How practical was our education, really?

Rob Humanoid

Hello,

I'm in my late forties, so I can't speak for the younger generation (or their education system). But I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on this matter.

I'm still quite resentful about the Irish Educational system growing up in the 70s and 80s.

I'm still confused why we had to learn so much rubbish instead of learning important life skills or subjects that we had an aptitude or interest in. Don't get me wrong, education is obviously critical in a functioning society, and obviously one needs a broad vista to begin with.

I wished school had been more focused on peoples skills and interest. For example, I was terrible at math. I always felt basic math would have been plenty for me over my life. But yet, I spent years learning silly equations and formulas (that I never understood or wanted to). And have no relevance in my life today, and have not helped me get a career. Of course, for other people, who want to pursue a career in advanced math it's critical (sciences, etc). Good on them!

I'd also been learning French for nearly 7 years. What for? I've been to France twice in my entire adult life. What if I wanted to emigrate to another country? Is it really practical to learn a foreign language that you'll never use, if you have no interest in it. Surely for me, I could have put that time into another subject that I had an interest in.

Ordinance survey maps? :rolleyes: Religion? I wasn't taught first aid either.
Music Theory on a recorder, really? Music Appreciation? Having to play rugby?

Anyway, what I'm saying is, that boy did I waste a lot of time learning stuff that I'd never use over my entire adult life. I'd like to see a system that is more focused on the individual and where their talents lie.

Does anyone else feel the same? I really hope the system has changed.

Incidentally... I became a professional artist/graphic designer and sound designer. School did not help me here. Obviously college did.

Thanks,

Rob.

PS - Yes, my grammar and spelling suck. That's why I design stuff for a living.

James Brown

Learning by rote really sucked any interest out of many a topic.
Yes, religion. At least I learned enough to decide to stop being Catholic.

utyh2ikcq9z76b

Didn't it set you up for getting out of bed going somewhere and obeying orders 5 days a week.

Seamai

In relation to maths it was by far my worst subject, in a 5th year exam I got 10% and scraped a D in pass maths in the LC with some pretty intensive grinds but the thing is I'm actually really good with figures, I always have been, I can do all the basics in my head without ever having to resort to a calculator and at 55 the basics along with things like percentages and fractions are all I ever needed. However, where I fell down was on the other stuff, the things I never use, algebra, theroms, logarithmic tables and geometry. I remember once in 6th year when struggling with the simplest algebra equation and asking the teacher to explain to me when this might be of use in in adult life and his response was "it's on the syllabus, so you have to learn it"

RandomViewer

I was happy enough with mine, Maths(honours) ,English, tech drawing ,building construction, woodwork, metalwork, science and art, PE and religion (usually free class) once a week. Depends where you lived and what school you went to

you've to manage groups of thirty odd rascals in an enclosed space for seven hours a day while covering the basics that each of them might want to have without them killing each other or anyone else

id say we do ok as a rule tbh

joe40

"Education is what remains when everything you learned has been forgotten" apparently said by Einstein but I can't be sure.
We only know what we do all the time. All knowledge and facts will be forgotten it is the skills, work ethic, and personal interactions that are important.

NeonCookies

I'd be thinking on the same lines as Joe40.

I suppose it depends on what you see as being the purpose of school e.g. is it to train you for your chosen job / provide you with a wide base of knowledge / expose you to subjects and develop skills across a range of areas help you to find out what your interests are. Quite possibly all of these things.

I 100% agree that for Maths and English in particular there should be practical courses available which focus mainly on everyday life skills - percentages, fractions, understanding graphs, budgeting, form filling, letter writing, job applications, record keeping, reading comprehension, practical written expression etc.

For the likes of the options such as music, history, geography, art etc I do think it's important to have a grounding (or to have had opportunity to get a grounding) in a wide range of areas even if you don't necessarily use the knowledge everyday. My career is not something that falls into any of the typical school subjects, but I certainly do not consider my studies a waste of time. For example, going for a walk and wondering what type of valley / rock that is and being able to give an educated guess (admittedly knowledge is often refreshed and checked using Google, but I know enough to know rocks are formed in different ways for example which gives an appreciation for the world around us), hearing a piece of music and appreciating the layers of instrumentation in it, thinking critically about a news article using critical thinking skills first learned in history etc. Languages is another one that while you may not use it (I studied French but ended up living in Spain for two years) they develop your understanding of a culture, see that other languages may not function in the same way as your own, and you get the opportunity to appreciate how hard it is for others to learn English etc. There can be many benefits of learning that extend beyond the actual subject matter and this should be highlighted more I think.

