How practical was our education, really?

smellyoldboot

Smacruairi wrote: »

See I would see life skills as something the home should provide. Cooking simple meals, changing a plug,like what the hell are the parents doing to not be teaching them, or to want to teach them that? Also, you've a year or 6 year curriculum to teach, how long can your get out of driver theory!

Not trying to be hostile, I agree with some of what you said as a workshop in ty, but come on, are parents looking for schools to teach kids how to wash their teeth too? Oh wait.. Sphe.. So yeah..

Unfortunately we have kids being fed full meals in school due to the level of useless parent we have in some cases. That's the extreme end of the scale but if we want to produce capable young adults we will have to take the view that not all parents can be trusted to fulfill all of their responsibilities.

partyguinness

Our education was not meant to be practical. It is meant to give you skills to think and survive by using and developing your brain.

You learned a lot more than you realise.

petronius

There are good and bad aspects of all education systems.
Our education system was effective in teaching literacy and numeracy skills (although it has got worse in recent decades), sadly often there are thoses who it doesnt succeed with, and in those cases we need some more alternatives.
One thing which is valuable about our system is that most students do have access to (and prettmuch have to do) a science, a business subject, a foreign language and another academic subject as well as irish. english and maths, all the way up to the leaving, rather that refine and limit the scope of subjects they do at 16.

I think modern language schooling has improved, less books more audio and video, helped with the advent of internet and multimedia. I think another language should be mandatory up to leaving, maybe even in primary (wasnt in my day)

I do think maths teaching has gone down hill, it was always difficult, it is sadly worn as a badge of honor to be be bad at maths, or i failed maths in the junior/inter/leaving, no one celebrates saying oh i failed english. How can we improve maths performance, when it is not respected. I think foundation maths limits someones options in the future, that it should only be used as a stepping stone to maybe repeat or do an extra year to imrpove mathematical levels. Many courses will not accept foundation level maths..

Some countries, have very practical couses, like Shop or Driver's Ed. in the US, first-aid, bicycle maintenance, nutrition, cooking, health & hygene etc. (would we have been beter if we all were instructed how to wash the backs of our hands properly in school, or even to know and how to test, to see if your body temperature is normal. P.E. should be Physical Education, not just Sports or Games.

While there is scope for many of things to be shoved into transition year, I think there is merit in every one leaving school to have basic first aid skills, know the rules of the road the safe/green cross code, up to being able to do the driving theory test..

walshb

Being force fed a dead language 4 hours per week certainly wasn’t practical..

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

partyguinness wrote: »

Our education was not meant to be practical. It is meant to give you skills to think and survive by using and developing your brain.

You learned a lot more than you realise.

I'd consider that practical...

NSAman

The schooling was good apart from the Irish component for me.

What a waste of time for me that was. The rest was pretty useful, gave me a good grounding in the basics for future education.

French which I always thought was going to be useless, actually gave me a grounding for living in a french speaking country later in life and has stood me well, giving me a grounding in learning another language (spanish) and also the ability to understand other languages.

Irish....hmmmm.... have never used it since I left school. Still don't understand why I needed to spend so long learning it, in fact it turned me off learning the language and caused a lot of hatred for it.

Things I really wish we did have back in my education were more emphasis on the Arts and Culture. There was absolutely NONE. It was purely the learning by rote method of education.

Sport was fine, in that we had 4 classes a week (twice two classes back to back) still didn't give me an understanding of why exercise is good for me, I had to learn that myself later in life..;)

The primary education I had was simply fantastic back in the day. We were lucky to be schooled in a two room school with someone who made you have a thirst for knowledge and was a fantastic teacher. Secondary, not so much...;)

Jump_In_Jack

English, Irish and Maths should be optional subjects for the Leaving Cert.

Schools should not be required to do religion or PE in LC cycle during school hours.

Schools should not require students to take a 7th subject for the LC.

If students were able to choose all 6 subjects so that they had the ones they were most interested in,
and if they were not forced to waste time on English, Irish, Maths, Religion, PE, and on a 7th subject they may not want to take, then the LC would be a lot more practical.

And Transition Year should be optional in every school, it should not be allowed to be made compulsory in any school.

Smacruairi

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

English, Irish and Maths should be optional subjects for the Leaving Cert.

Schools should not be required to do religion or PE in LC cycle during school hours.

Schools should not require students to take a 7th subject for the LC.

