Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

ELM327

Solutionking wrote: »

And the Union Jack is not burned? If you lived up the North you would know it is regular at any time of the year. This includes lads going around with supersoakers so they can squirt them with petrol and burn them

What about St Patricks day and people marching anywhere they want? is that not exactly the same thing?

Plenty of idiots in Ireland, what about SF politician shouting "Up da Ra"?
It seems you want everyone in the North to bend to your rules and no consideration what the other side are doing. Correct?

Both sides need to stop doing what they are doing and respect the other.
It is likely that within 5-10 years the island will be united anyway thanks to brexit and that will present more challenges. As it stands, there's already divergent treatment for GB vs NI within the UK.

FrancieBrady

ELM327 wrote: »

You are aware that "Northern Ireland" has no official state flag beyond the union jack?

Under the GFA the GB flag should not really be used as it promotes division.

All participants acknowledge the sensitivity of the use of symbols and emblems for public purposes, and the need in particular in creating the new institutions to ensure that such symbols and emblems are used in a manner which promotes mutual respect rather than division.

A request that the Irish tricolour be flown alongside the GB flag was unsurprisingly vehemently rejected.

ELM327

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Under the GFA the GB flag should not really be used as it promotes division.


A request that the Irish tricolour be flown alongside the GB flag was unsurprisingly vehemently rejected.

Under the GFA the agreement was that the status quo (ie that the union flag is the official flag of the region) would be maintained, until and unless a majority votes to change it. The Irish flag would never be flown in the North until and unless they rejoin the rest of the island.

That prospect is now the most likely it has been in my lifetime, and I hope we can get this over the line. Once the first border poll takes place, the GFA specifies that one can take place every 7 years.

Solutionking

ELM327 wrote: »

Both sides need to stop doing what they are doing and respect the other.
It is likely that within 5-10 years the island will be united anyway thanks to brexit and that will present more challenges. As it stands, there's already divergent treatment for GB vs NI within the UK.

Exactly both sides. Based on this thread it seems like a list of demands from one side before they will "respect" them. Sounds a bit messed up to me and no idea why anyone would think they can treat people differently or they have the right to demand them to comply till they decide if they respect them or not.

Ireland is more or less United already, we have no border, how many people live in the North and work in Rep? the road from Belfast to Dublin on a Monday morning is packed.

grayzer75

downcow wrote: »

Grayzer I really appreciate an honest attempt at dialogue.
I can completely understand your thoughtful confusion.
Your description is fair and I think it would be useful to continue in a vain of the normal general stuff and avoid the extreme exceptions on either side like paramilitary flags or nasty stuff on bonfires I am very happy to address those but I think best done separately.

So fad as the political speeches and the religious service at the field. Did you notice how many were present listening when you were there. Out of a celebration event which will be attended by 10,000s, I can confidently say that not 100 will be present or pay the slightest attention to the the speeches or service. That’s the point the masses go for picnics or to the pub. It is a nonsense and heeds to stop but traditionalists continue it. And yes you are right, clips of speeches I have seen on tv are extreme. Are the speeches all like that- I don’t know. I have been to the twelfth every year of my life (except covid) and I have never heard the speeches.

The flags bunting and arch we will disagree on. I really like them and it fills me with pride and belonging when I drive through an area that is well decorated. I am aware enough to know that nationalists driving through that will feel exactly as I feel driving through an area bedecked in nationalist gaa bunting and flags. But I believe in richness of diversity rather than the beige of neutrality and therefore I need to accept that that is a nationalist celebration and there needs to be space for it. And I accept that decorating towns is a much bigger thing in unionist community in the same way as taking over towns for fleadh is bigger in nationalist community. So it’s not like for like and nationalists will be pissed of more often than unionists with town decorations. And I will have to endure my town having days sometimes feels like weeks of Irish festivals and music in the street.

To be honest most of the ones in the field were elderly in the main but I just found it very strange - almost like something out of Fr Ted. We are lucky enough to have very good cross community relations to the point that last year a 'blow in' decided they'd put up a UVF flag on the front of their house - local protestant community worker had it taken down within half an hour.

I think if the nastiness around the bonfires and the silly speeches were would back it would go a long way towards easing tensions and the same could be said around the internment commemorations as well.

