Lions Tour

zambrotta11

Has anyone tickets for the game in Murrayfield? What’s the chance of that going ahead? And if they do go ahead will there be fans?

sydthebeat

zambrotta11 wrote: »

Has anyone tickets for the game in Murrayfield? What’s the chance of that going ahead? And if they do go ahead will there be fans?

I do.
But no word yet as to crowds etc

Louis Friend

Yeah, me too. The UK should be fully open at that stage so I reckon so.

If we’re allowed to go, it’ll probably involve quarantine at home (at a minimum).

Lost Ormond

Louis Friend wrote: »

Yeah, me too. The UK should be fully open at that stage so I reckon so.

If we’re allowed to go, it’ll probably involve quarantine at home (at a minimum).

UK wont be fully open in terms of live events and crowds at them. but will likely be some people at game

Louis Friend

Lost Ormond wrote: »

UK wont be fully open in terms of live events and crowds at them. but will likely be some people at game

The UK’s Covid plan provides for full stadiums from 21 June.

The Lions are playing Japan on 26 June.

Pudsy33

George North out with an acl injury, might give Ringrose a better chance of touring.

yerrahbah

Lions centre choices are looking a bit light

sprucemoose

yerrahbah wrote: »

Lions centre choices are looking a bit light

maybe bundee could go and complete the trifecta - getting sent off in the 6N, RWC and a Lions Test

thomond2006

The odds suggest Ringrose will be the beneficiary of this injury but I'm not sure he fits. Gatland loves his big centres and I think Tuilagi will have a great chance if he can prove his fitness.

sprucemoose

thomond2006 wrote: »

The odds suggest Ringrose will be the beneficiary of this injury but I'm not sure he fits. Gatland loves his big centres and I think Tuilagi will have a great chance if he can prove his fitness.

i fear you may be right but i really hope not, one of the most overrated players of recent times unfortunately. fantastic on his day but those days come about once in a blue moon in reality

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

The odds suggest Ringrose will be the beneficiary of this injury but I'm not sure he fits. Gatland loves his big centres and I think Tuilagi will have a great chance if he can prove his fitness.

i think if tuilagi is upright he travels now

theVersatile

Tuilagi if fit, Harris otherwise (even though I don't particularly rate Harris myself)

thomond2006

Yesterday, Tuilagi is quoted as saying he's "4 or 5 weeks away".

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/56853422

Squidgy Black

thomond2006 wrote: »

The odds suggest Ringrose will be the beneficiary of this injury but I'm not sure he fits. Gatland loves his big centres and I think Tuilagi will have a great chance if he can prove his fitness.

If anything I think it probably cements Farrell's place in the squad to travel as a 12 covering 10. A lot of people had left him out of their squads due to his form but I can't see Gatland leaving him out now especially considering Johnny has been constantly crocked lately and Ford hasn't been great either. Wouldn't be surprised to see Biggar and Russell as the two 10s with Farrell at 12 as cover.

MisterAnarchy

Louis Friend wrote: »

The UK’s Covid plan provides for full stadiums from 21 June.

The Lions are playing Japan on 26 June.

No, Englands plan hopes to have full capacity by June 21st at the earliest, Scotland is late June but no definitive date has been agreed.

The capacity will be reduced as a decision on capacity will have to be taken well before June 26th.
You can't leave it to the last minute.

bilston

Imagine missing a Lions tour because you got injured playing in the Rainbow Cup. Gutting for North. He looked a strong shout for the 13 jersey.

Cosmo Kramer

North's injury could be good news for Ringrose alright - he was far from certain of travelling before now.

It sounds like it's going to be a tight squad this year so hopefully we don't see places wasted on weaker players like Chris Harris. I do think Townsend will have an impact on selections though and probably not in a good way.

In general I think Townsend is a poor addition to the coaching ticket. The success of the Lions in the last two tours has been based around operating a relatively simple game plan in attack that allows an unfamiliar group of players to form a capable co-ordinated team in a short space of time. Townsend's involvement, both through the more expansive attacking rugby his teams play and his likelihood to bat for poorer quality Scottish players has the potential to weaken the chances of a series win overall.

sydthebeat

The bookies have ringrose at 1/5 to travel... which is shorter than Slade and Tuilagi ...

the odds are the same for Davies and Henshaw is the only centre that has shorter odds

TRC10

bilston wrote: »

Imagine missing a Lions tour because you got injured playing in the Rainbow Cup. Gutting for North. He looked a strong shout for the 13 jersey.

