Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

Lucy8080

downcow wrote: »

I don’t know what you are implying by saying billy b had a bad few moments. He is a gentleman and a real NI hero. If you are implying he done something wrong then please be specific so as I can at least challenge it.
This demonstrates the difficulty with the thread question. What is success for one may be perceived as failure by another. Billy b like NI is/was a big success

Yup, Billy was all you say. Yet , he was whipping up a crowd who were chanting sectarian and racist abuse at the R.O.I. team in 1993. He also made a few goading remarks about the side in the week leading up to the game.

It was the last thing that was needed as both communities in the north were high with tension because of events in the weeks before the game.

I still think that was a lapse/out of character for Billy , and would hold him in the same light you want to hold him.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

This is bloody embarrassing all round, lads. Seriously playground sh*te.

Tis that. Bandying about the word 'sectarian' when they don't know the meaning of it.
I see downcow is now trying to make support for a presidential campaign 'sectarian'.

timthumbni

Five Eighth wrote: »

As you are prepared to allege on a public forum that an entire race of people i.e. the Irish are '...brought up in hate' and hate the English, Northern Irish Protestants, non-Catholics and Jews. Please support this allegation with your sourced facts.

Also, please clarify who you mean when you insert 'etc.' in your post.

The Irish are not a race as far as I know. I certainly would suggest there is widespread anti English/ anti British sentiment throughout a large percentage of Irish people. Do you think that’s inaccurate? I don’t believe this is the same for all, of course, but I do think it’s very common.

As for being brought up to hate one of your ex presidents said the exact same thing about NI unionists. I’m sure it’s on google if you wish to look it up. (Mary btw)

downcow

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Yup, Billy was all you say. Yet , he was whipping up a crowd who were chanting sectarian and racist abuse at the R.O.I. team in 1993. He also made a few goading remarks about the side in the week leading up to the game.

It was the last thing that was needed as both communities in the north were high with tension because of events in the weeks before the game.

I still think that was a lapse/out of character for Billy , and would hold him in the same light you want to hold him.

I will not respond any further on this because it is off topic, but I owe it to a hero like Billy to briefly challenge the disgusting and untrue accusation you are making against him.
At one point, and I think you will find it was only one point, Billy Bingham egged the crowd on to raise the atmosphere higher. At that point the chant was 'England Rejects'. Windsor Park was notorious, and still is, for the impact of the 12th man and how it can change games. To suggest "he was whipping up a crowd who were chanting sectarian and racist abuse" is disgusting and inaccurate. Remember Billy had a Catholic captain and a large number of Catholic players on the Northern Ireland team that night. The nonsense that is talked about that night is disgraceful.
The Northern Ireland crowd were not angels, but that whipping up had been done previous to the game by the ROI management and the IRA, and was added to on the night by the ROI supporters in attendance.

I will not be discussing this further because of it being off topic. Open thread and I will enlighten you - I even have a video of the game somewhere in my house

downcow

timthumbni wrote: »

The Irish are not a race as far as I know. I certainly would suggest there is widespread anti English/ anti British sentiment throughout a large percentage of Irish people. Do you think that’s inaccurate? I don’t believe this is the same for all, of course, but I do think it’s very common.

As for being brought up to hate one of your ex presidents said the exact same thing about NI unionists. I’m sure it’s on google if you wish to look it up. (Mary btw)

I think you will find that Francie thinks they are a pure race. Ourselves Alone and all that

Lucy8080

downcow wrote: »

I will not respond any further on this because it is off topic, but I owe it to a hero like Billy to briefly challenge the disgusting and untrue accusation you are making against him.
At one point, and I think you will find it was only one point, Billy Bingham egged the crowd on to raise the atmosphere higher. At that point the chant was 'England Rejects'. Windsor Park was notorious, and still is, for the impact of the 12th man and how it can change games. To suggest "he was whipping up a crowd who were chanting sectarian and racist abuse" is disgusting and inaccurate. Remember Billy had a Catholic captain and a large number of Catholic players on the Northern Ireland team that night. The nonsense that is talked about that night is disgraceful.
The Northern Ireland crowd were not angels, but that whipping up had been done previous to the game by the ROI management and the IRA, and was added to on the night by the ROI supporters in attendance.

