Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

munsterlegend

Love how people on here live in the past. Religion matters very little in the south now except maybe if you are generally over a certain age. Protestant numbers have gone up quite significantly in the south in the last 20 years. The fact is nobody really cares anymore.

The north economy which was once the thriving part of this island is now left behind. Very little inward investment and taking a begging bowl to Westminster to prop up a public service. Arlene was even giving out we were taking investment away from the north conveniently forgetting we are two separate jurisdictions. There are many factors why and not all unionists fault but a failure to treat people equally was always going to lead to a dysfunctional state.

Shefwedfan

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

It's a testament to the openness of the Irish republic that it is now a country that has experienced economic prosperity and educational attainments that has left the North in the dust.


Another thing regarding this myth that downcow would like to propagate on the mistreatment of Protestants in the republic; how would that have been possible without muscular British intervention?

Indeed, as was stated earlier, many prominent Protestants were instigators of Republicanism, and this for more than a Century before the armed rebellion for Independence occurred.

If you really think Ireland is open I think you need to have a look around. Unless you are white and catholic you are in trouble in Ireland.

You can't beat a good old racist rant about the "travellers". A section of the country which is less than 1% of the population.

Have a good look over the Keelings thread, plenty of racism over that. Just look at this, who thinks it is relevant to know the religion of the baords of companies and actually shine a light on it?????

Ireland is and never was "open". It has got better, but just look all over boards and you see it is still ripe

listermint

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If you really think Ireland is open I think you need to have a look around. Unless you are white and catholic you are in trouble in Ireland.

You can't beat a good old racist rant about the "travellers". A section of the country which is less than 1% of the population.

Have a good look over the Keelings thread, plenty of racism over that. Just look at this, who thinks it is relevant to know the religion of the baords of companies and actually shine a light on it?????

Ireland is and never was "open". It has got better, but just look all over boards and you see it is still ripe

Absolutely bizarre.


Yourself and downcow have an absolutely bizarre view of the world. None of which matches with reality.


In many ways it's very sad, because it clearly means this is the nonsense you sit with at home when you are off the internet.

As for the boy conors paragraphs of waffle. The lad has form for bringing spoof into threads. I know plenty of protestants that are as Irish as the next Irish person. My childhood minder was protestant and I played with their kids. No one gives a crap. Only in tiny little minds do people care and there are a few on here.

mariaalice

downcow wrote: »

another interesting try at a suitable narrative, but why did the vast majority of those types leave?

That is a good question, it might have simply been for economic reasons like a lot of people who left Ireland although there are differences a lof of the COI people went to Canada for example.

Not every COI person in Ireland is some sort of landed gentry.

LuasSimon

Diving the island -Country has caused thousands of deaths through the civil war and more recently the troubles. We should have all remained in the United Kingdom if we couldnt have had a United Ireland. How did we ever think the people of Tyrone, South Armagh or West Belfast would accept British rule ??

Shefwedfan

listermint wrote: »

Absolutely bizarre.


Yourself and downcow have an absolutely bizarre view of the world. None of which matches with reality.


In many ways it's very sad, because it clearly means this is the nonsense you sit with at home when you are off the internet.

As for the boy conors paragraphs of waffle. The lad has form for bringing spoof into threads. I know plenty of protestants that are as Irish as the next Irish person. My childhood minder was protestant and I played with their kids. No one gives a crap. Only in tiny little minds do people care and there are a few on here.

Did I say a anyone wasn't Irish?

Why would you even know or care your childhood minder religion was? the fact you knew it says it all

TheBoyConor

munsterlegend wrote: »

Love how people on here live in the past. Religion matters very little in the south now except maybe if you are generally over a certain age. Protestant numbers have gone up quite significantly in the south in the last 20 years. The fact is nobody really cares anymore.

I think you miss the point. The whole protestant vs catholic thing isn't really about religion. No-one does, or ever did, give a crap about the consubstantiation/transubstantiation argument or about the holy Mary thing. It is about the religion being a marker for cultural identity and political allegiences.

Sure, there are protestants that are republican no doubt, but they would be in the minority. The majority of protestants, back then and today, would be opposed to the existence of the 26 county state or the 32 country Irish Republic.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

we have had this discussion before Francie. I can take you to a once proud Irish catholic and irish dance champion and fluent irish speaker. She married a domineering Free presbyterian. She has walked away from her whole identity, attends a FreeP church, runs to loyalist band parades, would describe herself now as a unionist and would tell you northern nationalists have been bred to be sectarian.
I think it is quite sad but it doesn't prove anything other than that she has a controlling husband who doesn't value diversity

WTF?

