Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

downcow

trashcan wrote: »

No, I won’t be retracting. You said you had read “endless reports” but were unaware of the events of the morning until now. I simply do not find that credible in the least. The GAA were specifically commemorating what had happened at one of their games.

When did you become aware of the events of the morning which led to the events of the afternoon?

Beltby

downcow wrote: »

You think what you wish.
I was surprised to read this morning that a similar number of my country folk were massacred a few hours before your country folk were massacred in crooke park and that crooke park incident was in retaliation.
I wonder her many Irish Americans know that?
I must ask some of my nationalist friends did they know it?

When did you learn of this?

It's Croke park with a capital C.

Lucy8080

downcow wrote: »

...... but this is a bit like the match that Lucy was talking about - zero context, and let's make one side the only bad boys and our side the angels

Are you cheating on me now Downcow? It feels like you are doing the dirt on me, and that, any relationship we had is breaking "Down".

Lucy provided the context and alluded to the outside circumstances that may have contributed to 90 minutes of Bigotry and Hate in the home of Northern Irish Football. I'll leave the racism aside ,for your sake. You have enough to defend before we get onto racism.

Your fear of acknowledging what happened that night is not for me to defend or justify.

I will do my upmost to try and understand why you cannot own what happened.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You think what you wish.
I was surprised to read this morning that a similar number of my country folk were massacred a few hours before your country folk were massacred in crooke park and that crooke park incident was in retaliation.
I wonder her many Irish Americans know that?
I must ask some of my nationalist friends did they know it?

When did you learn of this?

Did you also know that The Cairo Gang were British Intelligence Officers and the people randomly shot in Croke Park were civilians and footballers?

Don't be crying over spilt milk downcow, the revulsion the killings in Croke Park caused amongst decent British people hastened our Independence.

You getting outraged about it now, is a tad too late.

timthumbni

Five Eighth wrote: »

Am i correct that the 'Brits out' question has been resolved by the GFA?

If, as suggested by the polls, a large proportion of Northern Irish nationalists would vote to remain within the UK then the matter is settled until a majority in NI votes otherwise.

The question we are debating is whether you can justify asserting that the Irish/large percentage of the Irish are reared to hate Jews, non-Catholics, British, Northern Irish, English, etc.

Basically, with no factual evidence to support this assertion, you're now suggesting this is just your opinion.

I fully stand behind this statement. People in Ireland (see what I did there - thank mother Mary for that semantic excuse) seem to be brought up to hate the English/British.

Of course up I’m not a public figure but if your president didn’t have to provide sources then neither do I. Thanks.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did you also know that The Cairo Gang were British Intelligence Officers and the people randomly shot in Croke Park were civilians and footballers?

Don't be crying over spilt milk downcow, the revulsion the killings in Croke Park caused amongst decent British people hastened our Independence.

You getting outraged about it now, is a tad too late.

He's getting outraged about something he apparently only heard about today.

He couldn't even condemn the killings in Croke Park without some weird qualifier. It's a fascinating view into the mind of a bigot.

"My country folk" he says... The tenuous grasp of their own history that bigoted loyalists have is stunning.

I'll not be wasting my time with him anymore. Those posts earlier were the last straw.

timthumbni

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Two lads, downcow and tim, literally inventing stuff to get annoyed about.

I never mentioned croke park or the ira murders in the morning before it.

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

I never mentioned croke park or the ira murders in the morning before it.

You invented a statement by Mary McAleese Tim.

If you cannot approach the subject of hate because it might reflect badly on you (it reflects badly on us all BTW) without lying about it, you are part of the problem.

Many awful things were done on this island because of hate. Hate learned at the knee of parents or hate learned from dogma preached by religiously bigots.

You guys need the humility to own your part in that. It's clear you aren't ready yet.

timthumbni

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You invented a statement by Mary McAleese Tim.

I invented nothing. Her statement is out there for all to see.