I will not be discussing this further because of it being off topic. Open thread and I will enlighten you - I even have a video of the game somewhere in my house

I guess Billy didn't hear anything else bar " England rejects" that night. And, of course, it was that massive away support who caused all the bother!

"Where's Wally" would be an easier spot than an away fan that night.

Five Eighth

timthumbni wrote: »

The Irish are not a race as far as I know. I certainly would suggest there is widespread anti English/ anti British sentiment throughout a large percentage of Irish people. Do you think that’s inaccurate? I don’t believe this is the same for all, of course, but I do think it’s very common.

As for being brought up to hate one of your ex presidents said the exact same thing about NI unionists. I’m sure it’s on google if you wish to look it up. (Mary btw)

The Irish (Irish: Muintir na hÉireann or Na hÉireannaigh) are a nation and ethnic group native to the island of Ireland, who share a common Irish ancestry, identity and culture.
- Wikipaedia

You are asserting that a large percentage of Irish hate the English, British, Jews, non-Catholics and Northern Irish.

What constitutes a large percentage? Please provide your sourced facts.

Also, please detail who you are referring to with your ‘etc.’.

FrancieBrady

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I guess Billy didn't hear anything else bar " England rejects" that night. And, of course, it was that massive away support who caused all the bother!

"Where's Wally" would be an easier spot than an away fan that night.

The whole media world as well as everyone else saw what was going on that night except downcow.
He's been presented with the press evidence and comment and the memories of many who were there and refuses to accept it.

BonnieSituation

I wonder if our resident loyalists looked in on the Bloody Sunday commemorations from Croke Park where the Authorities massacred their own innocent citizens watching a football match.

I mean, a wee video, that turned out to be nothing played before a match against England caused such uproar that I can imagine the commissioned segment from the GAA would have them frothing at the mouth.

timthumbni

Five Eighth wrote: »

The Irish (Irish: Muintir na hÉireann or Na hÉireannaigh) are a nation and ethnic group native to the island of Ireland, who share a common Irish ancestry, identity and culture.
- Wikipaedia

You are asserting that a large percentage of Irish hate the English, British, Jews, non-Catholics and Northern Irish.

What constitutes a large percentage? Please provide your sourced facts.

Also, please detail who you are referring to with your ‘etc.’.

I said the Irish were not a race. I stand by that despite your Wikipedia quote.

The “etc” was simply in case I had forgot anyone so don’t lose any sleep over it.

Re percentages if you are being silly then 39.6%. I will reveal my sources whenever your ex president reveals hers.

Five Eighth

timthumbni wrote: »

I said the Irish were not a race. I stand by that despite your Wikipedia quote.

The “etc” was simply in case I had forgot anyone so don’t lose any sleep over it.

Re percentages if you are being silly then 39.6%. I will reveal my sources whenever your ex president reveals hers.

So, we've gone from the 'Irish' to 'a large percentage of the Irish' to 'you're being silly'.

For facts, to support your assertions, we have 'I will reveal my sources whenever your ex president reveals hers.'

Certainly enlightening.

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

I said the Irish were not a race. I stand by that despite your Wikipedia quote.

The “etc” was simply in case I had forgot anyone so don’t lose any sleep over it.

Re percentages if you are being silly then 39.6%. I will reveal my sources whenever your ex president reveals hers.

If they weren't 'brought up to hate' (you know the guys and gals burning effigies of dead people on bonfires 'etc' 'etc' when did they pick it up?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I wonder if our resident loyalists looked in on the Bloody Sunday commemorations from Croke Park where the Authorities massacred their own innocent citizens watching a football match.

I mean, a wee video, that turned out to be nothing played before a match against England caused such uproar that I can imagine the commissioned segment from the GAA would have them frothing at the mouth.