Disclaimer: I certainly did not think this way when I was a teenager and teenagers likely wouldn't care if you explain it, but it's something I can appreciate now!

petronius

Often how you take to a subject and how well you do is teacher dependent

One thing which was good about the LC system, is you were some what forced to do a combination of disciplines.
Most on top of Irish, English and Math, had to do a Science Subject, a Business subject and a foreign language, and another academic subject, often if you were interested in business or science it would be another one of those.

In some countries you are forced to specify at 16 and often then drop a STEM or Business or Academic subject, which is too young.

I think the points system of the CAO often punishes those who do the "harder" subjects, one of my colleagues, she did Biology, Geography and Business, since they would be easier for her to get points for what she wanted to do in college, she ended up transferring and training as a teacher funnily enough

I know an economist, who wanted to do chemistry, did biology and chemistry, forced to do economics as well, which he complained about - but by 6th year

jester77

I'd be of a similar mindset to yourself OP. Although I wouldn't rule out the French. I did German myself, didn't have too much interest in it, but I ended up in Germany 20 years ago, and the bit that I did learn was invaluable and it came back fast. Still here today. There are a lot of things that they should teach more of in school - taxes, nutrition, economics, politics, etc are of much more importance than alot of what they teach.

Although I do like the improvements in the education system compared to when I was going. My son doesn't spend too much time at his desk, most of it is now hands on and interactive. Keeps the kids interested compared to sitting at a desk the whole day listening to someone drone on. Plus the continuous assessments are so much better than one all or nothing exam at the end.

petronius

At best I would say it is mixed. No doubt language teaching should benefit from access to content on the interent in different languages. Some years ago language teacher i know found some of the tranlations done as home work were obviously google tranlate and cheating using the open book of the interent.

Arithmetic skills are not what they were, because of the constant presence of a caluclator on your phone.
Technology is only going to increase its contribution to education - but even now i think there is an over dependence on it.
The skill you learn in school and college, should be how to learn and this can be applied to different spheres

On a course with business graduates, on brainstorming, I asked them to close their laptops and turn off their phones and describe the problem, list similar situations and examples - i may as well told them the pubs would be closed for 6 months!

Eric Cartman

learning engineering (metalwork) , tech drawing and woodwork absolutely helped in my career , learning German has helped and I've become more fluent since school. Thats where it ends

Irish was taught so poorly it made me hate my national language. Religion was a pointless class, maths was taught the wrong way to suit students for whom rote learning wasn't their forte.

School is obviously important but there are other models need to be explored, theres a hell of a lot of kids for whom, like myself the leaving cert was more an excercise in finding the rare few practical subjects to earn much needed points rather than providing pathways into more practical learning. A hell of a lot of young lads who'd make great engineers were it only for the same maths course designed to raise accountants, scientists and maths teachers.

JasonStatham

I used to think this about calculus in school. But then I did a Physics degree and I could see what it's really used for. But such maths is hardly practical for your average student.

I don't think learning French is impractical, but I think you should be allowed to opt out for something more vocational (God knows what that could be - programming maybe?) if you're not academically inclined.

completedit

Education system is terrible. History, Geography, Economics, Business. Then Maths, English, French, Irish and Spanish.

Honestly a complete and utter waste of my teenage years. I liked economics and history and ended up studying economics to master's level. But still just awful. The Leaving Cert and the whole secondary school system takes away any agency from the student; you end up going to college as a passive rote learning idiot.

The problem with the LC and school's in Ireland is that the teachers view every student based on the aggregate of their performance. There's no awareness that the student might excel or have an interest in certain areas.

Pythagorean

joe40 wrote: »

"Education is what remains when everything you learned has been forgotten" apparently said by Einstein but I can't be sure.
We only know what we do all the time. All knowledge and facts will be forgotten it is the skills, work ethic, and personal interactions that are important.