Solutionking

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Under the GFA the GB flag should not really be used as it promotes division.


A request that the Irish tricolour be flown alongside the GB flag was unsurprisingly vehemently rejected.

The tricolour has no place in Northern Ireland.
If we got the United Ireland you want the tricolor would be gone so why would anyone want it flown?

FrancieBrady

Solutionking wrote: »

And the Union Jack is not burned? If you lived up the North you would know it is regular at any time of the year. This includes lads going around with supersoakers so they can squirt them with petrol and burn them

What about St Patricks day and people marching anywhere they want? is that not exactly the same thing?

Plenty of idiots in Ireland, what about SF politician shouting "Up da Ra"?
It seems you want everyone in the North to bend to your rules and no consideration what the other side are doing. Correct?

How many times have the Parades Commission had to stop or alter the route of a St. Patrick's Day parade, SK?
Furthermore, what was the reason for the existence of a 'Parades Commission' in the first place?

There are idiots on both sides, that is true, but in order to have a pop at SF you are ignoring the fact that the problem stems from one side far far more than the other. And if you are being truthful, a lot f it stems from the activity of the aforementioned Orange Order that you are demanding 'respect' for, without them actually earning it.

FrancieBrady

Solutionking wrote: »

The tricolour has no place in Northern Ireland.
If we got the United Ireland you want the tricolor would be gone so why would anyone want it flown?

The GFA give people the right to identify as Irish, so long as the Tricolour is the flag of Ireland, it is their flag.

Did somebody mention 'respect'?

Solutionking

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How many times have the Parades Commission had to stop or alter the route of a St. Patrick's Day parade, SK?
Furthermore, what was the reason for the existence of a 'Parades Commission' in the first place?

There are idiots on both sides, that is true, but in order to have a pop at SF you are ignoring the fact that the problem stems from one side far far more than the other. And if you are being truthful, a lot f it stems from the activity of the aforementioned Orange Order that you are demanding 'respect' for, without them actually earning it.

I was responding to a post which gave an example. Just giving another example.

I am demanding nothing from the Orange order or anyone. You are the one who thinks you can demand respect from a certain section of community.

As I said, if we want a United Ireland when everyone can march anywher they want on St Patricks day then the same respect has to be given to the Orange order. As I said, if they want to march up the middle of Dublin then off they go. They can march anywhere they want. Do you not agree?

Solutionking

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The GFA give people the right to identify as Irish, so long as the Tricolour is the flag of Ireland, it is their flag.

Did somebody mention 'respect'?

You do realise people identify as Irish, Northern Irish, English, India, Slovakian etc etc etc etc in the North of Ireland and all over Ireland. That doesn't mean you fly another countries flag on government building. Does it now?

FrancieBrady

Solutionking wrote: »

I was responding to a post which gave an example. Just giving another example.

I am demanding nothing from the Orange order or anyone. You are the one who thinks you can demand respect from a certain section of community.

As I said, if we want a United Ireland when everyone can march anywher they want on St Patricks day then the same respect has to be given to the Orange order. As I said, if they want to march up the middle of Dublin then off they go. They can march anywhere they want. Do you not agree?

No, I don't agree to a sectarian and constitutionally bigoted organisation being given respect anywhere.
Like everyone else the Orange Order will have to reform to get 'respect'.

I have no interest in appeasing just for the sake of it.

Would dissident republicans be allowed to parade in your brave new Ireland, the National Front, Fascists etc?

St. Patrick's Day parades are not triumphalist or bigoted. If somebody is doing it just to taunt somebody, then yes ban it. Should never be allowed to happen.

FrancieBrady

Solutionking wrote: »

You do realise people identify as Irish, Northern Irish, English, India, Slovakian etc etc etc etc in the North of Ireland and all over Ireland. That doesn't mean you fly another countries flag on government building. Does it now?

All participants acknowledge the sensitivity of the use of symbols and emblems for public purposes, and the need in particular in creating the new institutions to ensure that such symbols and emblems are used in a manner which promotes mutual respect rather than division.

That means that flags that cause division should not be used.

Do you understand the meaning of 'mutual respect'? In the GFA that means between the two main identities in Northern Ireland.

Fr D Maugire

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The irony of your opening paragraph is staggering, Downcow...but while perhaps ill advised, I'll engage with your question.