I would imagine that the GAA video about that day would not give all the facts of the day, including the massacre that happened that morning which led to the massacre in Croke Park.
Both were entirely wrong, but this is a bit like the match that Lucy was talking about - zero context, and let's make one side the only bad boys and our side the angels

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

I would imagine that the GAA video about that day would not give all the facts of the day, including the massacre that happened that morning which led to the massacre in Croke Park.
Both were entirely wrong, but this is a bit like the match that Lucy was talking about - zero context, and let's make one side the only bad boys and our site the angels

The GAA are commemorating the killing of innocent people watching one of their sports at their stadium. Are you saying that they should have added all deaths that day to it despite it having nothing to do with them? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Wait, is this a roundabout way of you saying that the killing of innocent people watching a football match were justified because the IRA killed RIC and Auxiliaries earlier in the day? A simple yes or no will suffice.

timthumbni

Five Eighth wrote: »

So, we've gone from the 'Irish' to 'a large percentage of the Irish' to 'you're being silly'.

For facts, to support your assertions, we have 'I will reveal my sources whenever your ex president reveals hers.'

Certainly enlightening.

You are missing my point.

In the interests of equality, if the president of ireland can make such a suggestion, then so can I. This is a message board where people put forward opinions after all. The fact that a republic of I manager in 2020 adds a wee political 30 seconds is telling. Especially as 90% (I know you like percentages) of their players play and earn their living in the hated England. Weird but whatever.

All in my opinion of course. We can agree to disagree.

downcow

timthumbni wrote: »

I said the Irish were not a race. I stand by that despite your Wikipedia quote.

The “etc” was simply in case I had forgot anyone so don’t lose any sleep over it.

Re percentages if you are being silly then 39.6%. I will reveal my sources whenever your ex president reveals hers.

A very conservative estimate there tim. My experience of engaging with nationalists in Northern Ireland (and this includes the most moderate), I find a unanimous dislike for e.g. the England football team, Israeli nation, etc. TBF I think the percentage of nationalists who dislike their Unionist neighbours is much less - indeed your 39.6% would not be 100 miles away, in my experience.
For people on here to pretend that Irish nationalists do not have an irrational dislike for England is fairly ridiculous, in my opinion

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The GAA are commemorating the killing of innocent people watching one of their sports at their stadium. Are you saying that they should have added all deaths that day to it despite it having nothing to do with them? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Wait, is this a roundabout way of you saying that the killing of innocent people watching a football match were justified because the IRA killed RIC and Auxiliaries earlier in the day? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Question one answer: yes - and yes clearly those deaths were related to the latter deaths
question two answer: no - and I was very clear all the deaths that day were wrong.

I am surprised if you disagree with any of my answers

Five Eighth

timthumbni wrote: »

You are missing my point.

In the interests of equality, if the president of ireland can make such a suggestion, then so can I. This is a message board where people put forward opinions after all. The fact that a republic of I manager in 2020 adds a wee political 30 seconds is telling. Especially as 90% (I know you like percentages) of their players play and earn their living in the hated England. Weird but whatever.

All in my opinion of course. We can agree to disagree.

Whatever about having an opinion, making sweeping assertions that the Irish/large percentage of the Irish hate Jews, non-Catholics, English, Northern Irish, British (Welsh? Scottish?) etc. is, to my mind, unsupportable by the facts.

Also, we have had two Presidents with the forename Mary. I assume you are referring to Mary McAleese who is from Belfast. She has often told her story of growing up in that city. Maybe you could provide the link where you allege that she said that all Northern Irish unionists were raised to hate. Thank you.

statesaver

downcow wrote: »

A very conservative estimate there tim. My experience of engaging with nationalists in Northern Ireland (and this includes the most moderate), I find a unanimous dislike for e.g. the England football team, Israeli nation, etc. TBF I think the percentage of nationalists who dislike their Unionist neighbours is much less - indeed your 39.6% would not be 100 miles away, in my experience.
For people on here to pretend that Irish nationalists do not have an irrational dislike for England is fairly ridiculous, in my opinion

Everyone hates England but who cares they hate everyone too

downcow

statesaver wrote: »

Everyone hates England but who cares they hate everyone too

This is very useful, and just about sums up my point. Here is someone who doesn't just hate England himself, but believes that everyone hates England.
That is an incredibly sad, ill-informed, prejudiced position. But even more sadly, it is not an unusual position amongst Irish nationalist

timthumbni

Five Eighth wrote: »

Whatever about having an opinion, making sweeping assertions that the Irish/large percentage of the Irish hate Jews, non-Catholics, English, Northern Irish, British (Welsh? Scottish?) etc. is, to my mind, unsupportable by the facts.