Is this how low you have sunk?

jm08

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I think you miss the point. The whole protestant vs catholic thing isn't really about religion. No-one does, or ever did, give a crap about the consubstantiation/transubstantiation argument or about the holy Mary thing. It is about the religion being a marker for cultural identity and political allegiences.

Sure, there are protestants that are republican no doubt, but they would be in the minority. The majority of protestants, back then and today, would be opposed to the existence of the 26 county state or the 32 country Irish Republic.

I think back then, it was more about economics. Protestants dominated the professional classes in Dublin. TCD & Rathmines (south Dublin) were the only two constituences to return unionist party MPs in the 1919 elections. They would have wanted to maintain the union for economic reasons. I think that economic reason probably changed when the economic situation of Ireland improved.

I thoroughly disagree with you about what their attitude today might be to the Republic and that they desire to be back in the UK union (particularly now)!

Fionn1952

I have to say I find it much easier to understand and have a discussion with a staunch Unionist, with all his inherent biases, and my own conflicting ones.....than someone who can't understand that Protestants could feel Irish.

I can honestly say that growing up in the North, I would've known the religious/cultural background of pretty much everyone I regularly associated with. I wouldn't have a clue about the majority of people I know since moving across the border. Trying to transplant NI identity politics to Ireland just doesn't work. Perhaps a hundred years ago, but largely as it is much further removed from conflict, it just isn't an issue.

ILoveYourVibes

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years.

On the ground from what people there have told me it seems the opposite. I could be wrong though. So interested to what people say here.

I have actually never been to NI.

listermint

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did I say a anyone wasn't Irish?

Why would you even know or care your childhood minder religion was? the fact you knew it says it all

More bizarre stuff from you. The fact I knew my friends went to a church of Ireland social club on the weekends and social events related to stuff on sundays in their church is a negative thing.

Absolutely bizarre.do you go on like this in real life.

It's a sickness.

Shefwedfan

listermint wrote: »

More bizarre stuff from you. The fact I knew my friends went to a church of Ireland social club on the weekends and social events related to stuff on sundays in their church is a negative thing.

Absolutely bizarre.do you go on like this in real life.

It's a sickness.

Yes it is a sickness not to be racist

Kaybaykwah

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did I say a anyone wasn't Irish?

Why would you even know or care your childhood minder religion was? the fact you knew it says it all

Lol. This is a new low.

That Protestant minder may also have played bridge every thursday, and kept it secret.

listermint

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes it is a sickness not to be racist

What the hell are you on about. I'd call you a name but id get banned.

I'm racist because I know my friends are protestant is that what your saying.


Read what your writing . It's demented

Fionn1952

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes it is a sickness not to be racist

How the bejaysus is it racist to know that someone is a Protestant!? I played music with an English lad for years, am I a racist now because I knew he was English? In hindsight, he was probably a Protestant too, I must be doubly racist.

Shefwedfan

Fionn1952 wrote: »

How the bejaysus is it racist to know that someone is a Protestant!? I played music with an English lad for years, am I a racist now because I knew he was English? In hindsight, he was probably a Protestant too, I must be doubly racist.

People really having issues reading today!

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

People really having issues reading today!

What is your understanding here Shef...what do you think happened to the Protestant population after independence and why?

Fionn1952

Shefwedfan wrote: »

People really having issues reading today!

You heavily implied the previous poster was a racist for knowing that someone was a Protestant. No reading comprehension issues here.

Do you need a full time line of events to catch up on your nonsense? Or perhaps you could just acknowledge your flippant remark about racism had no real context, was a misguided attempt at a slur and move on?

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is your understanding here Shef...what do you think happened to the Protestant population after independence and why?

No Francie, I asked you. Yet to hear a response. We can all wait while you ramble on.

Shefwedfan

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You heavily implied the previous poster was a racist for knowing that someone was a Protestant. No reading comprehension issues here.

Do you need a full time line of events to catch up on your nonsense? Or perhaps you could just acknowledge your flippant remark about racism had no real context, was a misguided attempt at a slur and move on?

I cannot help you if you incapable of reading and following a thread.

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No Francie, I asked you. Yet to hear a response. We can all wait while you ramble on.

I gave a synopsis from a letter which ties in with my view...I have also said jm08 was posting the same studies I posted before in conversations with downcow.