How you choose to view that rambling outburst is for yourself. I, and many others view it differently. Comparing NI unionists to German Nazis when some Irish republicans were in cahoots with the Nazis is pretty ridiculous.

But she was only the president of the republic of I after all. No biggie....

Five Eighth

timthumbni wrote: »

I fully stand behind this statement. People in Ireland (see what I did there - thank mother Mary for that semantic excuse) seem to be brought up to hate the English/British.

Of course up I’m not a public figure but if your president didn’t have to provide sources then neither do I. Thanks.

"People in Ireland...seem to be brought up to hate the English/British" is a huge step away from 'The Irish/large percentage of the Irish are reared to hate Jews, non-Catholics, British, English, Northern Irish, etc."

You've come a long way in an evening.

Necro

downcow wrote: »

You think what you wish.
I was surprised to read this morning that a similar number of my country folk were massacred a few hours before your country folk were massacred in crooke park and that crooke park incident was in retaliation.
I wonder her many Irish Americans know that?
I must ask some of my nationalist friends did they know it?

When did you learn of this?

It's common knowledge and taught in all schools in the south for the Leaving Cert.

Tbh I'm amazed you hadn't heard of it.

Then again, I've always thought the UK history teachings to be a tad poor if I'm honest, focusing on Kings and Queens instead of looking at a broader world view.

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

I invented nothing. Her statement is out there for all to see.

How you choose to view that rambling outburst is for yourself. I, and many others view it differently. Comparing NI unionists to German Nazis when some Irish republicans were in cahoots with the Nazis is pretty ridiculous.

But she was only the president of the republic of I after all. No biggie....

'Hate' Tim...common to Nazi's, common to Catholics, common to protestants, common to communists, common to Whites, common to Blacks.

When you can tell us where the children of the north learned to hate, then you can challenge McAleese who spoke about the hate she experienced and then went on to relate that to how or where all hate comes from.

Own the hate your community is responsible for as we have ours.

timthumbni

Necro wrote: »

It's common knowledge and taught in all schools in the south for the Leaving Cert.

Tbh I'm amazed you hadn't heard of it.

Then again, I've always thought the UK history teachings to be a tad poor if I'm honest, focusing on Kings and Queens instead of looking at a broader world view.

Would you have been taught about bloody Friday??

Necro

timthumbni wrote: »

Would you have been taught about bloody Friday??

Why wouldn't we?

timthumbni

Necro wrote: »

Why wouldn't we?

So you were then? That was part of the curriculum in the republic?

Necro

timthumbni wrote: »

So you were then? That was part of the curriculum in the republic?

Still is - covered under politics and society in Northern Ireland 1949 - 1993.

timthumbni

Necro wrote: »

Still is - covered under politics and society in Northern Ireland 1949 - 1993.

Interesting. Does this cover the Kingsmill massacre too? Was there much time spent on this and bloody Friday and in fact the Shankill bombing for example?

This must have been some course at your equivalent of GCSE level I take it.

Necro

timthumbni wrote: »

Interesting. Does this cover the Kingsmill massacre too? Was there much time spent on this and bloody Friday and in fact the Shankill bombing for example?

This must have been some course at your equivalent of GCSE level I take it.

Well, history is a subject you can choose and has a couple of facets, Irish and European history being the main focus.

There's two strands, earlier history (1494 - 1815) or later (1815 - 1993).

I wouldn't be up to date on what the Northern Irish part of it fully contains though it is detailed here in broader terms:

https://curriculumonline.ie/getmedia/da556505-f5fb-4921-869f-e0983fd80e50/SCSEC20_History_syllabus_eng.pdf


Was my favourite subject in school The Northern Irish history portion is covered on page 38 if you wanted a look

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

Interesting. Does this cover the Kingsmill massacre too? Was there much time spent on this and bloody Friday and in fact the Shankill bombing for example?

This must have been some course at your equivalent of GCSE level I take it.