If students were able to choose all 6 subjects so that they had the ones they were most interested in,
and if they were not forced to waste time on English, Irish, Maths, Religion, PE, and on a 7th subject they may not want to take, then the LC would be a lot more practical.

And Transition Year should be optional in every school, it should not be allowed to be made compulsory in any school.

And schools should be linked to a workhouse immediately. Everything optional because students and parents are great at making long distance decisions rather than going with impulse trends. In fact, just ask Facebook and Google to take over the schools.

TY, a chance for real life education and skills in a non pressurised environment? Nonsense, especially at that 15/16 year old age when kids definitely don't act out, making mistakes that could potentially scupper their future.

You have it in one.

Jump_In_Jack

Smacruairi wrote: »

And schools should be linked to a workhouse immediately. Everything optional because students and parents are great at making long distance decisions rather than going with impulse trends. In fact, just ask Facebook and Google to take over the schools.

TY, a chance for real life education and skills in a non pressurised environment? Nonsense, especially at that 15/16 year old age when kids definitely don't act out, making mistakes that could potentially scupper their future.

You have it in one.

I’d certainly rather a system that favours practicality and gives students a less frustrating time in school than what exists now.

You obviously favour having people suffer unnecessarily.

I’m guessing you’re either a teacher or an authoritarian, probably both.

Airyfairy12

completedit wrote: »

Education system is terrible. History, Geography, Economics, Business. Then Maths, English, French, Irish and Spanish.

Honestly a complete and utter waste of my teenage years. I liked economics and history and ended up studying economics to master's level. But still just awful. The Leaving Cert and the whole secondary school system takes away any agency from the student; you end up going to college as a passive rote learning idiot.

The problem with the LC and school's in Ireland is that the teachers view every student based on the aggregate of their performance. There's no awareness that the student might excel or have an interest in certain areas.

I hated school and have used very little of what I learned in those years since finishing. Leaving school and being an adult would have been a much more positive and productive experience if id learned about basic psychology, mental health and coping skills. Also really would have benefited from learning job and career related skills, particularly in areas like leadership, management, first aid etc.
That said I dont think it's fair to blame teachers, there are some terrible teachers but they dont come up with the curriculum or school policy, theyre following orders, doing their jobs and have little to no control in what happens outside of that.

petronius

I think it is essential to have both Mathematics and English, numeracy and literacy are so vital and so many occupations (and every day life) demand that you can write and comprehend the written word, and communicate. Maths is a vital skill, it is necessary for STEM, and for Business, but is also trains the mind. A 7th subject is an insurance policy, and choosing just 6 after you rjunior cert (or trans year) is so narrowing of your options. I also think the 7th subject can allow you to choose a second science or business topic if thats your thing, while making sure you have to do a subject from an alternative stream ..

Irish I am a bit divided on, I am an Irish speaker (vocab needs improving) but I think it has to be compulsory since, if it is not people who can drop it can do another subject to fatten up their CAO points, so if everyone has to do it that equalises things. While I think it should still be mandatory, I think more value should be on Maths and English, should have extra points or the CAO should be calculated on Maths and English and 4 other subjects

Transisition Year was not an option when I was in school, while I see value in it, it can make sure kids are 18 going to college a bit more mature, but also provide space, a time out, to figure out what they want to do, and perhaps sample different topics activities which may inform their decision. Sadly some people transisiton year becomes a doss year, I hear some schools treat it as a 1st year of a 3 year single cycle, instead of it being this different year where you can broaden your horizons.
I dont think it should be forced on kids or parents, some transisition years suits others it doesnt.

PE should be part of every school year, since it is good for mental and physical health, hence the value in it being actual Physical Education, and not just sports or games.

Galwayguy35

Woodwork was the only subject I made use of after I left school.

Although I never needed it I did quite well in history in the LC because I had an interest in it and we had a good teacher as well which helped.

Do they still teach religion as a subject?

Smacruairi

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I’d certainly rather a system that favours practicality and gives students a less frustrating time in school than what exists now.

You obviously favour having people suffer unnecessarily.

I’m guessing you’re either a teacher or an authoritarian, probably both.

I want to make people suffer, I'm an authoritarian... See it's that type of wildcat assumption and binary thinking I would encourage people to avoid,normally when they're afforded time to think and experiment in low pressure environments and settings and experience failure, and then growth. By turning school into a career path you negate the chance for young adults to make those types of choices, and learn from them.
Or you can think that I want people to suffer. Thankfully the ESRI looks at the fact that our literacy and numeracy scores are extremely high, despite the fact that we are the worst funded education system in Europe according to gdp. I'll go with the system we have and tweak, thanks.

