Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

saabsaab

downcow wrote: »

You want us as well saabsaab don't you. What do you find so sexy about us?

Must be the accent.

FrancieBrady

saabsaab wrote: »

We should try to give the Unionists a warm reception whenever the unification happens. Apart from what I said already about flags and anthems perhaps the Queen of England could do ceremonial occasions with Michael D or perhaps share on a week on week off basis? Queen opens new shopping centre in Cork or M D opens a new school in the Shankill Road.

It will be up to Unionists themselves how a UI goes for them. If they withdraw from the running of the state like many of them did here after independence (not them all as we know) then it won't be easy on them.
Very interesting book by a protestant from Cork I read talks about this and my partners COI family talk of it as well. Those protestants who removed themselves from the running of the state tended to move away and not come back and never found a feeling of belonging.

declanflynn

downcow wrote: »

Originally Posted by downcow View Post
Can we have a wee link please



just as i thought declan - it exists in your head

its there if u look, but that might be beyond you

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Yeah I won't completely deny that. But at least our boy has married us hahahah

We might be a bolox to live with and all that, but we are not chasing someone who has rejected us again and again and again for 100 years hahahah - have a wee bit of respect for yourselves and stop stalking this wee place you find so attractive

You realise that the sensible amongst us have no interest in wooing you and your bigoted brethren. I wouldn't worry about it. You're as interesting and as important to a United Ireland as penguins or whale blubber.

Capt'n Midnight

blanch152 wrote: »

This isn't 1970 when the size and wealth of the EU and the US meant they would have been in a position to subsidise a united Ireland which was relatively poor. A lot has changed since then, there are a lot more deserving cases in Eastern Europe who haven't received a penny.

It isn't going to happen.

Brexit means that nine out of the ten poorest regions in Northern Europe have left the EU

Northern Ireland is one of those areas.

Developmental aid to part of a small country that had been annexed by a bigger neighbour ?
No idea how you are going to sell that concept in most of mainland Europe :rolleyes:

It's like asking if the French have ever heard of Alsace-Lorraine or if the Germans have a word for reunification or if rich countries like Italy want to limit EU aid to their own regions.

And the EU is a peace project going right back.



And it wouldn't be long term. A proper peace dividend should boost the economy. Cheaper than the bank bailout.

FrancieBrady

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Brexit means that nine out of the ten poorest regions in Northern Europe have left the EU

Northern Ireland is one of those areas.

Never thought of it like that.

Developmental aid to part of a small country that had been annexed by a bigger neighbour ?
No idea how you are going to sell that concept in most of mainland Europe :rolleyes:

It's like asking if the French have ever heard of Alsace-Lorraine or if the Germans have a word for reunification or if rich countries like Italy want to limit EU aid to their own regions.

And the EU is a peace project going right back.



And it wouldn't be long term. A proper peace dividend should boost the economy. Cheaper than the bank bailout.

You might say - it's what the EU does. The idea that they wouldn't support an ordered and democratic unification is absurd. The idea that they wouldn't underwrite what is in the best interests of the EU equally so.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

You want us as well saabsaab don't you. What do you find so sexy about us?

I don't know how a grown adult can continually persist with this metaphor. It's bloody creepy! Have an adult conversation without this weird subtext, Downcow.

We're discussing politics, not getting the ride.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I don't know how a grown adult can continually persist with this metaphor. It's bloody creepy! Have an adult conversation without this weird subtext, Downcow.

We're discussing politics, not getting the ride.

I am simply demonstrating how creepy persistent and embarrassing you should feel to continually crave after a union with another who does not want a union.
I completely understand and respect those living in ni who want a union with roi and live under the sail. That makes sense, but for those currently living under the dail, to be so desperate to get us to join with them against our will sees stalker-like behaviour

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am simply demonstrating how creepy persistent and embarrassing you should feel to continually crave after a union with another who does not want a union.
I completely understand and respect those living in ni who want a union with roi and live under the sail. That makes sense, but for those currently living under the dail, to be so desperate to get us to join with them against our will sees stalker-like behaviour

Again, a post riddled with the 'ownership' complex. That you and your community's future could be the only one worthy of consideration.

bocaman

Northern Ireland has been a complete and utter failure. A sectarian state based on a raw headcount on religious belief. Personally I believe a United Ireland by peaceful means is the only way forward. Consent being the operative word. The input of the unionist population into this United Ireland will only be positive. If changing the flag and national anthem are required then so be. If people wish to keep their British identity then so be it. Of course not everyone will wish to stay and some unionists will move to mainland Britain. Their loss. The British dont want them and will forever regard them as Irish.

