Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

droidman123

downcow wrote: »

As someone who is desperately opposed to a united Ireland, please please give Tom as many public platforms as possible. It fills me with a lovely warm glow about the future, every time he opens his mouth. Keep up the good work Tom, keep Ulster British lol

Ulster is not british

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie is off on a solo run again.
My question was clear. Some people on here are using the fact that some Protestants were in the GAA as some sort of evidence that it was not anti-Unionist. I just asking why the same argument cannot be applied as evidence with regard to Catholics in the RUC and UDR

What evidence have you that the GAA is 'anti Unionist'?

Your and some in your community's antipathy/hate is not evidence of it BTW.

The RUC and UDR were riddled with anti Catholic and nationalist members and there is plenty of evidence of that.

FrancieBrady

droidman123 wrote: »

Ulster is not british

He keeps slipping up. Ulster is in Ireland but 6 of those counties are not Ireland apparently.

downcow

droidman123 wrote: »

Ulster is not british

Oh I understand that well - My dad was a Donegal man and never forgive Carson for that fact.
I was being a little humorous as it was the old battlecry

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What evidence have you that the GAA is 'anti Unionist'?

Your and some in your community's antipathy/hate is not evidence of it BTW.

The RUC and UDR were riddled with anti Catholic and nationalist members and there is plenty of evidence of that.

Francie, as you well know, I was making no comment on either the anti-Unionist nature of the GAA or the anti-Catholic nature of the RUC. I was simply challenging how people continually on here try to evidence their belief that the GAA is not anti-Unionist by naming some Protestants who were members. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander

droidman123

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He keeps slipping up. Ulster is in Ireland but 6 of those counties are not Ireland apparently.

Somebody better tell the people in cavan,donegal and monaghan that they have been paying their taxes to the wrong country for years!

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, as you well know, I was making no comment on either the anti-Unionist nature of the GAA or the anti-Catholic nature of the RUC. I was simply challenging how people continually on here try to evidence their belief that the GAA is not anti-Unionist by naming some Protestants who were members. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander

He/she didn't say that.

He informed you, as I did, in more detail of the origins of the Tricolour and mentioned that some of the prominent Young Irelanders have GAA clubs named after them.
He/she didn't mention anti-Unionism at all.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He keeps slipping up. Ulster is in Ireland but 6 of those counties are not Ireland apparently.

Francie, here are the facts. I am typing slowly so you get it all.
Ulster is on the geographical Island referred to as Ireland,
three counties of the old province of Ulster are in the Republic of Ireland, And have the Irish tricolour as their national flag
six counties of the old province of Ulster are in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, And have the Union flag as their national flag

easypeasy!

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, here are the facts. I am typing slowly so you get it all.
Ulster is on the geographical Island referred to as Ireland,
three counties of the old province of Ulster are in the Republic of Ireland, And have the Irish tricolour as their national flag
six counties of the old province of Ulster are in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, And have the Union flag as their national flag

easypeasy!

Wrong on two points.

There is no such place as 'old Ulster'. Ulster still exists and consists of 9 counties. Check any current map from any source.

NI has no agreed flag.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

As someone who is desperately opposed to a united Ireland, please please give Tom as many public platforms as possible. It fills me with a lovely warm glow about the future, every time he opens his mouth. Keep up the good work Tom, keep Ulster British lol

I think it's important to be honest with Unionists like yourself. Of course young liberally minded Alliance voters will not give a damn about 'Love Ulster' types not being allowed to bring their hate carnivals anywhere they choose to.

Solutionking

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think it's important to be honest with Unionists like yourself. Of course young liberally minded Alliance voters will not give a damn about 'Love Ulster' types not being allowed to bring their hate carnivals anywhere they choose to.

But you seem to think it is ok for you to bring your hate carnival?

Seems a bit one sided here. People want a unified Ireland but just want to them threat a section of the population similar to what we seen in South Africa based on the comments?

Not see any issue with that?

FrancieBrady

Solutionking wrote: »

But you seem to think it is ok for you to bring your hate carnival?

Seems a bit one sided here. People want a unified Ireland but just want to them threat a section of the population similar to what we seen in South Africa based on the comments?

Not see any issue with that?

What 'hate carnivals'?

saabsaab

There is a tendency on both sides (not immune myself) to run back to your sides trench and snipe when such things get discussed. Better idea to play the ball in the open.

Junkyard Tom

Solutionking wrote: »

But you seem to think it is ok for you to bring your hate carnival?

