Lions Tour

joseywhales

In fairness to Bundee, last time we beat South Africa, he injured their prop in the first 30 seconds with a leg breaker, it really set the tone for the game...although that was about 4 years ago.

lawrencesummers

Maybe instead of playing Japan they should warm up with a game against the barbarians made of of just British and Irish players that were not picked.


That could get tasty.

Lost Ormond

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Maybe instead of playing Japan they should warm up with a game against the barbarians made of of just British and Irish players that were not picked.

That could get tasty.

And would be of little benefit to success of the tour/test series when you are simply playing another side of players just thrown together.
A game against Argentina/Japan/whoever.. will benefit Lions ahead of tour far more than that

TRC10

Lost Ormond wrote: »

And would be of little benefit to success of the tour/test series when you are simply playing another side of players just thrown together.
A game against Argentina/Japan/whoever.. will benefit Lions ahead of tour far more than that

100% agree. They played the barbarians in 2013 and it was a total pisstake. Absolutely demolished them and probably learnt nothing. The game against Japan will be very beneficial.

Elliot Daly and Jared Payne both played for the Baa Baas that day too. I wonder how many other players have played for and against the Lions?

Quin_Dub

TRC10 wrote: »

100% agree. They played the barbarians in 2013 and it was a total pisstake. Absolutely demolished them and probably learnt nothing. The game against Japan will be very beneficial.

Elliot Daly and Jared Payne both played for the Baa Baas that day too. I wonder how many other players have played for and against the Lions?

Ricki Flutey was probably the main one , played against for NZ Maori and one of the regional teams back in 2005 and then after qualifying for England he played for the Lions later on

UAEguy2020

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Simmons is playing worescter and Newcastle while Conan is playing dragons and Benetton.

Quelle problem?

Conan plays test rugby, Simmonds doesn’t... there’s the difference.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

What, 6-7 months ago?



I'm not making a case for his inclusion; just saying it's not a "mockery".



And Jersey Reds and Ealing Trailfinders is standard the Saracens lads play against regularly.

Ritchie is definitely one of a few who will feel unlucky, he had an excellent 6 Nations.



Will leave it there...

No because the Saracens lads play for England, I lost a lot of respect for Gatland after this selection of I’m honest, totally sold out to the media on this occasion.

UAEguy2020

OldRio wrote: »

How did Exeter v Leinster go? Simmonds v Conan?

Also Conan played well against the potential European Champions last weekend.


Quelle problem?

In all fairness Jones doesn't pick Simmonds because Jones is a dick, simple as that. Both players deserve their place.

Tell us how Simmonds deserves his place, what quality does he posses that makes him such a must pick despite not playing test rugby?

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

15-Keenan
14-May
13-Ringrose/Slade
12-Davies/Tuilagi
11-Stockdale/Earls
10-Sexton/Ford
9-T.Williams
1-Healy/Marler
2-Kelleher/Herring
3-Sinckler
4-Gray
5-Ryan
6-Stander
7-Navidi/Underhill
8-Billy.V

I still don’t get how J.Davies is even in the conversation anymore, totally past it and being picked by people souley on reputation.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

No because the Saracens lads play for England, I lost a lot of respect for Gatland after this selection of I’m honest, totally sold out to the media on this occasion.

They played awfully for England during the 6 Nations, by any measure.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Tell us how Simmonds deserves his place, what quality does he posses that makes him such a must pick despite not playing test rugby?

Deserves his place because he was the European POTY in 2020 and best player in the prem by a country mile.

He doesn't play test rugby but that's not because he isn't good enough to.

Ask yourself this.

What enhances Gatland's reputation more?

Picking a player that the media are calling for.

Or winning a test series in South Africa.

It's the latter. So why would he do anything other than pick the best squad to win a test series? The notion that he's "selling out" is such nonsense

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I still don’t get how J.Davies is even in the conversation anymore, totally past it and being picked by people souley on reputation.

Same thing was said about Sexton in 2017

Same thing was said about Alun Wyn Jones in January

Buer

Gatland has clearly gone with a very specific approach in mind. He's looked at how SA won the RWC and is planning to combat that with a few notable caveats where he's rolling the dice on different types of player in the likes of Watson or Simmonds who are both excellent open field players and would perform well in terms of being impact players.

He has gone with the biggest, most physical selection he can find. His tightheads are all 120kg+. His smallest hooker is 110kg. Wyn Jones is the smallest loosehead at 114kg. He hasn't picked a single blindside instead opting to go with locks who can play blindside in Lawes and Beirne. Curry is going to be his openside, I'd imagine at a tidy 110kg.