Firstly in the Irish state, all flags are more benign than in the North, so those speaking from the context of their experiences in the 26 counties obviously won't have the same stigma attached to flags, and are unlikely to have been exposed to the territorialism of the North, which is often more akin to dogs and lampposts.

In the North, while I think your community tends to more of the territory marking behaviour (I've seen very few kerbs painted in green white and orange), there is certainly an equivalency to be noted between the flying of Tricolours vs Union Flags in areas to denote one community's ownership of the place. Without even pulling into the even more questionable, 'Soldier F' or UVF flags often flown alongside them, in both cases these flags are inherently political. There is no possible way to detach this from politics, no grey area end of story. The intention of flying these flags is always political.

This doesn't apply to GAA flags. While you may infer politics from a GAA flag, they are not inherently political, they're a sporting organisation. While some people may engage in flying county or club flags to make a political statement, plenty of people (I'd vouch the majority) fly GAA county flags to support their local team. This would be evidenced by the existence of the new East Belfast GAA club, and the PSNI GAA club (who had their best ever season last year).

There's also much less of the permanent/year round flying of these flags, generally they're flown in the event of an upcoming fixture, during a fixture or after a victory in a fixture. The more significant the fixture, the more likely you are to see them. This further lends credence to the idea that they're not political territory marking like the previously discussed flags, which are often permanently flown (and often in very poor condition, which I always thought was very disrespectful of that which they're trying to push).

It would be much more comparable if you were discussing NI flags being flown in the lead up to a soccer game rather than the year round Union flag, Red Hand, Ulster Banner tower often sported on lampposts year round.

Pretty much spot on. If NI were doing well in football and there were a load of flags up around some majority Unionist town or village, I wouldn't find it offensive in the slightest or if a local Soccer or rugby team from a Unionist community were doing well, it wouldn't be scandalous to see flags up supporting them.

Undoubtedly someone will try to argue that there are no loyalist paramilitaries involved in Soccer ot Rugby clubs in the North.

Fr D Maugire

Solutionking wrote: »

And the Union Jack is not burned? If you lived up the North you would know it is regular at any time of the year. This includes lads going around with supersoakers so they can squirt them with petrol and burn them

What about St Patricks day and people marching anywhere they want? is that not exactly the same thing?

Plenty of idiots in Ireland, what about SF politician shouting "Up da Ra"?
It seems you want everyone in the North to bend to your rules and no consideration what the other side are doing. Correct?

C'mon now, St.Patricks day was a religious holiday celebrating the arrival of Christianity to Ireland(What denomination is St.Patricks Cathedral in Dublin?). St.Colmcille or Columba is also celebrated as a Protestant Saint. St.Patricks day has been turned into a National celebration, but still mainly non political apart from NI of course.

The 12th July is a celebration of Protestant superiority over Catholics, always was and always will be.

Fr D Maugire

downcow wrote: »

Your second para is a very fair point I had overlooked - a classic example of seeing things from our own perspective only.
Yes of course there are orange members in Roi who are not british. The spirit of what I meant is still accurate ie there are no orange in ni who are not british.

I will have to check my history but I assumed the Dail which agreed the flag would have been majority nationalist in the same way as the majority in ni parliament who agreed the Ulster banner would have been majority unionist.

Could you confirm if that was the case Francie ?

Your last point is kinda irrelevant as anyone who sat in the Dail believed in an independent Ireland regardless of their religious background, and so the tricolour reflected that. It was not a case of a majority forcing something on the minority which is what happened in NI.

As pointed out, it was members of the Young Ireland movement who brought the tri-colour back from France. They were a mixed religious group who believed in a shared Ireland between Catholics and Protestants with a preference for a secular state. Their inspiration was the French Revolution and why they wanted something like the French flag.

Some of the main leaders were Thomas Davis, William Smith O'Brien and John Mitchell who were all Protestants. Ironically, Daniel O'Connell who is viewed as an Irish hero of the same time differed from them in that he wanted to retain a strong connection with Britain and give the Catholic Church an important role in Ireland. Too bad the Young Ireland revolution didn't succeed. Of course all those Protestants have GAA clubs named after them.

Junkyard Tom

Solutionking wrote: »

All parades, St Patrick and Orange order would have to be treated with the same respect.

