Lions Tour

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

And neither is Gatland,

If Simmonds was a lions level BR he would be making England squads full stop, Ben Earl isn’t very big infact is 13kg lighter but he posses qualities that are important at test level, Simmonds posses qualities good for premiership level but no good at test level against top defenses.

What do they don’t have in common? Conan and Faletau do it at test level and against top defenses, Simmonds does it against Newcastle and Worcester and supposedly that means he’s good enough to do it v SA...


Wait so people on here are taking Garlands decisions as gospel but dismissing EJ? It seems to be narrative setting. If Simmonds was as good as he was made out he would be making England squads, bottom line, bloody Mark Wilson and the likes of Ludlum have been getting picked ahead of him...and people think if he can’t knock those players out of a squad that he’s lions level...give me a break.

He's also done it at the very highest level at the club game. Hence why he won European POTY. He also does it against Saracens, Wasps, Bristol, Quins etc. You're just naming the two poorest teams in the prem thinking it strengthens you're argument, but it just makes you look ignorant and foolish.

Every dog on street can see that Simmonds is an international level player, who isn't picked by Eddie Jones at this moment in time. But it's just one coach. Eddie Jones isn't some all-knowing, all powerful rugby diety. He's just the England coach at this moment in time.

Jones and Gatland are 2 of the greatest coaches of all time. One of them wants Simmonds in his team, the other doesn't. Get over it.

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

No he wasn’t because he didn’t play, he made the tour and that’s it.

If you make the lions you are a lions tourist and if you get in the 23 v SA you are a Lion.

He did play. Rory Best is Lion #793.

That's just a fact.

Arguing with that is the equivalent of arguing that the Earth isn't round

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

He's also done it at the very highest level at the club game. Hence why he won European POTY. He also does it against Saracens, Wasps, Bristol, Quins etc. You're just naming the two poorest teams in the prem thinking it strengthens you're argument, but it just makes you look ignorant and foolish.

Every dog on street can see that Simmonds is an international level player, who isn't picked by Eddie Jones at this moment in time. But it's just one coach. Eddie Jones isn't some all-knowing, all powerful rugby diety. He's just the England coach at this moment in time.

Jones and Gatland are 2 of the greatest coaches of all time. One of them wants Simmonds in his team, the other doesn't. Get over it.



He did play. Rory Best is Lion #793.

That's just a fact.

Arguing with that is the equivalent of arguing that the Earth isn't round

Ahhhhhhh Right so when we slam a pro14 player it’s playing against Zebre and Dragons but when talking about a premiership player it turns into Saracens etc... narrative setting at its finest.

He won POTY last year, not this year. And again if he was as good as he is made out why wasn’t he capped for 3 years?

How can he be an international level player if he doesn’t play international rugby? Like I said impressing against bog standard premiership teams doesn’t make you a test player, plenty of players look impressive at club level and fail to make the step up to test level, if he was as impressive as being made out Jones would have picked him more often and if he didn’t fit the mould as an 8 he would have converted him to a 7 or something like that like he did with Earl. The reason he did so with Earl is because Earl is a test standard back row and Simmonds isn’t, period.

And btw if he’s a so impressive can you tell me one thing he does at an elite level that makes him good enough to bypass the queue of back rows actually playing test rugby and play for the Lions, just one thing as the people above on this forum who say he’s an obvious pick don’t seem to know much about him.

One wants him for the wrong reasons and other doesn’t want him for the right reasons. The big difference is Jones doesn’t give a **** what the media wants and has the balls to back his convictions.

Which country did Best play against? If he didn’t play in a test he isn’t a lions player.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Which country did Best play against? If he didn’t play in a test he isn’t a lions player.

If you're definition of a Lion is different to the official definition, at least have the conviction to say it.

You can't change a definition of a word and then use that definition to suit your narrative. Because then you can say pretty much anything
Rory Best is Lion #793 and will be until the end of time

You may not like that. Or he may no fit your definition of a Lion. That's your problem.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Ahhhhhhh Right so when we slam a pro14 player it’s playing against Zebre and Dragons but when talking about a premiership player it turns into Saracens etc... narrative setting at its finest.

Ok the issue with this , is I could say this

"Tadhg Beirne?? He's only doing it against Italy in the 6 Nations, he shouln't be in the squad"

Yes Italy are in the 6 Nations. Doesn't mean the 6 Nations is bad.

Same thing when you say Simmonds has only been doing it against Worcester and Newcastle in the premiership. You can pick the worst teams in any comp and use it as a stick to beat a player with.

The pro14 is bad, that's why nobody would get picked on pro14 performances alone. But Simmonds has been doing it in the prem which a much higher standard, and also the highest level of club rugby. And even won European POTY. Which has also been won by players such as Owen Farrell, Maro Itoje and Sean Obrien

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

How can he be an international level player if he doesn’t play international rugby?