Downcow only found out about the killing of British Intelligence officers that sparked off the random reprisal killings of people at a football match, this morning. Curriculum problems?

timthumbni

Necro wrote: »

Well, history is a subject you can choose and has a couple of facets, Irish and European history being the main focus.

There's two strands, earlier history (1494 - 1815) or later (1815 - 1993).

I wouldn't be up to date on what the Northern Irish part of it fully contains though it is detailed here in broader terms:

https://curriculumonline.ie/getmedia/da556505-f5fb-4921-869f-e0983fd80e50/SCSEC20_History_syllabus_eng.pdf


Was my favourite subject in school The Northern Irish history portion is covered on page 38 if you wanted a look

Thanks for link. Interesting but no mention at all of bloody Friday or any of the other atrocities I mentioned. I suspect they were never mentioned to be honest but only you could tell. Certainly not in detail.

In history we concentrated on the Belfast blitz aspect of the Second World War and we did the home rule aspect of Irish politics. Also we looked at the Victorian era.

All in all we are talking about gcse level or the Irish equivalent. It’s never going to be in detail.

timthumbni

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Downcow only found out about the killing of British Intelligence officers that sparked off the random reprisal killings of people at a football match, this morning. Curriculum problems?

I’m sure you were educated about bloody Friday in school? If not does that mean curriculum problems on your part?

Junkyard Tom

The difference between massacres like Bloody Sunday and Kingsmill is that nobody tries to defend Kingsmill, certainly not the Irish government/state. On the other hand the British/Unionists blamed the victims of Bloody Sunday for their own deaths and only resiled from that position after an enquiry was practically forced out of them.

Now imagine if the IRA had planted guns in the Kingsmill minibus and accused the dead of being a UVF gang while the killers were being protected by the Irish government.. that would be equivalent to how the British and Unionists behave when it came to massacres of innocent people.

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

I’m sure you were educated about bloody Friday in school? If not does that mean curriculum problems on your part?

I lived through Bloody Friday Tim, and Bloody Sunday and a lot more.

Do you own up to the hate in your own community or not?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I attended an event some years ago where (soon to become dissident) republicans were spouting their hate. The figurehead was mary mcaleese father. One classic statement from his colleagues was “the army should not have been sent in in 69. Psycaitrists should have been sent in to help the Protestants realise that they were not british”
So Mary might need to reconsider who was reared to hate

So, Mary McAleese's father wasn't at that event and didn't say that? You do realise that Mary McAleese's family were burnt out of their home?


The British Army would have been fine in '69 if they actually did what they were brought into do - protect catholics from protestants.

jm08

timthumbni wrote: »

Plenty of KAH (Kill all huns/Protestants) graffiti all over Belfast city centre. Bit different from street urchins spraying nonsense to people making inflammatory ramblings when they are president of the republic. (And then your footie manager going all Wolfe tones on his players)

What is wrong about what Mary McAleese said? Do you even know? There is an interview with Billy Hutchinson in today's Irish Times. This is what he has to day about the Rev. Ian Paisley.

“He wasn’t prepared to do what he wanted to do openly,” says Hutchinson. “From when I was a young man, I watched this preacher preaching hate and wanting people to kill people, but whenever people had to do it, or were doing it, he didn’t want to know.”

Worth a read.
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/billy-hutchinson-i-justify-everything-i-did-in-the-troubles-to-stay-sane-i-have-to-1.4414609

jm08

timthumbni wrote: »

Interesting. Does this cover the Kingsmill massacre too? Was there much time spent on this and bloody Friday and in fact the Shankill bombing for example?

This must have been some course at your equivalent of GCSE level I take it.

We lived it. The Northern Ireland Troubles were well covered down here - probably much better than in GB. Some fantastic journalists like the late Bob Fisk. All the main newspapers covered the Troubles extensively (Times, Indo, Press, Examiner) as well as Vincent Brown's magazine, Magill and John Mulcahy's Hibernia.

downcow

Lucy8080 wrote: »

Are you cheating on me now Downcow? It feels like you are doing the dirt on me, and that, any relationship we had is breaking "Down".