Also, we have had two Presidents with the forename Mary. I assume you are referring to Mary McAleese who is from Belfast. She has often told her story of growing up in that city. Maybe you could provide the link where you allege that she said that all Northern Irish unionists were raised to hate. Thank you.

No links as I’m on an iPad and they are rubbish for that. Google Mary Mcaleese Protestants brought up to hate. Then fill your boots. Ta. You can maybe message her and ask her for her sources whilst you are at it.

Also refer to post 2150. Thanks.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I would imagine that the GAA video about that day would not give all the facts of the day, including the massacre that happened that morning which led to the massacre in Croke Park.
Both were entirely wrong, but this is a bit like the match that Lucy was talking about - zero context, and let's make one side the only bad boys and our side the angels

Wrong again.
Every single history of the day addresses what happened that morning.

You guys might want to take a leaf out of how our decade of centenaroes has been handled. There is nothing being ignored or handwaved away.

timthumbni

statesaver wrote: »

Everyone hates England

Exhibit A m’lud. One of the other posters should take note. Percentage raised to 40.6%.

Five Eighth

timthumbni wrote: »

No links as I’m on an iPad and they are rubbish for that. Google Mary Mcaleese Protestants brought up to hate. The fill your boots. Ta. You can maybe message her and ask her for her sources whilst you are at it.

What does 'The fill your boots mean'?

Do you have a number of Mrs. McAleese?

Five Eighth

timthumbni wrote: »

Exhibit A m’lud. One of the other posters should take note.

One person's post does not constitute the Irish nation. Ridiculous.

timthumbni

Five Eighth wrote: »

What does 'The fill your boots mean'?

Do you have a number of Mrs. McAleese?

Sorry you obviously aren’t Northern Irish. Maybe that explains things.

That term just means go ahead, carry on etc. Nothing dodgy just a common phrase up here. Please don’t ask me what the etc refers to.

Sorry, I don’t have her number. Perhaps she is on Twitter or Facebook etc like most famous people nowadays. If not you could go old school and write her a letter asking her for her source or proof when she said that NI Protestants were brought up to hate. I don’t have her address either before you ask but if you sent it to the current Irish presidential address then I’m sure they could pass it on.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wrong again.
Every single history of the day addresses what happened that morning.

You guys might want to take a leaf out of how our decade of centenaroes has been handled. There is nothing being ignored or handwaved away.

Nonsense Francie. I have seen endless reports of the crooke massacre but I knew nothing, until today, of the massacre earlier that day that led to it.
So to claim it is always included is laughable

timthumbni

Five Eighth wrote: »

One person's post does not constitute the Irish nation. Ridiculous.

Of course not, but I’m more alluding to it supporting my suggestion that anti English sentiments are quite common (amongst the Irish)

Plus it’s a bit humorous too that someone posts that when you are trying your best to refute that suggestion. You have to admit that. :-)

Five Eighth

timthumbni wrote: »

Of course not, but I’m more alluding to it supporting my suggestion that anti English sentiments are quite common (amongst the Irish)

Plus it’s a bit humorous too that someone posts that when you are trying your best to refute that suggestion. You have to admit that. :-)

I'm refuting that the Irish/a large percentage of the Irish are reared to hate Jews, non-Catholics, English, Northern Irish, British, etc.

This is what you have alleged. Of course, there are some people in every country who hate. Your assertion is unfounded and unsupported.

trashcan

downcow wrote: »

Nonsense Francie. I have seen endless reports of the crooke massacre but I knew nothing, until today, of the massacre earlier that day that led to it.
So to claim it is always included is laughable

Bull****. If you have indeed seen endless reports then I refuse to believe that you had never seen the earlier deaths referred to. It’s included in every single history of the day that I’ve ever seen, and also was included in what I learned at school. Witness the RTE documentary of just last Monday as the latest example.