I'm going to let you in on a little secret.

Not all international level players are currently playing international rugby

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

If you're definition of a Lion is different to the official definition, at least have the conviction to say it.

You can't change a definition of a word and then use that definition to suit your narrative. Because then you can say pretty much anything
Rory Best is Lion #793 and will be until the end of time

You may not like that. Or he may no fit your definition of a Lion. That's your problem.

I only count tests as it help prevent mockeries like Sam Simmonds being a lion, if you don’t play in a test you aren’t a lion, end of.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Ok the issue with this , is I could say this

"Tadhg Beirne?? He's only doing it against Italy in the 6 Nations, he shouln't be in the squad"

Yes Italy are in the 6 Nations. Doesn't mean the 6 Nations is bad.

Same thing when you say Simmonds has only been doing it against Worcester and Newcastle in the premiership. You can pick the worst teams in any comp and use it as a stick to beat a player with.

The pro14 is bad, that's why nobody would get picked on pro14 performances alone. But Simmonds has been doing it in the prem which a much higher standard, and also the highest level of club rugby. And even won European POTY. Which has also been won by players such as Owen Farrell, Maro Itoje and Sean Obrien

Doing it against Italy is better than doing it against most of the premiership sides Simmonds would play against.

And the premiership minus the hype isn’t much better hence why none do anything in Europe on a consistent basis which is why Simmonds isn’t picked for England despite being supposedly the best premiership back row player. And again you are basing one award to justify picking a player for the Lions.

Btw I’m still waiting to hear what’s Simmonds spike and what he adds that makes him a must pick.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

I'm going to let you in on a little secret.

Not all international level players are currently playing international rugby

Yes they are, that’s why they play international rugby weather they are on the field or in a squad. Hell sometimes players who aren’t international standard make squads so it’s pretty difficult to be left out of an international squad if you are international standard.

Dave_The_Sheep

Jesus, lads.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I only count tests as it help prevent mockeries like Sam Simmonds being a lion, if you don’t play in a test you aren’t a lion, end of.

I can't say anything to this other than you're just wrong. Rory Best is Lion #793.
Sorry

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Doing it against Italy is better than doing it against most of the premiership sides Simmonds would play against.

And the premiership minus the hype isn’t much better hence why none do anything in Europe on a consistent basis which is why Simmonds isn’t picked for England despite being supposedly the best premiership back row player. And again you are basing one award to justify picking a player for the Lions.

Btw I’m still waiting to hear what’s Simmonds spike and what he adds that makes him a must pick.

Gatland want's fast, ball playing numer 8s in the wide channels because one dimensional players like Vunipola and Stander will get eaten up by SA and Faletau, Conan, Simmonds are by far the best at that.

Eddie Jones wants bruisers like Vunipola and Hughes, which Simmonds isn't. It really is as simple as that. But somehow I can't see you acknowledging that, given that all you seem to want to do is stick your fingers in your ears and shout "la la la not picked by the almighty Eddie Jones la la la la Worcester and Newcastle la la la"

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Yes they are, that’s why they play international rugby weather they are on the field or in a squad. Hell sometimes players who aren’t international standard make squads so it’s pretty difficult to be left out of an international squad if you are international standard.

Again, just not true. Sorry.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

I can't say anything to this other than you're just wrong. Rory Best is Lion #793.
Sorry



Gatland want's fast, ball playing numer 8s in the wide channels because one dimensional players like Vunipola and Stander will get eaten up by SA and Faletau, Conan, Simmonds are by far the best at that.

Eddie Jones wants bruisers like Vunipola and Hughes, which Simmonds isn't. It really is as simple as that. But somehow I can't see you acknowledging that, given that all you seem to want to do is stick your fingers in your ears and shout "la la la not picked by the almighty Eddie Jones la la la la Worcester and Newcastle la la la"



Again, just not true. Sorry.

Nope I’m not wrong.


Lol Leinster ate up Simmonds, just imagine what SA will do to him...well nothing because he won’t play but you get what I mean.

If EJ didn’t like what he brings as a 8 he would do what he did with Wilson and Earl and convert him to a 7, he didn’t because he must know something we don’t about Simmonds, bare in mind EJ sees him at training when he was in England camp, Gatland hasn’t, it’s pretty telling how he hasn’t been reselected, maybe he knows something Gatland doesn’t.

And for the third time I’ll ask the question, what trait does Simmonds bring then that makes him a clear lions choice and allows him to skip the queue? Because scoring some maul tries against bog standard premiership teams doesn’t make you test standard.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

I can't say anything to this other than you're just wrong. Rory Best is Lion #793.
Sorry



Gatland want's fast, ball playing numer 8s in the wide channels because one dimensional players like Vunipola and Stander will get eaten up by SA and Faletau, Conan, Simmonds are by far the best at that.