All the talk of North at 13 surprised me. I don't think he was ever going to play 13 for the Lions, he'd have gone as a winger.

He only played 13 for Wales because of injuries. I think it was highly unlikely Gatland would select anything other than a specialist 13 for the Lions.

I think Davies, Tuilagi, Slade, Henshaw, Ringrose, Harris would all start at 13 before North.

It's such a shame though because he really looked to have found his form again after a tough few years.

mart 23

Can CJ Stander be selected for the Lions .

Louis Friend

mart 23 wrote: »

Can CJ Stander be selected for the Lions .

Yes, and he wants to be

bilston

TRC10 wrote: »

All the talk of North at 13 surprised me. I don't think he was ever going to play 13 for the Lions, he'd have gone as a winger.

He only played 13 for Wales because of injuries. I think it was highly unlikely Gatland would select anything other than a specialist 13 for the Lions.

I think Davies, Tuilagi, Slade, Henshaw, Ringrose, Harris would all start at 13 before North.

It's such a shame though because he really looked to have found his form again after a tough few years.

It doesn't really matter how he ended up at centre for Wales, he played really well. I can't think of a 13 in the four countries who was better in the 6Ns (I'm counting Henshaw as a 12).

sydthebeat

hes played center for ospreys and wales for many times during previous years.

its not as if he rocked up last feb and they threw the 13 jersey at him

TRC10

bilston wrote: »

It doesn't really matter how he ended up at centre for Wales, he played really well. I can't think of a 13 in the four countries who was better in the 6Ns (I'm counting Henshaw as a 12).

I agree he was really good. But 6 Nations form isn't the be-all-and-end-all. O'Brien, Faletau, Davies and Sexton weren't in form in the 2017 6N. Yet they were all key players for the Lions. Whereas someone like Jonathan Joseph was tearing it up in the 6N, but wasn't in the test team. I agree North played well at 13. But I don't he was ever going to play 13 for the Lions with so many natural 13s proven at the highest level. His defence at 13 would also be a huge concern.

Cosmo Kramer

sydthebeat wrote: »

The bookies have ringrose at 1/5 to travel... which is shorter than Slade and Tuilagi ...

the odds are the same for Davies and Henshaw is the only centre that has shorter odds

Well yes, after North's exit that would make sense, although I suspect Farrell's odds are also shorter?

I would have had Ringrose as probably the fifth pick at centre before today with only four going (I'm picking Farrell as a centre here with Russell going along with Biggar at 10). Now I'd have him up to fourth and on the plane.

The Inbetween is mine

Tommy Seymour for the Lion's!

THFC198

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

North's injury could be good news for Ringrose alright - he was far from certain of travelling before now.

It sounds like it's going to be a tight squad this year so hopefully we don't see places wasted on weaker players like Chris Harris. I do think Townsend will have an impact on selections though and probably not in a good way.

In general I think Townsend is a poor addition to the coaching ticket. The success of the Lions in the last two tours has been based around operating a relatively simple game plan in attack that allows an unfamiliar group of players to form a capable co-ordinated team in a short space of time. Townsend's involvement, both through the more expansive attacking rugby his teams play and his likelihood to bat for poorer quality Scottish players has the potential to weaken the chances of a series win overall.

Couldn’t disagree more, I think you’re really underestimating some of the Scottish players (and I’m not even talking about someone like Finn Russell who could lose you a game as quickly as he wins you one). Harris was a defensive lynchpin in a D that has come on massively under Steve Tandy, I think he’ll travel for much the same reason Payne travelled in 2017. Sutherland unfortunately looks like injury will have scuppered his chances but he’d really stuck his hand up, Hogg is a shoe in, Watson was player of the tournament, and someone like Ali Price is in a position where there isn’t a star and every option has their weaknesses. Haven’t spoken about VDM/Gray/Redpath at all as I personally wouldn’t bring them but not because of their lack of quality.