Not a hope. The Orange Order and unionist parading is not the same as St Patrick's day, to try to equate the two is just ridiculous.

If the Orange order want to walk up the middle of Dublin then let them off.

That would be a hilariously bad mistake. The hard won policy of containment of Orange 'culture' in the northeast of the country would have to go nationwide in a United Ireland.

Solutionking

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

C'mon now, St.Patricks day was a religious holiday celebrating the arrival of Christianity to Ireland(What denomination is St.Patricks Cathedral in Dublin?). St.Colmcille or Columba is also celebrated as a Protestant Saint. St.Patricks day has been turned into a National celebration, but still mainly non political apart from NI of course.

The 12th July is a celebration of Protestant superiority over Catholics, always was and always will be.

The 12th is about a victory in a war, similar to Independence day for the America, Bastille day for the French etc etc etc

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Not a hope. The Orange Order and unionist parading is not the same as St Patrick's day, to try to equate the two is just ridiculous.



That would be a hilariously bad mistake. The hard won policy of containment of Orange 'culture' in the northeast of the country would have to go nationwide in a United Ireland.

Two answers which confirm a unified Ireland is years away. What does the statement in bold mean out of interest?

Fr D Maugire

Solutionking wrote: »

The 12th is about a victory in a war, similar to Independence day for the America, Bastille day for the French etc etc etc



Two answers which confirm a unified Ireland is years away. What does the statement in bold mean out of interest?

A war that ensured Protestant domination over Catholics, ffs religion was the prime factor that caused the war.

Lets not forget what happened in the aftermath of the Battle of the Boyne which was actually the Battle of Aughrim. The final battle was the Siege of Limerick in which the Dutch Commander agreed a truce with the Catholic leaders. Part of that treaty was religious freedom for Catholics. What happened in the following years? The Unionist Government of Ireland simply ignored the treaty, and instead introduced the Penal Laws which persecuted Catholics(and other minority religions) for the following 150 years.

So when you say it was just a war, it is also significant why the war happened and its effects on events afterward.

downcow

votecounts wrote: »

maybe not burning tricolours on bonfires on the 12th would be a start. Maybe realising that they simply can't march where they are not wanted. Only people who do that are those looking confrontation. maybe some of their politicians not referring to our former taoiseach as "the queer indian" as john taylor called him.
These would all be a start.

What about some honesty and integrity sticking to some facts.

Find me were there was ever a bonfire on 12th, or where there was ever a tricolour burned 12th? - But sure just lump everything in together - you are sounding a bit like John Taylor - it's just those queer prods up North.

John Taylor is not one of 'their' politicians, but if he ever forms a party I think you'd be a good colleague for him. You language is equally as nasty and prejudiced

Junkyard Tom

Solutionking wrote: »

Two answers which confirm a unified Ireland is years away.

A regular old democratic majority is required not some arbitrary standard you created, just now, in your head.

downcow

ELM327 wrote: »

You are aware that "Northern Ireland" has no official state flag beyond the union jack?

Yes i absolutely know that. Thats like asking someone from ROI if the know the Irish Tricolour is their national flag. What is you point?

BonnieSituation

ELM327 wrote: »

Under the GFA the agreement was that the status quo (ie that the union flag is the official flag of the region) would be maintained, until and unless a majority votes to change it. The Irish flag would never be flown in the North until and unless they rejoin the rest of the island.

That prospect is now the most likely it has been in my lifetime, and I hope we can get this over the line. Once the first border poll takes place, the GFA specifies that one can take place every 7 years.

The specification is that another "cannot take place" within 7 years. There's nothing to state that "has to" after that 7 year timeline has passed. The same criteria, ie. The SoS, has to believe there is a reasonable chance it would pass.

Realistically, the circumstances surrounding the first ballot and its result will dictate just how that will go anyway.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Under the GFA the GB flag should not really be used as it promotes division.


A request that the Irish tricolour be flown alongside the GB flag was unsurprisingly vehemently rejected.

Why would the Girls Brigade flag be offensive Francie?
http://lisburn.com/archives/churches/church-news-2008/lagan-district-girls-brigade-service.htm

BonnieSituation

Solutionking wrote: »

I was responding to a post which gave an example. Just giving another example.

I am demanding nothing from the Orange order or anyone. You are the one who thinks you can demand respect from a certain section of community.