Lucy provided the context and alluded to the outside circumstances that may have contributed to 90 minutes of Bigotry and Hate in the home of Northern Irish Football. I'll leave the racism aside ,for your sake. You have enough to defend before we get onto racism.

Your fear of acknowledging what happened that night is not for me to defend or justify.

I will do my upmost to try and understand why you cannot own what happened.

Lucy you have sucked me back in to discuss this.
I am sorry you seem slightly offended by my response. But maybe context from me would help.
I am a lifelong ni supporter. I have journeyed with them and am incredibly proud of the way the fans have had the balls and innovation to take on sectarianism in sport and do something about it.
We are surrounded by sports like rugby and gaa who have tinkered with sectarianism in their sport, motivated by funding opportunities or at not looking so bad. For some reason these sports do not get the spotlight on them and their exclusive behaviours. Ni football is not just under spotlight when mistakes are made but people continue revisiting stuff from last century. And don’t revisit it honestly but twist it to suit their agenda.

I was at the game in 1993 and I can assure you billy Bingham does not deserve what you say about him.
He waved his hand in an encouraging way as the stadium echoed to “England rejects”. Roi were very embarrassed by the number of English players and English management at that time. They were nicknamed “England b team”. I thought billy done just right. Much of football is about the crowd getting at the away team.
I won’t list it all again but I have previously listed some of the stuff that the Roi management got up to on the lead up to that game. They also became only the second team in the world, pre that game, to call for NI not to not be allowed to host international football - what a kick in the teeth from your neighbours (Scotland being the other team - who at least done it in the 70s at the height of the troubles - which has never been forgiven by most ni fans).
So Lucy I Hope you do not feel that because we agree on lots of stuff that we have to agree on everything.
I do own the stuff my beloved team get wrong (imho). I have directly hounded them to get gstq replaced with a ni anthem (not some silly action like rugby of keeping anthem and playing another alongside). I have reported owc to UEFA to try to get action on this.
I have so much to say on this that it is ending up a ramble, but the unspecific and inaccurate accusations you are making about billy b just feeds Francie etc who keeps telling us about that game but won’t ever be specific about what both sides got up to around that event.
You are right that the vast vast majority attending that night were ni fans - can you explain why the only arrests for breach of the peace behaviour were Roi fans. And both teams had to travel to each other’s grounds - which team had its coach stoned on several occasions - do I need to tell you. Yet we here about the fear of being in the Roi bus untouched. Oh I could go on.
Now I am stopping referring to this game unless another thread is opened and I will just ignore the nonsense that will be coming from Francie et al

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did you also know that The Cairo Gang were British Intelligence Officers and the people randomly shot in Croke Park were civilians and footballers?

Don't be crying over spilt milk downcow, the revulsion the killings in Croke Park caused amongst decent British people hastened our Independence.

You getting outraged about it now, is a tad too late.

Classic trolling

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

He's getting outraged about something he apparently only heard about today.

He couldn't even condemn the killings in Croke Park without some weird qualifier. It's a fascinating view into the mind of a bigot.

"My country folk" he says... The tenuous grasp of their own history that bigoted loyalists have is stunning.

I'll not be wasting my time with him anymore. Those posts earlier were the last straw.

Were they not your country folk who were killed in crooke park? What is the point you are making?
Or are you dictating to me that british folk are not my country folk?
I really don’t understand

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Downcow only found out about the killing of British Intelligence officers that sparked off the random reprisal killings of people at a football match, this morning. Curriculum problems?

Francie. Bonnie is one of your own and he/she still doesn’t know about it according to a recent post, so this has been an informative thread for her/him as well. Bonnie must have missed school the day the crooke killings were linked to the earlier murders. Lol. You guys should get you stories in line.