UDAWINNER

downcow wrote: »

I am simply demonstrating how creepy persistent and embarrassing you should feel to continually crave after a union with another who does not want a union.
I completely understand and respect those living in ni who want a union with roi and live under the sail. That makes sense, but for those currently living under the dail, to be so desperate to get us to join with them against our will sees stalker-like behaviour

Imagine how the Irish in the north felt when they were forced to become british. They will have their chance at some stage to rectify this when a border poll comes up in a decade or two. If that happens, at least the loyalists won't have the threat of being burnt out of their homes, being interned for long periods, having police arrest them for no reason. or protestant solicitors being murdered in collusion with gardai.Finally if they don't want to be part of Ireland, they can go across the water as Arelene as said she would.

FrancieBrady

bocaman wrote: »

Northern Ireland has been a complete and utter failure. A sectarian state based on a raw headcount on religious belief. Personally I believe a United Ireland by peaceful means is the only way forward. Consent being the operative word. The input of the unionist population into this United Ireland will only be positive. If changing the flag and national anthem are required then so be. If people wish to keep their British identity then so be it. Of course not everyone will wish to stay and some unionists will move to mainland Britain. Their loss. The British dont want them and will forever regard them as Irish.

Just to say, it was a sectarian state because Unionists resisted the original proposed partition of 9 counties because they wanted to be the dominant political and religious class. The British acceded to that and in a weak gesture to democracy imposed a voting system to attempt to address the imbalance. Unionists immediately set about changing the voting system. Their intent was clear from the start.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Never thought of it like that.



You might say - it's what the EU does. The idea that they wouldn't support an ordered and democratic unification is absurd. The idea that they wouldn't underwrite what is in the best interests of the EU equally so.

Yes, they will support various projects in the different regions as they always have. But they are not going to ensure there is no increases in tax in the Republic by funding it in its entirety.

That opinion poll shows how little appetite there is in the Republic to pay for a UI. Will the EU funding that would only come after unification and have to be applied for periodically be enough to convince the Republic that it's a low risk proposition?

jh79

jh79 wrote: »

................

That opinion poll shows how little appetite there is in the Republic to pay for a UI. Will the EU funding that would only come after unification and have to be applied for periodically be enough to convince the Republic that it's a low risk proposition?

I'd imagine not.
For most folk in the ROI a UI offers next to no benefit.......... and as well as that most folk are quite happy to be the ROI that they grew up in.

BonnieSituation

Augeo wrote: »

I'd imagine not.
For most folk in the ROI a UI offers next to no benefit.......... and as well as that most folk are quite happy to be the ROI that they grew up in.

Another post of vacuous far reaching nonsensical assumptions...

What are your thoughts on the matter?

BonnieSituation

jh79 wrote: »

Yes, they will support various projects in the different regions as they always have. But they are not going to ensure there is no increases in tax in the Republic by funding it in its entirety.

That opinion poll shows how little appetite there is in the Republic to pay for a UI. Will the EU funding that would only come after unification and have to be applied for periodically be enough to convince the Republic that it's a low risk proposition?

Is the "tax" bogeyman the only one you have?

jh79

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Is the "tax" bogeyman the only one you have?

Not just my bogeyman. The opinion poll was a survey of 933 with an accuracy of +/- 3%.

https://banda.ie/wp-content/uploads/Sunday-Times-Apr-2019-Report.pdf

They would want to have been very unlucky to have randomly selected "partitionists":D

BonnieSituation

The only thing you peddle on here is the tax bogeyman. You've little else to say on the matter either positive or negative. I just wonder who it is you're trying to convince?

blanch152

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Brexit means that nine out of the ten poorest regions in Northern Europe have left the EU

Northern Ireland is one of those areas.

Developmental aid to part of a small country that had been annexed by a bigger neighbour ?
No idea how you are going to sell that concept in most of mainland Europe :rolleyes:

It's like asking if the French have ever heard of Alsace-Lorraine or if the Germans have a word for reunification or if rich countries like Italy want to limit EU aid to their own regions.

And the EU is a peace project going right back.



And it wouldn't be long term. A proper peace dividend should boost the economy. Cheaper than the bank bailout.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP

Two of the top three regions in the EU are in Ireland, according to Eurostat.

I would expect the Polish, Hungarians and Czechs to look at that and tell us to sort our own problems out, they won't be giving anything other than a token, not to mention the three Baltic countries.

You have to remember that the amount given by us to the former Warsaw Pact countries was minimal and they will remember that.

As I keep saying, the idea that the EU will bail out a united Ireland is 1970s thinking based on a much smaller EC. As for the US, they are more interested in impoverishing us by taking their tech and pharma companies back than in giving aid to Northern Ireland.

BonnieSituation

blanch152 wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP

Two of the top three regions in the EU are in Ireland, according to Eurostat.