Eddie Jones wants bruisers like Vunipola and Hughes, which Simmonds isn't. It really is as simple as that. But somehow I can't see you acknowledging that, given that all you seem to want to do is stick your fingers in your ears and shout "la la la not picked by the almighty Eddie Jones la la la la Worcester and Newcastle la la la"



Again, just not true. Sorry.

And yes it is true, Wilson and Ludlum are pretty middle of the road players, if he could get selected ahead of them that’s pretty damning.

pickarooney

Holy crap, could some of you STFU?

lawrencesummers

Leak in the English press today that Sam Simmonds is to be named co-captain with AWJ.

OldRio

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Well...you were the one who said he has brilliant ability, I would have thought if that was the case you would be able to name me one of them...if I was a cynic I would be saying that you haven’t actually watched him play and are just buying into the media hype.

Please show me where I said 'he has brilliant ability' Quote my post. You are wrong.

Also check my posts on the Premiership Rugby thread. There are a number, because I watch it.
Then apologise to me.

Clegg

There's definitely a place for Simmonds in the squad. He has athleticism like no other backrow available. I don't know if he'll make the test side as he struggles a bit when Exeter don't have front foot ball. But if there is any hint of parity up front he'll do well.

Conan may be the big winner here. He's shown he can do well when his pack is on the back foot and he has some experience playing at blindside. Could be the bench sub for th test side.

Could well be the case that Furlong and Porter are in the test team. Has that ever happened in a front row position before for the Lions where the starting and replacement are not only from the same country but the same club?

penybont exile

Gatland has a pretty decent record as a selector. His tenure in Wales saw some contentious decisions on that front.....
....... but overall he came out on the right side of the ledger.

As a manager perhaps the biggest decisions you make are who you hire and who you fire. I would not have picked Simmonds but what do I know?

I remember Gatland picking 13 Ospreys for his first match @ Twickenham in 2008. Most people in Wales thought he was bonkers yet they won and four games later delivered the GS.

Theyve picked the players to suit the plan. Some excellent players have missed out but that's always the case in the history of team sports..... Selection is just one persons opinion. The beauty of the Lions is it enables players not playing international rugby to have a shot..... Plenty of successful examples of that in the past......

Louis Friend

Gatland gets nowhere near the amount of credit he deserves.

Deusexmachina

Louis Friend wrote: »

Gatland gets nowhere near the amount of credit he deserves.

I think most knowledgeable rugby supporters know just how good he is. That's why he keeps getting offered the jobs.
He was transformative with Ireland, incredibly successful with Wales and has a great track record with the Lions.
He is the best coach of Northern Hemisphere teams for the last 20 years.

Louis Friend

Yep…“WarrenBall” is just lazy analysis.

The man is one of the greatest coaches of all time with a CV to die for.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

If EJ didn’t like what he brings as a 8 he would do what he did with Wilson and Earl and convert him to a 7, he didn’t because he must know something we don’t about Simmonds, bare in mind EJ sees him at training when he was in England camp, Gatland hasn’t, it’s pretty telling how he hasn’t been reselected, maybe he knows something Gatland doesn’t.

Ehh what? Earl and Wilson were always flankers. He never converted them.

And there you go again. "Eddie Jones didn't pick him so he must be no good". Your love affair with Eddie Jones surely has a fascinating back story behind it.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

And for the third time I’ll ask the question, what trait does Simmonds bring then that makes him a clear lions choice and allows him to skip the queue? Because scoring some maul tries against bog standard premiership teams doesn’t make you test standard.

I've told you twice. He plays in the wide channels, he's a great footballer and he's probably the fastest number 8 in the world.

And I just know you're going to respond with "Ooh if he was that good, Lord Eddie would pick him"

Eddie Jones once said to Simmonds, the way he plays doesn't suit England's game. It's nothing to do with ability.

thomond2006

sydthebeat

Excellent explanation of the selection of Aki, Conan and Simmonds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9RAX2z0WXQ

AbusesToilets

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Excellent explanation of the selection of Aki, Conan and Simmonds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9RAX2z0WXQ

I'd agree with most of that. Hill getting selected still makes no sense. Granted Ryan has arguably been off form, but if he gets fingered for struggling against La Rochelle, why has Hill, and the other Exeter players, gotten a pass after getting pasted by leinster?

Clegg

Dan Biggar failed a HIA in Northampton's game. There'll be a lot of crossed fingers over the next few weeks re player fitness.

Buer

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'd agree with most of that. Hill getting selected still makes no sense. Granted Ryan has arguably been off form, but if he gets fingered for struggling against La Rochelle, why has Hill, and the other Exeter players, gotten a pass after getting pasted by leinster?

He didn't though. You can still be good in a beaten pack. Hill was someone that really stood out against Leinster. He was the best second row on the field that day by a distance.

sydthebeat

Buer wrote: »

He didn't though. You can still be good in a beaten pack. Hill was someone that really stood out against Leinster. He was the best second row on the field that day by a distance.