His back line is going to be a meaty, powerful back line too no doubt. Guys like Henshaw, VDM, Aki and Harris are all 100kg+. Murray and Biggar (most likely starters at this time) are big guys too for their positions.

He has a plan in mind and, given his past record, he has earned the right to give it a try. I've no issue with it, really.

partyguinness

Gatland knows what he is doing and he has picked the squad he feels will do the best job.

I don't believe in crying over perceived political slights. Sure we would all love to join in a mutual **** circle with at least 12 Irish players.

schmoo2k

Take or Leave it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9RAX2z0WXQ

But to be fair, he does can see the bigger picture way better than I can...

lawrencesummers

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Tell us how Simmonds deserves his place, what quality does he posses that makes him such a must pick despite not playing test rugby?

Everyone else can see his ability, Why don’t you justify Eddie jones not picking him.

lawrencesummers

Lost Ormond wrote: »

And would be of little benefit to success of the tour/test series when you are simply playing another side of players just thrown together.
A game against Argentina/Japan/whoever.. will benefit Lions ahead of tour far more than that

I can’t quite put my finger on it, but I think there is some global reason a game against the Japan or Argentina teams might not go ahead...

pjohnson

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I can’t quite put my finger on it, but I think there is some global reason a game against the Japan or Argentina teams might not go ahead...

The weather right?

lawrencesummers

pjohnson wrote: »

The weather right?

No, it’s the lack of 5G I think.

aloooof

Not another feckin typhoon...

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

They played awfully for England during the 6 Nations, by any measure.

Simmonds was pretty non existent aswell.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Deserves his place because he was the European POTY in 2020 and best player in the prem by a country mile.

He doesn't play test rugby but that's not because he isn't good enough to.

Ask yourself this.

What enhances Gatland's reputation more?

Picking a player that the media are calling for.

Or winning a test series in South Africa.

It's the latter. So why would he do anything other than pick the best squad to win a test series? The notion that he's "selling out" is such nonsense

Again, against the likes of Worcester and Newcastle...
Like I said, tell me what quality he posses that makes him a Lion? Because if he was as good as you are making out he would be a international player.

Well both, now that he’s picked Simmonds the British media will love him so he doesn’t need to pick him in the test team now.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Same thing was said about Sexton in 2017

Same thing was said about Alun Wyn Jones in January

It really wasn’t, Sexton when he did play in the 2017 6N you could see why he was the clear standout 10 for the lions and it took a loss against NZL for Gatland to wake up and see it himself.

AWJ had one bad season, Davies has been pretty ordinary for ages now.

The fact you have to use other players as an example rather than use examples of Davies in recent times that prove I might be wrong shows you are probably in agreement with me here.

Skyfloater

schmoo2k wrote: »

Take or Leave it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9RAX2z0WXQ

But to be fair, he does can see the bigger picture way better than I can...

Credit where it is due, Squidge is a far better analyst than most.

UAEguy2020

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Everyone else can see his ability, Why don’t you justify Eddie jones not picking him.

What ability is it, What exactly does he do that makes him a must pick, you are the one who said he has ability but which ability is it? Answer the question please. Because he clearly isn’t good enough he’s just another premiership player totally overhyped by the British media because he impressed against some meh English teams.

OldRio

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Tell us how Simmonds deserves his place, what quality does he posses that makes him such a must pick despite not playing test rugby?

Why should I waste my time to tell you anything. You obviously think you know everything. Life is far to short.

bennyl10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Conan plays test rugby, Simmonds doesn’t... there’s the difference.

Conan hasnt played test rugby all that much more than Simmonds though?

Neither have been continuously selected by their coaches at that level

Quin_Dub

bennyl10 wrote: »

Conan hasnt played test rugby all that much more than Simmonds though?

Neither have been continuously selected by their coaches at that level

Not really - Conan has been selected fairly consistently barring injury.

When Fit , Conan has been getting selected.

Certainly since before the World Cup I don't think that there has been an extended period where Conan was available and playing that he wasn't making the squad.

Simmonds hasn't been anywhere near the England camp in over 3 years.

aloooof

I've had a think about it UAEguy, and on second thoughts I think you're right.

I think Warren Gatland, with...
20+ years coaching experience
3 Premiership titles
1 Heineken Cup
4 Six Nations Championships (3 of which Grand Slams)
2 RWC Semi-Finals appearances
A series win in Australia for the Lions
A series draw in NZ

... has decided now. Now is the time he must bow down to the media.