Jump_In_Jack

Irish and English literature should be separate subjects and optional, they serve no practical function, are utterly useless after school.
Irish and English should be purely comprehension and translation subjects, so Junior Cert level is as far as that needs to go, by 16 a person will be fully able to read and write with sufficient vocabulary.

Maths becomes useless after Junior Cert to most people.
Only people that want to take a course in 3rd level need to take Maths for Leaving Cert.
It should be optional.

6 subjects is plenty, that’s all you can use for points.
It should be optional to take more than 6 for those that see an advantage in doing so.

Effectively the above is available, most people that are just trying for high points will pick 6 subjects they can score well in, and can take ordinary level Irish and English, and Maths, the only issue is schools still demand attendance for those subjects which is a massive waste of time, and only a distraction from more practical subjects. And schools won’t let students take 9 subjects to make up for taking those 3 at ordinary level, so end up taking subjects outside of school.

I think if you sit Irish, English and Maths once you no longer need to sit them again if you repeat the Leaving Cert.
In that case it would be worth skipping TY and just plan to repeat the Leaving.
Shouldn’t have to game the system like that though, just shows how impractical the system is and isn’t fit for purpose.

Smacruairi

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Irish and English literature should be separate subjects and optional, they serve no practical function, are utterly useless after school.
Irish and English should be purely comprehension and translation subjects, so Junior Cert level is as far as that needs to go, by 16 a person will be fully able to read and write with sufficient vocabulary.

Maths becomes useless after Junior Cert to most people.
Only people that want to take a course in 3rd level need to take Maths for Leaving Cert.
It should be optional.

6 subjects is plenty, that’s all you can use for points.
It should be optional to take more than 6 for those that see an advantage in doing so.

Effectively the above is available, most people that are just trying for high points will pick 6 subjects they can score well in, and can take ordinary level Irish and English, and Maths, the only issue is schools still demand attendance for those subjects which is a massive waste of time, and only a distraction from more practical subjects. And schools won’t let students take 9 subjects to make up for taking those 3 at ordinary level, so end up taking subjects outside of school.

I think if you sit Irish, English and Maths once you no longer need to sit them again if you repeat the Leaving Cert.
In that case it would be worth skipping TY and just plan to repeat the Leaving.
Shouldn’t have to game the system like that though, just shows how impractical the system is and isn’t fit for purpose.

What you're therefore actually decrying then is the CAO system. School is to educate, not to give you points because the colleges are too lazy to come up with ways to matriculate from them.

Jump_In_Jack

Smacruairi wrote: »

What you're therefore actually decrying then is the CAO system. School is to educate, not to give you points because the colleges are too lazy to come up with ways to matriculate from them.

Up to Junior Cert is sufficient for general education.
After that it’s a competition for places in College.
Using a points system is the fairest way to allocate places and I’ve no issue with that system.
Once starting the LC there should be no distractions built in to the education system.
The current system places roadblocks in the way for no discernible reason.

Perhaps the best thing to offer a student would be the option for students to sit the ordinary level papers for English, Irish, Maths and a foreign language in TY, and then start 5th year with 6 subjects of their choice, having already met the matriculation requirements.

PE and religion should not be part of the LC cycle either.
Replace PE with a fitness test instead if that is seen as important.
Religion should be outside of school anyway.

Hawthorn Tree

Junior Cert students do as much Science as they do Religion.
In 2020 this is beyond embarassing.

Smacruairi

Hawthorn Tree wrote: »

Junior Cert students do as much Science as they do Religion.
In 2020 this is beyond embarassing.

While I agree that the amount of religious instruction is excessive, particularly if it is faith formation, seeing as religion is a major motivator for conflict throughout the world and across history, I would caution against removing it totally from schooling. Demystifying the differences between cultures and encouraging a tolerance of diverging opinions, especially ones who go to the core of a considerable number of people around the world can only be seen as somewhat enlightening, and even beneficial should it come to business etc.

whisky_galore

Maths should have been more applied mathematics for practical situations instead of "find x, solve for x shıte", boring as fook. I couldn't have given a monkey's what x was.

Let only people who love Irish continue their love affair beyond primary school and leave the rest of us free to study something we may make use of.