I would expect the Polish, Hungarians and Czechs to look at that and tell us to sort our own problems out, they won't be giving anything other than a token, not to mention the three Baltic countries.

You have to remember that the amount given by us to the former Warsaw Pact countries was minimal and they will remember that.

As I keep saying, the idea that the EU will bail out a united Ireland is 1970s thinking based on a much smaller EC. As for the US, they are more interested in impoverishing us by taking their tech and pharma companies back than in giving aid to Northern Ireland.

We. Are. The. EU.

I think it's more wishful thinking on your part for it to not happen.

And bailing out? It's clear to see how you view these matters. You Partitionists love the transactional.

blanch152

BonnieSituation wrote: »

We. Are. The. EU.

I think it's more wishful thinking on your part for it to not happen.

And bailing out? It's clear to see how you view these matters. You Partitionists love the transactional.

Tax increases in the South are needed to pay for a united Ireland, that is clear.

The counter argument that money will be available from the EU or the US is bogus.

The only other option is that we reduce social welfare rates in the South to Northern Ireland levels, don't think that is a runner somehow.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The counter argument that money will be available from the EU or the US is bogus.

Hw do you know this?

jh79

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The only thing you peddle on here is the tax bogeyman. You've little else to say on the matter either positive or negative. I just wonder who it is you're trying to convince?

No comments on the survey?

My stance is clear, I'll vote no if the economics are not to my liking.

Not my problem that the insecure republicans on here don't what to discuss the huge financial commitment a UI would be.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Hw do you know this?

I have explained why already.

You sound like Michael Gove telling the British people there will be no problem retiring to the sun after Brexit.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I have explained why already.

You sound like Michael Gove telling the British people there will be no problem retiring to the sun after Brexit.

Where have you 'explained' already? A feeling in your waters that the Hungarians, Polish and whoever might be unhappy is not worth diddly as an explanation.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where have you 'explained' already? A feeling in your waters that the Hungarians, Polish and whoever might be unhappy is not worth diddly as an explanation.

A feeling in my waters is more concrete than the fantastical dreams of unicorns and rainbows from the US and the EU that will pay for a united Ireland.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

A feeling in my waters is more concrete than the fantastical dreams of unicorns and rainbows from the US and the EU that will pay for a united Ireland.

A 'dream' based on the long history of the EU. A 'dream' based on the profound fact that a successful UI is now in the interests of all the other members of the EU.

ELM327

blanch152 wrote: »

A feeling in my waters is more concrete than the fantastical dreams of unicorns and rainbows from the US and the EU that will pay for a united Ireland.

Not as if there's any precedent for the EU paying, or anything of course

pixelburp

Isn't there a chicken & egg element to this entire train of thought? Seems like no party or power structure is going to call for a Border Poll until there's some semblance of belief it could be successful. But if and when that happens, presumably the question of taxation or "the cost" of unification would become less relevant or uncomfortable - be that because of the emotional sway of the prospect, or any other black magic that can inform a country's desires. You'd imagine there'll be paper produced outlining the costs, be they true or fudged.

What I've not seen, and do maintain scepticism towards would be: what do unionists get? Let's say in 30 years the demographics swing to an extent whereby soft Unionism constitutes (say) 20% of the Northern Irish population. Obviously, they'll vote against unification but then where do they fit into this new country? They'll still be new citizens of a country they didn't wish to be in, but fairness and empathy dictate some leeway is given towards their status. What would be the best way to do this? Simply going "like or lump it" will only extend the possibility of violence - which would be on everyone's minds the moment NI merged with the REpublic.

FrancieBrady

pixelburp wrote: »

Isn't there a chicken & egg element to this entire train of thought? Seems like no party or power structure is going to call for a Border Poll until there's some semblance of belief it could be successful. But if and when that happens, presumably the question of taxation or "the cost" of unification would become less relevant or uncomfortable - be that because of the emotional sway of the prospect, or any other black magic that can inform a country's desires. You'd imagine there'll be paper produced outlining the costs, be they true or fudged.

What I've not seen, and do maintain scepticism towards would be: what do unionists get? Let's say in 30 years the demographics swing to an extent whereby soft Unionism constitutes (say) 20% of the Northern Irish population. Obviously, they'll vote against unification but then where do they fit into this new country? They'll still be new citizens of a country they didn't wish to be in, but fairness and empathy dictate some leeway is given towards their status. What would be the best way to do this? Simply going "like or lump it" will only extend the possibility of violence - which would be on everyone's minds the moment NI merged with the REpublic.

You enshrine their rights and rights to their identity in an agreement similar to the GFA. If it is considered of any worth that could be an internationally binding agreement with Britain.