Quin_Dub

Quin_Dub wrote: »

the squad.
Simmonds hasn't been anywhere near the England camp in over 3 years.

Because Eddie Jones. He's a quality player, and this is a ridiculous discussion.

lawrencesummers

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

What ability is it, What exactly does he do that makes him a must pick, you are the one who said he has ability but which ability is it? Answer the question please. Because he clearly isn’t good enough he’s just another premiership player totally overhyped by the British media because he impressed against some meh English teams.

He has done more than enough to earn a chance at international level. He is the standout backrow player in games against lot of other international backrow players like faletau and curry. Maybe you don’t watch much premiership rugby, but he is chronically underrated by the national side.

Eddie jones did the same with Brad Barritt. He was well ahead of lot of others but Eddie didn’t like him.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Because if he was as good as you are making out he would be a international player.

He's literally a Lion

Question is...

Is it because he is actually a good player?

Or is it because Warren Gatland is selling out to the media?

I'll leave it up to you

UAEguy2020

OldRio wrote: »

Why should I waste my time to tell you anything. You obviously think you know everything. Life is far to short.

Well...you were the one who said he has brilliant ability, I would have thought if that was the case you would be able to name me one of them...if I was a cynic I would be saying that you haven’t actually watched him play and are just buying into the media hype.

UAEguy2020

bennyl10 wrote: »

Conan hasnt played test rugby all that much more than Simmonds though?

Neither have been continuously selected by their coaches at that level

Conan has largely been injured which has harmed his selection chances, he scored a try against England afew weeks ago and stood out at the highest level, where was Simmonds?

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

I've had a think about it UAEguy, and on second thoughts I think you're right.

I think Warren Gatland, with...
20+ years coaching experience
3 Premiership titles
1 Heineken Cup
4 Six Nations Championships (3 of which Grand Slams)
2 RWC Semi-Finals appearances
A series win in Australia for the Lions
A series draw in NZ

... has decided now. Now is the time he must bow down to the media.

Ah that old chest nut

UAEguy2020

Zelda Nervous Oak wrote: »

Because Eddie Jones. He's a quality player, and this is a ridiculous discussion.

Wait so people on here are saying he should be picked because Gatland knows what he’s doing and has a great record but then say he doesn’t get picked for England because of EJ who’s arguably done more at the highest level...irony much.

Nah that’s a cop out, if he was as good as he’s been hyped he would be in the England squad, yeah maybe not getting selected but a player this hyped would be atleast making the EPS squad if it was justified.

UAEguy2020

lawrencesummers wrote: »

He has done more than enough to earn a chance at international level. He is the standout backrow player in games against lot of other international backrow players like faletau and curry. Maybe you don’t watch much premiership rugby, but he is chronically underrated by the national side.

Eddie jones did the same with Brad Barritt. He was well ahead of lot of others but Eddie didn’t like him.

Obviously hasn’t done enough, there are always a heap of players hyped to the top by the media in the premiership who don’t get selected because they can’t see to understand that there is a significant gap between the two standards and sadly this is one player who’s slipped through and made the lions selection.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

He's literally a Lion

Question is...

Is it because he is actually a good player?

Or is it because Warren Gatland is selling out to the media?

I'll leave it up to you

He isn’t a Lion until he’s capped against SA which he won’t.

Both, he’s a good player but not lions standard in the slightest and him getting picked ahead of some of the back rows that impressed in the 6N is a disgrace.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Ah that old chest nut

Did you change your opinion on Ross Byrne delivering the exact same as Sexton vs England following the 6 Nations win, btw? Just out of interest.

Deusexmachina

TRC10 wrote: »

He's literally a Lion

Question is...

Is it because he is actually a good player?

Or is it because Warren Gatland is selling out to the media?

I'll leave it up to you

Em, he’s not ‘literally a lion’. If he was, he would give away a huge amount of penalties what with all the roaring and biting..

thomond2006

Someone needs to learn how to multi-quote.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

He isn’t a Lion until he’s capped against SA which he won’t.

Both, he’s a good player but not lions standard in the slightest and him getting picked ahead of some of the back rows that impressed in the 6N is a disgrace.

Why would Gatland select anything other than what he feels is the best squad to beat South Africa?

If impressing the media is really what he wants (it's not, but I'll grant you that for arguments sake), surely winning the series is the best way to go about that.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

He isn’t a Lion until he’s capped against SA which he won’t.

Both, he’s a good player but not lions standard in the slightest and him getting picked ahead of some of the back rows that impressed in the 6N is a disgrace.