He wasn't even the best Exeter second row on show that day. He gave away at least 2 stupid pens and he was lucky not to be carded.
It's all fine and well being "physical" but if it's uncontrolled it's damaging for your team

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

He wasn't even the best Exeter second row on show that day. He gave away at least 2 stupid pens and he was lucky not to be carded.
It's all fine and well being "physical" but if it's uncontrolled it's damaging for your team

He completely outshone Gray who was taken off early. Gray's most significant contribution was running a really poor line out.

Hill may have given away a couple of penalties (I only recall the one) but that doesn't change his breakdown work and carrying. He was far more effective and aggressive than any other lock in those areas.

UAEguy2020

OldRio wrote: »

Please show me where I said 'he has brilliant ability' Quote my post. You are wrong.

Also check my posts on the Premiership Rugby thread. There are a number, because I watch it.
Then apologise to me.

So what are they?

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

Ehh what? Earl and Wilson were always flankers. He never converted them.

And there you go again. "Eddie Jones didn't pick him so he must be no good". Your love affair with Eddie Jones surely has a fascinating back story behind it.

Earl was an 8... he was converted to a 7 in 2019 because they saw potential in him.

If he was as good as made out he would atleast make the England squad, maybe not start but definitely would make it.

UAEguy2020

TRC10 wrote: »

I've told you twice. He plays in the wide channels, he's a great footballer and he's probably the fastest number 8 in the world.

And I just know you're going to respond with "Ooh if he was that good, Lord Eddie would pick him"

Eddie Jones once said to Simmonds, the way he plays doesn't suit England's game. It's nothing to do with ability.

He’s the fast 8 in the premiership...

Oh yeah he’s the only back row that plays in the wide channels, let’s pick him.

Doesn’t suit him at 8, if he was as good as made out there would find a place for him in the squad.

TRC10

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

So what are they?

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Earl was an 8... he was converted to a 7 in 2019 because they saw potential in him.

If he was as good as made out he would atleast make the England squad, maybe not start but definitely would make it.

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

He’s the fast 8 in the premiership...

Oh yeah he’s the only back row that plays in the wide channels, let’s pick him.

Doesn’t suit him at 8, if he was as good as made out there would find a place for him in the squad.

Ok you're right.

Gatland bows to the media and Lion #793 isn't a Lion

joseywhales

Louis Friend wrote: »

Yep…“WarrenBall” is just lazy analysis.

The man is one of the greatest coaches of all time with a CV to die for.

Who would of known that you need powerful strike runners and solid defenders to win a rugby match?! Shocking! It's not like he invented it, he's an excellent pragmatic coach.

AbusesToilets

Buer wrote: »

He didn't though. You can still be good in a beaten pack. Hill was someone that really stood out against Leinster. He was the best second row on the field that day by a distance.

Not sure I would agree with that assessment, but take your point.

ongarite

Sinckler put in MOTM performance today and gave a very honest and emotional interview post game on missing out on Lion's tour.

https://twitter.com/btsportrugby/status/1391086471466061826

Buer

Two tries for Sam Simmonds today. What a player.

Three cheers for Sammy the Lion.

theVersatile

ongarite wrote: »

Sinckler put in MOTM performance today and gave a very honest and emotional interview post game on missing out on Lion's tour.

https://twitter.com/btsportrugby/status/1391086471466061826

Beat me to it. I think my respect for Sinkler just tripled after watching that.

Tommybojangles

Nice to see that all of the "Lions means nothing anymore" horsesiiit is limited to 'journalists' and keyboard warriors and doesnt ring true for the players

razorblunt

Clegg wrote: »

Dan Biggar failed a HIA in Northampton's game. There'll be a lot of crossed fingers over the next few weeks re player fitness.

Biggar will get absolutely hammered in any game he plays out there. He’s had serious head knocks and it’s a bit of a joke it’s not talked about more yet it’s thrown as a reason for skipping Sexton.

lawrencesummers

Buer wrote: »

Two tries for Sam Simmonds today. What a player.

Three cheers for Sammy the Lion.

Technically hes not a lion.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

Two tries for Sam Simmonds today. What a player.

Three cheers for Sammy the Lion.

Very good. Very good.

sydthebeat

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Technically hes not a lion.

Got to think about that, think about that deeply

Buer

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Technically hes not a lion.

He has the heart of a lion and that's all that matters.

aloooof

Some of the recent posts here have had a bit of genius, bit of magic.

Louis Friend

Fair play to Sinckler.

PTH2009

Let's hope any of the players picked done get injured before the tour

Sadly it can happen

lawrencesummers

Buer wrote: »

He has the heart of a lion and that's all that matters.

No, he has a regular human heart.