This tour is the first in a while where all 4 nations are really coming in at a similar level.

sprucemoose

THFC198 wrote: »

This tour is the first in a while where all 4 nations are really coming in at a similar level.

ah here relax now, scotland are better than they were but they still aren't anywhere near the other three. good win against england to be fair but they were flattered by the scorelines against wales & ireland, if the game against france had been played when it was originally scheduled they would have been battered as france would still have something to play for. they'll be challenging for the wooden spoon next year

The Inbetween is mine

Been out of the loop last few days, has there been any resolution on the English sides letting their players join up with the Lions and forgo the club season end?

Louis Friend

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Been out of the loop last few days, has there been any resolution on the English sides letting their players join up with the Lions and forgo the club season end?

Yes, resolved as I understand it

TRC10

sprucemoose wrote: »

ah here relax now, scotland are better than they were but they still aren't anywhere near the other three. good win against england to be fair but they were flattered by the scorelines against wales & ireland, if the game against france had been played when it was originally scheduled they would have been battered as france would still have something to play for. they'll be challenging for the wooden spoon next year

I think you'd have to say Watson is their most likely starter, with Hogg also nailed on to travel.

Then you have guys like Z.Fagerson, Gray, Price, Russell, Harris and Maitland who are possibles more than probables.

sprucemoose

TRC10 wrote: »

I think you'd have to say Watson is their most likely starter, with Hogg also nailed on to travel.

Then you have guys like Z.Fagerson, Gray, Price, Russell, Harris and Maitland who are possibles more than probables.

be interesting to see how hogg goes, he was very good in the 6N but his form has been up and down since and was poor against leinster. as great as he is, i do sometimes think he's a bit overhyped as he seems to be buddies with alot of the media types (tindall etc). similar with watson, i cant decide if he's the real deal or does he just stand out in a poor team, scotland have had a few players like that recently that have flattered to deceive.

others are definitely possible (i'd add VDM and Redpath to the list too) but i couldn't see them getting near the test team. having said that with GT part of the coaching team i could see them going with russell (most overrated current player imo) and price along with another couple of distinctly average scottish players just cause

Paul Smeenus

Ah, here. Watson is brilliant. Hogg is as well, but Watson has been underappreciated until now. A very broad skill-set, ferocious carrier, destructive tackler.

TRC10

sprucemoose wrote: »

others are definitely possible (i'd add VDM and Redpath to the list too) but i couldn't see them getting near the test team. having said that with GT part of the coaching team i could see them going with russell (most overrated current player imo) and price along with another couple of distinctly average scottish players just cause

Redpath I think is the real deal and was my MOTM v England. Absolutely brilliant performance on his debut. But he's only got 1 cap and with the quality of centres available I'd be surprised if he goes.

VDM had a great 6 nations, but I'd be far more comfortable with Maitland starting a test v the Sprinboks. He's experienced, been very consistent for Scotland over the years, toured in 2013, done it in Heineken Cup finals, good in the air, good defender and an intelligent player. And with the shortened squad, he can cover 15 too (I think versatility will be important in selection for this tour with a smaller squad).

Price I would actually have on the plane. Even with Murray's good recent form. 9 is probably the weakest position for us. And Price was the most consistent 9 for the home nations. He plays with a real tempo which I think is key v SA. If we play a slow and deliberate game with Murray, it will suit South Africa. And Ben Youngs is very dependent on playing behind a dominant pack.

THFC198

sprucemoose wrote: »

ah here relax now, scotland are better than they were but they still aren't anywhere near the other three. good win against england to be fair but they were flattered by the scorelines against wales & ireland, if the game against france had been played when it was originally scheduled they would have been battered as france would still have something to play for. they'll be challenging for the wooden spoon next year

Again I’d disagree, they had Wales well beaten and somehow lost the game (says more about the overall mentality of the team than anything about individuals), we outmuscled them as we always do but still it was the closest game against them in a few years, and you’re forgetting they went to Paris and deservedly won.