If you go on a Lions tour you're a Lion. Ok he hasn't travelled just yet but you're just getting into semantics. He'll be a Lion in a few weeks (barring injury).

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

Did you change your opinion on Ross Byrne delivering the exact same as Sexton vs England following the 6 Nations win, btw? Just out of interest.

Nope

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Why would Gatland select anything other than what he feels is the best squad to beat South Africa?

If impressing the media is really what he wants (it's not, but I'll grant you that for arguments sake), surely winning the series is the best way to go about that.

If he was the best why doesn’t Eddie who has a better track record pick him? He’s a token pick to keep the media happy and that’s his only role on this tour outside of the dirt trackers side

Keeping the media inside in the lead up to the series is what it’s for. The media do this all the time with different players and unfortunately they eventually got their wish, took them long enough.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

If you go on a Lions tour you're a Lion. Ok he hasn't travelled just yet but you're just getting into semantics. He'll be a Lion in a few weeks (barring injury).

Really so does that make O’Toole and Irish international? It doesn’t, what makes you a lion is getting into the test side.

He won’t be because he won’t play against SA, he has already served his purpose and now will be nothing more than an extra body for the dirt trackers side.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

If he was the best why doesn’t Eddie who has a better track record pick him? He’s a token pick to keep the media happy and that’s his only role on this tour outside of the dirt trackers side

Keeping the media inside in the lead up to the series is what it’s for. The media do this all the time with different players and unfortunately they eventually got their wish, took them long enough.

Eddie isn't infallible. He has gotten many things wrong in the past.

But there's many possible reasons. Maybe Eddie values different attributes in his number 8s. Simmonds is a very different player to the likes of a Billy.V or Nathan Hughes.

There are also many reasons why Simmonds' attributes would be valuable against South Africa. What do him, Faletau and Conan all have in common? Their quick and play in the wide channels. Send a Vunipola or Stander up the middle all day against South Africa and see what happens.

You seem to be taking all of Eddie Jones' decisions as gospel. Yet when Gatland makes a decision that's different, you immediately conclude it's wrong because Eddie thinks different. Why is that?

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Really so does that make O’Toole and Irish international? It doesn’t, what makes you a lion is getting into the test side.

He won’t be because he won’t play against SA, he has already served his purpose and now will be nothing more than an extra body for the dirt trackers side.

Eh no. But that's a false equivalency. He has been in Ireland's squads. We just don't have a name for people who've been in Ireland's squads.

People who go on Lions tours are, and always have been called "Lions".

Rory Best was a Lion in 2013 and 2017

If you play in a test match,that's an added honour and you're a test Lion.

But everyone who plays a game (not a test match) for the Lions is given a number and they're a Lion

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Eddie isn't infallible. He has gotten many things wrong in the past.

But there's many possible reasons. Maybe Eddie values different attributes in his number 8s. Simmonds is a very different player to the likes of a Billy.V or Nathan Hughes.

There are also many reasons why Simmonds' attributes would be valuable against South Africa. What do him, Faletau and Conan all have in common? Their quick and play in the wide channels. Send a Vunipola or Stander up the middle all day against South Africa and see what happens.

You seem to be taking all of Eddie Jones' decisions as gospel. Yet when Gatland makes a decision that's different, you immediately conclude it's wrong because Eddie thinks different. Why is that?

And neither is Gatland,

If Simmonds was a lions level BR he would be making England squads full stop, Ben Earl isn’t very big infact is 13kg lighter but he posses qualities that are important at test level, Simmonds posses qualities good for premiership level but no good at test level against top defenses.

What do they don’t have in common? Conan and Faletau do it at test level and against top defenses, Simmonds does it against Newcastle and Worcester and supposedly that means he’s good enough to do it v SA...


Wait so people on here are taking Garlands decisions as gospel but dismissing EJ? It seems to be narrative setting. If Simmonds was as good as he was made out he would be making England squads, bottom line, bloody Mark Wilson and the likes of Ludlum have been getting picked ahead of him...and people think if he can’t knock those players out of a squad that he’s lions level...give me a break.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Eh no. But that's a false equivalency. He has been in Ireland's squads. We just don't have a name for people who've been in Ireland's squads.

People who go on Lions tours are, and always have been called "Lions".

Rory Best was a Lion in 2013 and 2017

If you play in a test match,that's an added honour and you're a test Lion.

But everyone who plays a game (not a test match) for the Lions is given a number and they're a Lion

No he wasn’t because he didn’t play, he made the tour and that’s it.

If you make the lions you are a lions tourist and if you get in the 23 v SA you are a Lion.