As I said, if we want a United Ireland when everyone can march anywher they want on St Patricks day then the same respect has to be given to the Orange order. As I said, if they want to march up the middle of Dublin then off they go. They can march anywhere they want. Do you not agree?

What are you on about?

You should probably investigate why "certain" Orange parades are contentious and others are not.

I mean, no one complains about Rossnowlagh...

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Yes i absolutely know that. Thats like asking someone from ROI if the know the Irish Tricolour is their national flag. What is you point?

There is a reason why they have no 'agreed' flag.

Who would be the ones block to an 'agreed' flag? Those who threatened to bring the place to standstill because the Alliance proposed the normal use of the flag imposed on the place by a royal warrant and who obsessively mark territory with it like no other place in the UK?

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Pretty much spot on. If NI were doing well in football and there were a load of flags up around some majority Unionist town or village, I wouldn't find it offensive in the slightest or if a local Soccer or rugby team from a Unionist community were doing well, it wouldn't be scandalous to see flags up supporting them.

Undoubtedly someone will try to argue that there are no loyalist paramilitaries involved in Soccer ot Rugby clubs in the North.

A very interesting statement. Are you suggesting that the only people who should feel able to put up Northern Ireland football flags are those living in majority Unionist towns? (I know Francie will go off on one again about what sectarianism means) but that is a very sectarian approach.
...And if anything you highlight exactly my concern about territory being marked with flags whether sporting or not

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Your last point is kinda irrelevant as anyone who sat in the Dail believed in an independent Ireland regardless of their religious background, and so the tricolour reflected that. It was not a case of a majority forcing something on the minority which is what happened in NI.

As pointed out, it was members of the Young Ireland movement who brought the tri-colour back from France. They were a mixed religious group who believed in a shared Ireland between Catholics and Protestants with a preference for a secular state. Their inspiration was the French Revolution and why they wanted something like the French flag.

Some of the main leaders were Thomas Davis, William Smith O'Brien and John Mitchell who were all Protestants. Ironically, Daniel O'Connell who is viewed as an Irish hero of the same time differed from them in that he wanted to retain a strong connection with Britain and give the Catholic Church an important role in Ireland. Too bad the Young Ireland revolution didn't succeed. Of course all those Protestants have GAA clubs named after them.

This is ridiculous stuff that is being peddled, and highly sectarian. The religion of the people should not matter at all. To start quoting Protestants in the GAA is every bit as disingenuous as if I started quoting the Catholics who were in the RUC or UDR and suggested that proved they were somehow looking after catholic interests and did not favour Unionists.
I am astounded at the hypocrisy of many on this thread. And I admire those in the nationalist community on here, who can look at things a little more objectively.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

That would be a hilariously bad mistake. The hard won policy of containment of Orange 'culture' in the northeast of the country would have to go nationwide in a United Ireland.

As someone who is desperately opposed to a united Ireland, please please give Tom as many public platforms as possible. It fills me with a lovely warm glow about the future, every time he opens his mouth. Keep up the good work Tom, keep Ulster British lol

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is ridiculous stuff that is being peddled, and highly sectarian. The religion of the people should not matter at all. To start quoting Protestants in the GAA is every bit as disingenuous as if I started quoting the Catholics who were in the RUC or UDR and suggested that proved they were somehow looking after catholic interests and did not favour Unionists.
I am astounded at the hypocrisy of many on this thread. And I admire those in the nationalist community on here, who can look at things a little more objectively.

The GAA is a sporting organisation which has no history of discriminating against any religion in the playing of it's games and all religions and nationalities play it without impediment. The RUC and UDR have a history of discrminating against Catholics and nationalists. Both had to be got rid of and reformed such was the problem and we still don't know the full extent of what they did.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The GAA is a sporting organisation which has no history of discriminating against any religion in the playing of it's games and all religions and nationalities play it without impediment. The RUC and UDR have a history of discrminating against Catholics and nationalists. Both had to be got rid of and reformed such was the problem and we still don't know the full extent of what they did.

Francie is off on a solo run again.
My question was clear. Some people on here are using the fact that some Protestants were in the GAA as some sort of evidence that it was not anti-Unionist. I just asking why the same argument cannot be applied as evidence with regard to Catholics in the RUC and UDR