That quote was said by a well known psychologist, it was a question on University Challenge this evening !! I got a good Honours leaving Cert decades ago now, but if I was to resit the same exam today I would score zero, or close to it. However, something indefinable remains, a mental sharpness, a breadth of knowledge, an appreciation of culture. so I don't think it was wasted. A purely utilitarian education, or training, may put money in your pocket, but just to take an example, say if one studied Physics for Leaving Cert, one would be better placed to think rationally about controversial issues such as High Voltage power lines, Nuclear power, etc. So, what seemed like pointless drudgery as a teenager may prove its worth in later life.

Damien360

completedit wrote: »

Education system is terrible. History, Geography, Economics, Business. Then Maths, English, French, Irish and Spanish.

I’ll go against the trend In thread a bit.

From your above list :

History - hugely important that we learn from past mistakes and don’t end up like the Brits one dimensional view of the empire. Recent events and the waffle Trump claims is history was taken as gospel by his legion. Your history in school stands to you if similar occurs here.

Geography - I cringe when I see people in the US with an inability to find whole states in their own country. As for their ability to find places outside the US, it’s non-existent. I bet you could easily find plenty (not all) of countries all over the world and possibly their capitals from a globe. Don’t knock that education.

Economics/Business - this is a basic grounding in some accountancy, and in general how the business world works. Good to know some of it. Bank loans and understanding variable rates should be drilled into everyone.

Maths - depends on your job. I use it constantly in mine. At the very least being able to calculate quickly what is a bargain and what is not one is crucial. I did Applied Maths also which was tough but a fantastic view into the various uses of maths.

English - I would have Shakespeare shot from a cannon. For those that don’t read books, the novels in the LC were a decent introduction. God forbid text speak becomes the new normal and at least we can thank English class for keeping that away from those of us old enough.

Languages including Irish - here I agree with you. we truly haven’t a clue how to teach these. Conjugate the verb in French and Irish for me. Striving for perfection instead of speaking abilities. I learned more in 6 months from a substitute French teacher in third year than I did for the 2 years previous and the 2 years after. She taught it with no paper and it was all speech. Had enough to try in France on holidays and they interjected because I tried and spoke English.

I haven’t a word of Irish. Can read it and work out some of it but couldn’t speak it. Such a shame after so many years “learning” it. Foreign language should taught by a foreign language speaker. Not sure what to do with Irish but I still think it should be conversation only and if you want perfection then off to third level with you.

Religion - just no. Has actively driven me away from religion. I’m a cynic by nature and miracles just don’t wash with me.

joseywhales

What you learn is not really important, it's more important that you develop an enjoyment of learning something, so that you know that you have some curiosity and the confidence to learn anything if you want.

Also learning how to learn is vital.

Sometimes crap teachers are very empowering.

AllForIt

I was lucky. I went to a so called 'tech' school. I learned to use a saw, a drill, a needle, a cooker, amongst other things. You know, practical stuff in case you don't make millions and you have to do things for yourself in your everyday life.

So, very practical as it turned out.

Rob Humanoid

Thanks for all the valuable insights and opinions! I should point out again that I think a good education is absolutely vital. And I agree, you need a good 'round' foundation for a starting off point. Basic math and reading/writing are critical to a high standard.

Some of the more 'esoteric skills' that have been mentioned here already. I feel I didn't get out of my secondary school at all to be honest. Such as, the love of learning, a good work ethic, trying to be a decent person, interest in other cultures, and music appreciation. If anything, it pretty much put me off many of those. And especially the love of learning - that was stolen from me the moment I stepped into secondary school. At the time I kept thinking, 'why am I learning this stuff? I'll never use it.' And I was right, from my perspective anyway.

Just regarding some of the more esoteric skills. I feel like I acquired them elsewhere. Trying to be a decent human from my parents. A good work ethic from my Dad. Who wouldn’t let me lounge about during the holidays. The love of learning comes from my own insatiable brain. It never stops wanting to learn. Music appreciation came from my own love of music. It had nothing to do with the material I was forced to learn in school. I've been in bands for years and have become very adept with a DAW (or digital audio workstation).

Interesting… Regarding ‘critical thinking’ this for me, never came from school. If anything the opposite was true. ‘This is what you are learning anything else is wrong. Don’t question… Just learn’. I think it was my own skeptical nature that started me questioning everything. That type of thinking was never talked about. I can’t speak for today's education.

The interest in other languages still eludes me. OP mentioned that they got interested in cultures because they learned a foreign language. That’s cool! But for me, we only ever learned the syllabus and had no time for learning about the country per se. But YMMV!

