't provided any evidence yet.

I can share the Adrian Kennedy radio show. Would suit you down to the ground.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So where is your data downcow...show us.

Another wee story that confirms your bias is not really presenting data.

What data have you provided?

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Why would I need contrary evidence? you haven't provided any evidence yet.



I can share the Adrian Kennedy radio show. Would suit you down to the ground.

I did with the poster before, it's pointless, He will insist on being a victim no matter what evidence is presented.

Somebody else on the thread is presenting evidence (or the Shinner narrative) I'll stand back and watch you and downcow demolish it with the weight of your own evidence that shows that the new Irish state (run by FF primarily) so discriminated against protestants resulting in 70,000 of them fleeng the state.

Have at it.

Shefwedfan

Nice little image......tells its own story

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Nice little image......tells its own story

There is no debate that the numbers declined...the debate is about 'why' the numbers declined.

Fritzbox

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Nice little image......tells its own story

I've got a nice little image for you too...

Lord Fairlord

Volume III of the South's 1936 Census had some interesting statistics regarding the proportions of vocational occupations held by Protestants (bear in mind that the Protestant minority constituted 6.3% of the male population at the time).
6.9% - The Public Administration
14.5% - Commerce, Finance and Insurance
15.9% - The Professions
16.2% - The Railways
21.8% - Shipping and Harbour Officials
45% - Bank Officials
50.8% - Heads of Business Houses
30.2% - Commercial Travellers

Galwayguy35

I think its a pity they burned all the landlords houses around the country in the 1920s, there are the ruins of two of them in the area I live in and they must have been a sight to behold before the match was set to them.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Big house protestants were encouraged north . Lets not pretend that big house unionism's biggest fear was that the catholic and protestant working class would get together and take on the wealthy middle classes. Big House Unionism promoted sectarianism in the working classes to cause division.

Did your father's family have a job in the ROI? Was he chucked out of it like he was chucked out of the one in Belfast. Does your family hold any resentment towards NI that he was chucked out of his job and then had to go to Manchester to work.

Templeogue is a nice area (relatively new middle class estates). I think he was quoting what Prof. John Regan of Dundee University had to say about this supposed 'enthnic cleaning' which I quote below (from Irish Times).



Read the full account here:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/ethnic-cleansing-1.1931023

So why did the ‘wee house prods’ leave? I suppose you have worked out a story for them as well

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is no debate that the numbers declined...the debate is about 'why' the numbers declined.

How is it a debate?

I am just wondering how long you play the charade.

Just google "protestants living in ireland after spilt" and its the very first link.

You have no problem finding the most random documents to support SF, even using letters to a paper so don't try BS us all saying you can't find the information. You just don't want to share it.....standard Francie

downcow

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What data have you provided?

You beat me to it. That was my thought exactly when I read Francies post

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So why did the ‘wee house prods’ leave? I suppose you have worked out a story for them as well

Because they listened to false promises of jobs in the north?