They’ve taken serious steps forward and the closeness of the 6N shows that. I think GT is a big improvement on Howley, and I think next week we will see near half a dozen Scots named purely on merit.

sprucemoose

have to say i very much disagree, i dont see this current team as being any different to the teams in the past that pulled out a big game against england and then were poor for the rest of the championship. a better team would still have beaten wales (as awkward as playing with 14 is, 30 mins with one man down is manageable) and ireland. england was a decent performance in fairness but england were shocking that day and even at that i think they would have won if there were a crowd at the stadium. if they move russell back to 12 and start hastings they might get somewhere but i think theyre 5th place at best for the next while

THFC198 wrote: »

and you’re forgetting they went to Paris and deservedly won.

in fairness though, that was a joke of a game. france flipped and flopped with their gameplan for the whole match, going for the four tries then suddenly changing to just wanting to win the game. as much as scotland technically won the game (and fair play for getting the try), france had the ball secured while the clock was in red - for me thats game over, its just the bizarre french indecision that let the game continue. if that game went ahead as originally scheduled i think france win very comfortably (ifs and buts i know)

sydthebeat

Scotland will be lucky to get 4 players on the plane

sprucemoose

sydthebeat wrote: »

Scotland will be lucky to get 4 players on the plane

who are you thinking?

THFC198

sprucemoose wrote: »

have to say i very much disagree, i dont see this current team as being any different to the teams in the past that pulled out a big game against england and then were poor for the rest of the championship.

I know what you mean about the team as a whole, and I’d absolutely concede that the Scottish mindset right now doesn’t seem capable of winning a 6N but I wouldn’t lay that down to the quality of players

Sutherland - would’ve travelled if not for his recent shoulder injury, has been consistently very strong in the scrum and loose, better than Healy and Vunipola recently anyway.

Gray - Could very easily beat Henderson to that final SR spot

Watson - 6N player of the tournament, nailed on to travel

Price - one of the best of a weak position for the Lions

Russell - I love and hate this man, countless examples of him controlling games at the highest level (I do concede he’s as likely to lose you the game, but he’s gotta be the as an option)

Harris - has to travel, been much better than Ringrose/Slade/Davies recently

Hogg - first name on the team sheet for various reasons

This list doesn’t even include players like Z. Fagerson, J. Ritchie, M. Fagerson, C. Redpath, VDM, who are all reasonably in with a shout.

On a separate note, curious to see what 10’s Garland brings. For me it’s got to be three of Farrell, Biggar, Russell and Sexton. Each has their own reasons for and against and I struggle to stick to my guns of which one I’d leave out

sprucemoose

THFC198 wrote: »

Russell - I love and hate this man, countless examples of him controlling games at the highest level (I do concede he’s as likely to lose you the game, but he’s gotta be the as an option)

i think SA would eat him alive, when the pressure is on he hides. i hate singling out one player for a loss but hes a big reason racing didnt beat exeter and hes done that a good few times.

THFC198 wrote: »

Harris - has to travel, been much better than Ringrose/Slade/Davies recently

ringrose was very good up until the scotland game and it looked like he was playing with an injury, i think he gets an awful lot of unjust stick too tbh, hes a phenomenal player when he has any bit of form. all three are much better than harris with any bit of form going

THFC198 wrote: »

Hogg - first name on the team sheet for various reasons

probably true but i could honestly see keenan pushing him if he gets picked, attacking game has come on massively and SA will kill the type of brain fades hogg is suspect of.

THFC198 wrote: »

On a separate note, curious to see what 10’s Garland brings. For me it’s got to be three of Farrell, Biggar, Russell and Sexton. Each has their own reasons for and against and I struggle to stick to my guns of which one I’d leave out

id say sexton, biggar and farrell mostly likely, with farrell going as a 12. could see it just being two of the three with hogg or even murray being short-term cover if needed. on form farrell shouldn't go but i expect WG will pick him, with sexton farrell and davies/henshaw being the midfield (much as i think sexton henshaw ringrose would be the best option)

TRC10

THFC198 wrote: »

Hogg - first name on the team sheet for various reasons

Liam Williams would like a word

theVersatile

I will literally eat a leather hat if Redpath tours - he's one (admittedly impressive) cap; but centre places are limited especially if Farrell is thought of as a 12.

I'd consider Harris to be a Chris Farrell level player who gets more exposure due to being in the Scotland set up - solid, reliable, defensively sound, but little x-factor that can break the game in the veign of Tuilagi, Henshaw and others.