Unless I was going to emigrate to that particular country, I'd argue that all that time learning something that you'd never use was a waste of time. I mean, you could have done something much more useful. At one point, recently, I was thinking about emigrating to Sweden. The first thing I would have done would be to learn the language. And all my French would have been thoroughly wasted anyway.

Again, this is all quite personal. So I can't say it applies to anyone else. But I also detested learning English literature. Poetry and the ye' oldy Silas Marner stuff. I developed a love of literature, not from them. But from my Mum who introduced me to horror from a young age. And I've never stopped reading and writing horror books even to this day.

One poster mentioned about hating Irish. I'm the same... Can't speak two words of it. And like OP, this was not down to the subject of our national language. But the truly god awful teachers I had. I had many over the years, and only one was a good geezer in 5th year. But by that stage it was far too late and the damage had been done. Only in my later years I've become interested in the language again. Who knows I might even get some tuition. Just for interests sake.

I still think education should be far more focused on the pupil, their aptitudes and their interests - The English A levels seem more logical (but the standard is lower so I believe). A lot is said about the Scandinavian educations systems too. But I can’t really comment as I don’t know much about them.

Much of the time the teachers were poor at best. And I did go to one of the better fee paying schools in South Co. Dublin. I repeated my Leaving Cert in New Park Comprehensive, and boy do I wish I'd gone there instead. For that last year at least, I was treated like an adult. That was a great experience. Maybe my whole experience would have been better. In fact, it was one of those teachers in NP who said. Go to art college. And I did...

I really wish I'd gone to a more tech school also. I’d love to have some good DIY and practical skills. Stuff, as 'ALLForIT' said, skills you could use in your everyday life.

Cheers and sorry for the waffly reply.

Rob.

riffmongous

I wouldn't say time spent learning a particular language is wasted if you instead need to learn a different one.. depending on how you learned the first one. If you picked up a grasp of how languages actually work grammatically then you'll find it much easier to learn the next one. It's why Latin is still a useful language to learn at second level, even though you'll never use it again. But if all you got was a few phrases then yeah, you'll struggle.

Danzy

The whole thing is very bad all together.

Fierce black.

Padre_Pio

I agree with most of the posters here, it's good to get a foundational knowledge, but most of the courses are taught purely for the sake of it. There's hardly any link to what you're learning and actual, real world examples.

But that said, how can there be? As Tommy Tiernan said, a teacher is someone who loves school so much they never leave it. How can that person find real world parallels for their subjects?

It reminds me of our guidance counselor, a lovely man, but a teacher who's only relevant experience was looking for a teaching job once over 30 years ago. How is he going to guide anyone in career choices?

My only suggestion would be the senior cycle is 3 years instead of 2. Why is JC a 3 year stint and LC 2 years?

Secondly, students should be allowed to specialise, and double up on courses they're interested in.
You like maths? Or history or English, or chemistry?
Well you can double up on that course and drop something you've no interest in.

Your exam is obviously tougher, but you're not struggling learning something you have little interest in.

smellyoldboot

I actually found most of the subjects offered in my secondary school for leaving cert were very geared toward practical careers: Technology (Basic Mech/Electrical Engineering), Construction Studies (Civil Engineering), The 3 "hard" sciences, Business Studies, Accounting and the mandatory stuff. You could do History, Geography and French/German if you wished but no Art or Music, was kinda geared toward the traditional "male" career options. Early 2000s.

True to form most of the lads with careers out if it now are in trades or engineering of some sort.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

What's essential for life that is currently on the syallabus?
Well, Maths and English unti lthe age of about 14 (if you don't have enough written/reading/maths for average life by then, SOMETHING has gone wrong)
And that's about it.

I'd argue science, but it's not a core subject (although it should be).

Other things like metal/woodwork are useful but not essential. Some others; yes - if you have an interest in doing them professionally.

Everything else is padding.

Padre_Pio

smellyoldboot wrote: »

I actually found most of the subjects offered in my secondary school for leaving cert were very geared toward practical careers: Technology (Basic Mech/Electrical Engineering), Construction Studies (Civil Engineering), The 3 "hard" sciences, Business Studies, Accounting and the mandatory stuff. You could do History, Geography and French/German if you wished but no Art or Music, was kinda geared toward the traditional "male" career options. Early 2000s.