Here is that synopsis again. No amount of attacking the source will cover for the fact that you are avoiding giving your own opinion:

The exodus of tens of thousands of Protestants from the Irish Free State heralding the decline in the Protestant population was not as a result of sectarianism, intimidation or land-grabbing. Such views clearly promote a sectarian narrative about republican actions during the War of Independence and is not supported by evidence. Although some Irish Protestants were victims of a process of expulsion, coercion, and in some cases murder – acts which would have been abhorred by those who planned the Easter Rising – there are reasons other than those suggested by Prof Townshend.

A significant contributor to this population decline can be identified with the Great War and aggressively encouraged Protestant relocation north. The horrific slaughter of young Irish Protestant men in the first World War had a devastating and disproportionate impact on the male Protestant population of the South.

This was reflected in the birth rate for decades following the war. In addition, the Northern Ireland regime led by Sir James Craig enticed large numbers of Protestants, through the offer of government jobs and housing, to relocate north of the Border in an attempt to offset Catholic majorities in Border counties. Some in government service chose to leave with their families rather than enter the civil/public service of the Free State.

In addition, there was a large British military establishment in Ireland which was stood down in 1922. This group was disproportionately Protestant.

Others left because they no longer enjoyed social and official privilege being Protestant once brought.


Furthermore, the strong religious, cultural and political ties which southern Protestants had in common with the northern majority resulted in a sizable shift of Protestants north across the Border.

It is worth noting that two Protestants who decided to stay south subsequently became presidents of Ireland.

cameramonkey

Charlie so aptly called it, a failed political entity. Perfect concise description.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I gave a synopsis from a letter which ties in with my view...I have also said jm08 was posting the same studies I posted before in conversations with downcow.

Here is that synopsis again. No amount of attacking the source will cover for the fact that you are avoiding giving your own opinion:

Your letter to the paper :p:p


Yes Francie. That is exactly what I expected.



P.S. if you had the capacity to read the thread I already published details on the webpage plus even a nice colour image from the webpage to help you out.

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Your letter to the paper :p:p


Yes Francie. That is exactly what I expected.



P.S. if you had the capacity to read the thread I already published details on the webpage plus even a nice colour image from the webpage to help you out.

That isn't an opinion though...it's a picture of something we all know , that the population declined.

And if you wish and are silly enough I can write out the bullet points in that letter in my own words...could you avoid the question any longer one wonders if I did that?

Five Eighth

“I was in earnest. What a fool I was. I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into power.” – Edward Carson (1921)

Some things do not change no matter how much the unionist people of Northern Ireland wish they might. When Alexander Boris de Pfellel Johnson was spewing nonsense to the yelping DUPes at the last Tory Party conference, it brought to mind the image of a crocodile trainer feeding the crocs.

Sunny Disposition

To come back to the original question, is there any way you could look at Northern Ireland as a success, by the standards of the rest of the UK or the Republic of Ireland? I can't see how, given the economy which depends disproportionately on public spending and the very divided population, something seen in very few other Western countries.
It's going to be interesting to see if the centenary prompts some reflection among Unionist intellectuals.

jm08

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

To come back to the original question, is there any way you could look at Northern Ireland as a success, by the standards of the rest of the UK or the Republic of Ireland? I can't see how, given the economy which depends disproportionately on public spending and the very divided population, something seen in very few other Western countries.
It's going to be interesting to see if the centenary prompts some reflection among Unionist intellectuals.

It suits a lot of unionists to be dependent on the UK to keep them afloat because they can use that as an economic argument for remaining in the UK. Unionists have always looked to the UK and Commonwealth countries for business (for example, their buses and trains manufacturers were targetting GB, Canada and Far East customers), but they were also competing with Glasgow, Sunderland, Newcastle and South Wales for this same business which they were on a level playing pitch with.



They were unable to compete with the Republic for US FDI because it was much easier for US companies to access decision makers and of course the old 12.5% tax rate. I've also heard that US FDI were less kean on NI because for 2 months of the year during the marching season, they all go dolally. The situation at Sean Quinns old businesses won't help in attracting FDI into NI either.


The constitutional question isn't going to go away, but I think unionists will keep trying to avoid it until they eventually just run out of road. At that stage, there will only be a way up for NI.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That isn't an opinion though...it's a picture of something we all know , that the population declined.

And if you wish and are silly enough I can write out the bullet points in that letter in my own words...could you avoid the question any longer one wonders if I did that?

What question Francie? what question?

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What question Francie? what question?

Why do you think the Protestant population declined. Pretty simple ask, given you are rejecting the reasons anyone else is putting forward.