Ali Price had a terrible 6N tournament and shouldn't even be in the discussion for nine. Very poor game management - he's everything people claim that Murray is. I'd be very surprised if the three nines weren't Youngs, Murray and Davies (unless there's an obvious candidate I'm missing out on - don't say Cooney).

Hogg and Hamish I can't deny are excellent and deserved tourists if they get selected. Russell is consistently inconsistent, but could squeek in as a third ten. Could easily choose Ford, Biggar, Sexton plus Farrell ahead of him though, assuming Johnny and Biggar's heads are in the right place.

AbusesToilets

TRC10 wrote: »

Liam Williams would like a word

Keenan was better than both this season.

TRC10

theVersatile wrote: »

Ali Price had a terrible 6N tournament and shouldn't even be in the discussion for nine. Very poor game management - he's everything people claim that Murray is. I'd be very surprised if the three nines weren't Youngs, Murray and Davies (unless there's an obvious candidate I'm missing out on - don't say Cooney).

*criticises scrum half for having poor game management

*selects Gareth Davies

TRC10

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Keenan was better than both this season.

Liam Williams on form is by a mile the best full back in the home nations.

However there will be riots on the streets in Scotland if Hogg doesn't start.

theVersatile

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Keenan was better than both this season.

Was he though? He's a reliable head under the kick ball but I think Hogg is far better. Whatever about Williams, I wouldn't be his biggest fan.

Keenan had a good few dodgy moments in attack in the ANC and 6N which got swept quietly under the rugby: dodgy passes and odd running lines. He did well in a lot of instances too, but I think some are talking him up far too much. I'd be shocked if he tours.

That and I'd fear for his ribcage against the Boks. Send up a contestable over his head and have PSDT line him up and he'll wake up two weeks later. He's awfully light.

theVersatile

TRC10 wrote: »

*criticises scrum half for having poor game management

*selects Gareth Davies

Lol touché. I'd forgotten about his little brain fart against us - must have been overshadowed in my brain by Burns kick afterwards.

TRC10

theVersatile wrote: »

Lol touché. I'd forgotten about his little brain fart against us - must have been overshadowed in my brain by Burns kick afterwards.

Could be a bench option late in a game. But he's been known to make some bad decisions even prior to that game.

Kieran Hardy was the most impressive of all the Welsh 9s IMO. Nice balance to his game, kicks well. Thought he was class v England.

AbusesToilets

theVersatile wrote: »

Was he though? He's a reliable head under the kick ball but I think Hogg is far better. Whatever about Williams, I wouldn't be his biggest fan.

Keenan had a good few dodgy moments in attack in the ANC and 6N which got swept quietly under the rugby: dodgy passes and odd running lines. He did well in a lot of instances too, but I think some are talking him up far too much. I'd be shocked if he tours.

That and I'd fear for his ribcage against the Boks. Send up a contestable over his head and have PSDT line him up and he'll wake up two weeks later. He's awfully light.

Same Hogg who got skinned repeatedly this past weekend and during the 6Ns? Keenan was very solid imo, both in terms of positioning and tackling. I think he's very strong in attack. He runs good lines and can offload very effectively.

He may not be one to rip off a break like Williams did vs NZ, but in totality, he's a better package. He's also not apt to give away stupid penalties like Williams is.

TRC10

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Same Hogg who got skinned repeatedly this past weekend and during the 6Ns? Keenan was very solid imo, both in terms of positioning and tackling. I think he's very strong in attack. He runs good lines and can offload very effectively.

He may not be one to rip off a break like Williams did vs NZ, but in totality, he's a better package. He's also not apt to give away stupid penalties like Williams is.

Ah here. Keenan has done really really well, and still has great potential. But he's not in the same league as L.Williams just yet.

He's by far the most complete full back. Unbelievable in the air, great defender, brilliant counter attacker. Not as good a tactical kicker as Hogg but it's certainly not a weakness. One of the Lions' best players in 2017 and his performance v England in 2019 is one of the all time great full back performances. I understand he might not be a particularly likeable guy, but you cant deny his class.

Him and Hogg go as the 2 full backs. Can't see more than 2 being taken in a 36 man squad when A.Watson or Maitland can cover 15.