True to form most of the lads with careers out if it now are in trades or engineering of some sort.

All boys school?

smellyoldboot

Padre_Pio wrote: »

All boys school?

How'd ya guess? lol

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

smellyoldboot wrote: »

How'd ya guess? lol

The erection, probably.

Goodshape

You're learning how to learn, if nothing else. What would you prefer to have been doing at that time?

I feel like I got a decent and rounded education with enough free time and support to pursue my own interests during my school years.

NeonCookies

Rob Humanoid wrote:

Just regarding some of the more esoteric skills. I feel like I acquired them elsewhere. Trying to be a decent human from my parents. A good work ethic from my Dad. Who wouldn’t let me lounge about during the holidays. The love of learning comes from my own insatiable brain. It never stops wanting to learn. Music appreciation came from my own love of music. It had nothing to do with the material I was forced to learn in school. I've been in bands for years and have become very adept with a DAW (or digital audio workstation).

100% agree with this. While it is a great opportunity if it works for you, school isn't the only place we can learn and definitely shouldn't be considered to be. My fiance is a super intelligent guy but really struggled to focus and appreciate the value of school when he was young, and tbh that environment just wasn't for him. I work with young people now in similar situations who struggle to "buy in" to school, but have immense intelligence and cop on that will stand to them as long as they get some guidance and the basic skills as you said. Our parents are so crucial also.

Rob Humanoid wrote:

Interesting… Regarding ‘critical thinking’ this for me, never came from school. If anything the opposite was true. ‘This is what you are learning anything else is wrong. Don’t question… Just learn’. I think it was my own skeptical nature that started me questioning everything. That type of thinking was never talked about. I can’t speak for today's education.

I think I got lucky here as my history teacher really focused on this. She drew out and appreciated our opinions. She was a teacher who everyone feared at Junior Cert because she was so strict, but once you got to Senior cycle and particularly 6th year she really treated you like an adult with ideas that were worthy of respect.

I do think we should have more options away from the traditional "academics". I went to an all girls school and there were little to no practical subjects offered.. Technical Drawing ran for two years before the teacher left and it never started up again. I did it for Junior Cert and for an A...could have missed a calling!

While the Leaving Cert could maybe do with being reduced to 5 subjects if that's what the student wants, I feel the UK system is a bit restrictive with 3 subjects. You choose so few A Level subjects that if you changed your mind on what you want to study in university you could be goosed. The subjects I did for my Leaving Cert meant that I would have met basic entry requirements for pretty much any 3rd level course (with the right grades and points of course). In my opinion a breadth of knowledge, rather than depth, is probably more important at that young age but of course everyone is different and some people know exactly what their interests are and what they want to do when they grow up from a very early stage!

ronivek

The education system has to cater for every single child in the nation; and lend itself to being taught to large groups by a single teacher. You might have hated History or Geography; but a few of the people in your class likely enjoyed it. Likewise you might have loved Irish and yet most in your class hated it. In any case even if you dislike a subject you're surely going to pick up some information about the world around you; and I don't think knowing more is ever a bad thing.

The way I see education is that it's there to give kids options; and to let them dabble in things they might enjoy whilst also letting them figure out how to deal with things they don't enjoy but which nevertheless may be valuable. In that respect I think the Irish system isn't so bad.

One thing I would like to see is a separate subject which deals with critical thinking, critical writing, argument, and cognition in a more formal way; rather than the existing approach of trying to teach it implicitly in the context of individual subjects. For example teaching about bias, about consuming Social Media and news media with a critical eye, etc.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Irish - Have an interest in it and would like to use it more in daily life, but never really get the chance.

English - I was actually good at, and it helped me in writing skills and articulation which are very important in my current and previous jobs.

Maths - Never used anything other than basic Maths after my Leaving Cert.

French - Was in France once for about 10 days during Euro 2016, pretty much solely used it to order pints and one night to explain to some locals the difference between the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland and Great Britain and how we hadn't voted for Brexit. Amazing how our next nearest neighbours have such a poor concept of our basic history.

Geography/History - Useful to have a general knowledge in both as per my paragraph on the French.

Biology - Hated it. Was the least of the 3 evils of Science subjects. Never used it and have forgotten most of it.

Religion - lol