Do we have an equivalent to the Love Ulster crowd who celebrate sectarian wars to try to rub their neighbours noses in it? Because I'd happily have them banned from marching where they're not wanted too.

The Nationalist people endured decades of supremacist parading until the house-training began at Drumcree in 1998. You'll notice that there's not nearly as much trouble in the summer in the northeast these days now that unionist parading is contained by the Parades Commission.

Seems a bit one sided here. People want a unified Ireland but just want to them threat a section of the population similar to what we seen in South Africa based on the comments?

Not see any issue with that?

What?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Francie is off on a solo run again.
My question was clear. Some people on here are using the fact that some Protestants were in the GAA as some sort of evidence that it was not anti-Unionist. I just asking why the same argument cannot be applied as evidence with regard to Catholics in the RUC and UDR

I mean, you've never answered a question over multiple threads. Your standards are a bit high.

Go wan, I'll humour you...

What's the question?

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I mean, you've never answered a question over multiple threads. Your standards are a bit high.

Go wan, I'll humour you...

What's the question?

Like trying to suggest I used the word 'authority' earlier and then asking a question about it, then ranting that I wouldn't answer that question, he is doing the same here.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wrong on two points.

There is no such place as 'old Ulster'. Ulster still exists and consists of 9 counties. Check any current map from any source.

NI has no agreed flag.

You are living in some crazy fantasyland Francie. The flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the Union flag.

Now you may not like that, and you can legitimately say that you would prefer it not to be the case, but unless you are going to disagree with the United Nations, the EU and basically every other body that exists then you need to accept it.

Now, past experience on here tells me that you may still claim that the union flag is not the flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but it really becomes a fringe position like the far right or the dissident republicans.

As for it being agreed, if you voted in favour of the Belfast Agreement, then you certainly agreed to have the union flag as the only legitimate flag for Northern Ireland.

I would love to hear your rationale for making a statement like, Northern Ireland does not have an agreed flag?

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I mean, you've never answered a question over multiple threads. Your standards are a bit high.

Go wan, I'll humour you...

What's the question?

The question is
why do some people on here continually referred to a small minority of Protestants being members of the GAA, the United Irelanders, etc as some sort of evidence that this means these organisations were somehow nonsectarian and not partisan, yet they seem to get upset when I point out that that is a ridiculous thing to use as evidence as I could point to many groups that they regard as sectarian as having both Protestants and Catholics as members, and I could point to many groups who are racist who have members who are both black and white.
So do not get tied up in weather Unionist organisations are sectarian or not. I want you to answer the question as to whether it is legitimate to use the fact that you have some of the minority community in your number to claim you are nonsectarian and squeakyclean

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You are living in some crazy fantasyland Francie. The flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the Union flag.

Now you may not like that, and you can legitimately say that you would prefer it not to be the case, but unless you are going to disagree with the United Nations, the EU and basically every other body that exists then you need to accept it.

Now, past experience on here tells me that you may still claim that the union flag is not the flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but it really becomes a fringe position like the far right or the dissident republicans.

As for it being agreed, if you voted in favour of the Belfast Agreement, then you certainly agreed to have the union flag as the only legitimate flag for Northern Ireland.

I would love to hear your rationale for making a statement like, Northern Ireland does not have an agreed flag?

You can't have this every which way.

Fine by me.

The country's/nations of the 'United' kingdom all have their own flags, Scotland, England and Wales, except NI which has no agreed flag.
So we can take from that you were talking nonsense when you insisted NI was a nation or country in it's own right. If it were, it would have it's own official flag.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Like trying to suggest I used the word 'authority' earlier and then asking a question about it, then ranting that I wouldn't answer that question, he is doing the same here.

Francie, surely the whole idea of a forum is that we can answer questions and engage with people who are different.

Now let me try again.

I am not accusing you of anything. I don’t think you said the words “the good Friday agreement gives the Republic of Ireland authority over the running of Northern Ireland” - so let’s put that to bed.

Now my question is

does the Good Friday agreement give the Republic of Ireland authority over the running of Northern Ireland?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can't have this every which way.

Fine by me.

The country's/nations of the 'United' kingdom all have their own flags, Scotland, England and Wales, except NI which has no agreed flag.
So we can take from that you were talking nonsense when you insisted NI was a nation or country in it's own right. If it were, it would have it's own official flag.