Religion, parents...knock yourself out with that outside of school hours. That'll separate Bouncy Castle Catholics from the rest.

shesty

Then you do engineering and realise that the real life problems in the world consist of "find X", and "solve for X" just not in your stereotypical written-down algebraic equation.It teaches you how to think in a certain way.

I still haven't quite figured out how 4 years of solid maths in many, many forms has taught me how to make a career out of "problem solving" on a day to day basis.... but somehow it has.

amacca

shesty wrote: »

Then you do engineering and realise that the real life problems in the world consist of "find X", and "solve for X" just not in your stereotypical written-down algebraic equation.It teaches you how to think in a certain way.

I still haven't quite figured out how 4 years of solid maths in many, many forms has taught me how to make a career out of "problem solving" on a day to day basis.... but somehow it has.

was just about to say that find X boring as ****e stuff is taught for a reason.....its not a dead language:D

joe40

Hawthorn Tree wrote: »

Junior Cert students do as much Science as they do Religion.
In 2020 this is beyond embarassing.

I could be corrected on this but I think a lot of the RE in secondary school is more sort of philosophy and ethics as supposed to religious instructions.
My daughter actually enjoyed junior cert RE but she would not be particularly religious.
Writing essays and formulating opinions are useful skills.

MadYaker

Unless you can make a comparison with what you’d be like without any education how can you determine whether it was useful or not?

See, my education was useful

Airyfairy12

Hawthorn Tree wrote: »

Junior Cert students do as much Science as they do Religion.
In 2020 this is beyond embarassing.

Not at all, students would often have two double and one single class of Science during the week, they would normally only have one or two single Religion classes.
Religion in secondary school is mostly philosophy, ethics and different beliefs, they learn about all kinds of religions.

Hawthorn Tree

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Not at all, students would often have two double and one single class of Science during the week, they would normally only have one or two single Religion classes.
Religion in secondary school is mostly philosophy, ethics and different beliefs, they learn about all kinds of religions.

Nope. I am looking at my daughter's timetable for 1st year right now. 3 Religion classes. 3 Science classes. Classes 40 mins each. Secondary school in Galway.

riclad

I think i had one religion class a week.
I think irish should be voluntary after the inter cert.
its a waste of time for most people, let people study computing or some other useful subject instead.
How many people use irish after the leaving cert.
teachers and people who work in tg4.
I think english is a very important subject as it teachs you how grammar works ,if you work in an office you may need to write and communicate with other people in an logical manner .

Airyfairy12

Hawthorn Tree wrote: »

Nope. I am looking at my daughter's timetable for 1st year right now. 3 Religion classes. 3 Science classes. Classes 40 mins each. Secondary school in Galway.

First year is very different to every other year in secondary school, the kids do enough of everything so they can pick subjects for their junior cert course, first year is more like an induction year, they do tasters of everything and only really go in depth into subjects in 2nd and 3rd year.

Religion in first year is a lovely class, there's very little in the curriculum about christianity and its more discussion based, they mostly do mindfulness and meditation more than anything else, most schools have a class trip in first year for religion, they take the kids off somewhere for the day to do meditation and confidence building.
Its actually really beneficial, more so than most other classes. Tbh, id see much more benefit in that than learning off names of lakes and rivers in a geography class.

Airyfairy12

riclad wrote: »

I think i had one religion class a week.
I think irish should be voluntary after the inter cert.
its a waste of time for most people, let people study computing or some other useful subject instead.
How many people use irish after the leaving cert.
teachers and people who work in tg4.
I think english is a very important subject as it teachs you how grammar works ,if you work in an office you may need to write and communicate with other people in an logical manner .

The problem is that Irish is taught wrong, they should teach it the same way ESL is taught to non English speakers.

NSAman

I went to a brothers school, the brothers still had a hand in day to day running. While we had religion classes on the timetable, our headmaster took these for us in leaving year.

It was nothing to do with religion, it was a discussion class on modern day morality/personal issue/self reflection and very progressive. The man was a genius in my mind.

We discussed topics such as homosexuality (waaayyyyyyy before it was even legal), marriage issues, suicide, racism, etc etc.

It made us as young men think about life after school. Which in the early 80s was going to be difficult. Religion for me is a waste of education time. More practice and useful thought provoking classes were much more beneficial to me, it taught us to think in ways that Irish education really doesn’t allow young people to think.