Does the Republic of Ireland have its own like Francie?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, surely the whole idea of a forum is that we can answer questions and engage with people who are different.

Now let me try again.

I am not accusing you of anything. I don’t think you said the words “the good Friday agreement gives the Republic of Ireland authority over the running of Northern Ireland” - so let’s put that to bed.

Now my question is

does the Good Friday agreement give the Republic of Ireland authority over the running of Northern Ireland?

We have a say and a consultative role and if the UK wish to do something outside the ambit of the GFA we have the authority to stop them or else they break the agreement. As seen with the Irish Sea border that the UK and Unionism resisted until they couldn't anymore.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can't have this every which way.

Fine by me.

The country's/nations of the 'United' kingdom all have their own flags, Scotland, England and Wales, except NI which has no agreed flag.
So we can take from that you were talking nonsense when you insisted NI was a nation or country in it's own right. If it were, it would have it's own official flag.

Francie, this is about history.
I understand England, Scotland and Wales existed as quite defined nations before the United Kingdom formed. Northern Ireland did not. Northern Ireland was part of Ireland. Ireland became part of the United Kingdom. The Ireland Parliament decided they would like to leave the United Kingdom but they said that they would like if the people in the north of Ireland would make their own decision, and if they wanted to stay then that was fine. So the people of Northern Ireland decided to stay. The people of Northern Ireland were wed to the United Kingdom and the union flag so didn’t see any big reason to design a new flag because they belong to the nation that was the United Kingdom. They did agree to use the Ulster banner as the flag of their devolved government. Surprise surprise, the majority of the people of Northern Ireland came to love the Ulster banner and regarded as there semi-official flag. Is there any of that you would disagree with?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We have a say and a consultative role and if the UK wish to do something outside the ambit of the GFA we have the authority to stop them or else they break the agreement. As seen with the Irish Sea border that the UK and Unionism resisted until they couldn't anymore.

Was that a yes or a no Francie?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, this is about history.
I understand England, Scotland and Wales existed as quite defined nations before the United Kingdom formed. Northern Ireland did not. Northern Ireland was part of Ireland. Ireland became part of the United Kingdom. The Ireland Parliament decided they would like to leave the United Kingdom but they said that they would like if the people in the north of Ireland would make their own decision, and if they wanted to stay then that was fine. So the people of Northern Ireland decided to stay. The people of Northern Ireland were wed to the United Kingdom and the union flag so didn’t see any big reason to design a new flag because they belong to the nation that was the United Kingdom. They did agree to use the Ulster banner as the flag of their devolved government. Surprise surprise, the majority of the people of Northern Ireland came to love the Ulster banner and regarded as there semi-official flag. Is there any of that you would disagree with?

When and how did the 'people of Northern Ireland' 'decide' to stay in the UK?

What other 'countries' in the world don't have official flags of their own?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Was that a yes or a no Francie?

Yu work it out yourself. The UK and Unionists wanted to Brexit. They were not able to because we used our authority under the GFA to stop them. NI had to diverge from the UK (unwed if you wish to keep up the metaphor) and have a border between it and the rest of the UK.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yu work it out yourself. The UK and Unionists wanted to Brexit. They were not able to because we used our authority under the GFA to stop them. NI had to diverge from the UK (unwed if you wish to keep up the metaphor) and have a border between it and the rest of the UK.

Surprise surprise, Francie doesn’t answer a question, what gives us another little riddle

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Surprise surprise, Francie doesn’t answer a question, what gives us another little riddle

There isn't a one word answer to it.

Ask yourself, if we hadn't intervened and used our authority under the GFA what would have happened.
Plenty of examples, from Theresa May to Boris and the 4 years (is it now?) the UK have been trying to get out of the EU. Snookered again and again by Dublin's insistence/authority under the GFA.

Hard to accept for you, but there you go.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When and how did the 'people of Northern Ireland' 'decide' to stay in the UK?

What other 'countries' in the world don't have official flags of their own?

You probably should`nt try and lecture anyone about flags.How long did it take before the confederate flag was banned from GAA matches? :pac:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cork-gaa-to-confiscate-confederate-flags-from-fans-attending-matches-1.4277385

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

You probably should`nt try and lecture anyone about flags.How long did it take before the confederate flag was banned from GAA matches? :pac:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cork-gaa-to-confiscate-confederate-flags-from-fans-attending-matches-1.4277385

As the saying goes, what has that to do with the price of tea in China.

Don't deflect to save downcow from answering the questions Rob.