Lions Tour

ronanc1000

Would make cracking viewing if Japan couldn't fufill the warm up game and a Barbarians side made up of the best unselected XV took to the field.

Lost Ormond

ronanc1000 wrote: »

Would make cracking viewing if Japan couldn't fufill the warm up game and a Barbarians side made up of the best unselected XV took to the field.

But not much use in prep for the tour/series playing another just put together side especially one that would just be a one off.

lawrencesummers

Lost Ormond wrote: »

But not much use in prep for the tour/series playing another just put together side especially one that would just be a one off.[/

It’s perfect prep when you consider that the SA side will be just put together.

The SA team are effectively coming out of a semi retirement for the lions tour, they haven’t played a game of rugby since the World Cup final, and it’s going to have a massive influence on them.

Look how far back England have gone since that final and they have been playing matches.

swiwi_

Eamonn Sweeney throwing a wee tantrum in the indo.

Bazzo

swiwi_ wrote: »

Eamonn Sweeney throwing a wee tantrum in the indo.

What about? I try to avoid giving the bindo clicks wherever possible.

Louis Friend

Does anyone think travel to the game will be permitted by June 26th?

swiwi_

Bazzo wrote: »

What about? I try to avoid giving the bindo clicks wherever possible.

“ Gatland’s indulgent Lions selection isn’t just an insult to Irish rugby, it’s an insult to the intelligence”

I don’t think some people understand. The Lions isn’t an all-star team with the 37 best players ranked 1 to 37. It’s the team selected to fit gatland’s tactics and game plan. There’s a lot but not complete overlap in personnel.

Louis Friend

Gatland is one of the best coaches in the world. And that Springboks side is a particular type of animal, one that took a superb England side to the cleaners in the World Cup final. The Lions have an inconsequential buildup and then at least two Tests at altitude. Only an idiot wouldn’t realise that a very specific type of strategy is needed to pull off a win down there this summer. And it probably isn’t “let’s pick the 15 best players and give it a go”.

sydthebeat

Eamonn sweeney, as with Keith duggan, are GAA journos who occasionally dip their toe into rugby and expose themselves as having 'the square root of fcuk all' knowledge about the sport.

Sweeneys op Ed pieces are generally best ignored

OldRio

Napolean Bonaparte supposedly said of one of his Generals 'I know he's a good General but is he lucky?'

IMHO Gatland to a tee.

thomond2006

Gatland has been far too successful to put him into the lucky category.

Louis Friend

OldRio wrote: »

Napolean Bonaparte supposedly said of one of his Generals 'I know he's a good General but is he lucky?'

IMHO Gatland to a tee.

That does him a massive disservice.

bilston

OldRio wrote: »

Napolean Bonaparte supposedly said of one of his Generals 'I know he's a good General but is he lucky?'

IMHO Gatland to a tee.

He has done pretty well as a coach (in the NH anyway), he dragged Ireland out of the 90s, won 3 Premierships and a Heineken Cup with Wasps, has won a Lions series in Australia drawn one in NZ and won however many GS's and 6Ns titles with Wales and reached two world cup semi finals, that's a lot of lottery wins Rio!!!

Wayne Pivac on the other hand...there's your lucky general!

Edit - he was lucky in NZ in 2017 though...no doubt about that

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

Gatland has been far too successful to put him into the lucky category.

He has, but while he has had a lot of success he has also had a lot of poor results too.

Wales under him were either winning the 6Ns or coming 4th or 5th effectively. And they did a lot more of the latter. They couldn't buy a win against SH opposition for years.

Even with the Lions in Australia against what was at that stage one of the worst Aussie sides I'd seen, the series was on an absolute knife edge until the final test where Australia's lack of depth told and the Lions were finally able to cut loose a bit (Australia lost 3 guys to injury in the first half and had a yellow card). The first 2 Tests were 1 score games with the Lions winning the first and Australia winning the second. In the first Beale missed 2 kicks in the last 10 to win it for Australia, slipping for one of those.

The Lions went well in NZ and Wales had a few very successful 6Ns campaigns. But it wasn't all roses for Gatland and he could very easily have lost the series in Australia in 2013 in the first 2 Tests. He's a very good coach, but I think it's also fair to say that he has his limitations too.

EDIT: Actually as bilston pointed out he could very easily have lost the series in NZ 4 years ago too with that controversial refereeing decision at the end.

thomond2006

All well and good, but calling him lucky is crazy.

His success with Wales was pretty incredible considering the underfunded/losing environment that the regional game was for most of his time there.

You also fail to mention his progression at RWCs.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

All well and good, but calling him lucky is crazy.

His success with Wales was pretty incredible considering the underfunded/losing environment that the regional game was for most of his time there.

You also fail to mention his progression at RWCs.

I wouldn't call him lucky. Every coach benefits from good luck and suffers from bad luck at times. He is a good coach. But while I wouldn't call him lucky or knock him, I wouldn't be fawning over him either.

His progress at RWCs is that they have won 2 games that we haven't. One against us where our coach bottled the selection call and once against a French side that had yet to find their way. That's not intended to entirely denigrate the achievement, but it is required in terms of putting that achievement into context.

ShatterProof

Louis Friend wrote: »

Does anyone think travel to the game will be permitted by June 26th?

You could probably take the boat to get around it but saying that I did cancel my tickets as you’re still not guaranteed to be allowed into the game depending on number allowed to attend.

Louis Friend

4 Six Nations titles, including 3 Grand Slams.

3 Lions Tours as Head Coach, with a win in Australia, a draw in New Zealand, and a ‘?’ in South Africa.

2 World Cup Semi-Finals.

3 Premiership titles.

1 Heineken European Cup.

1 European Challenge Cup.

“Lucky”

Augme

If WG is lucky or not as good as people make out, then what does that say about every other rugby coach? Who's better than him? For me he is one of the best ever coaches in the modern game.

OldRio

Good grief it was a couple of sentences. Read all of them.
Of course he is good. I never said he wasn't. I did say he was also lucky. I stand by both.

Richie_Rich89

Gatland could have even better results if he'd had more luck. Imagine getting to a World Cup semi and having a player red carded.

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

He has, but while he has had a lot of success he has also had a lot of poor results too.

Wales under him were either winning the 6Ns or coming 4th or 5th effectively. And they did a lot more of the latter. They couldn't buy a win against SH opposition for years.

Even with the Lions in Australia against what was at that stage one of the worst Aussie sides I'd seen, the series was on an absolute knife edge until the final test where Australia's lack of depth told and the Lions were finally able to cut loose a bit (Australia lost 3 guys to injury in the first half and had a yellow card). The first 2 Tests were 1 score games with the Lions winning the first and Australia winning the second. In the first Beale missed 2 kicks in the last 10 to win it for Australia, slipping for one of those.

The Lions went well in NZ and Wales had a few very successful 6Ns campaigns. But it wasn't all roses for Gatland and he could very easily have lost the series in Australia in 2013 in the first 2 Tests. He's a very good coach, but I think it's also fair to say that he has his limitations too.

EDIT: Actually as bilston pointed out he could very easily have lost the series in NZ 4 years ago too with that controversial refereeing decision at the end.

Gatland's record at World Cups is the most impressive. He was incredibly unlucky not to have gotten Wales into 2 World Cup finals (2011 and 2019). And remember him effectively knocking England out of their own World Cup while missing half his team.

Compare that to Joe Schmidt's record at World Cups, and we all worship Joe on this side of the pond. Gatland is probably the greatest coach ever and is criminally under-appreciated. If there's one thing that cannot be said about Gatland, it's that he's "lucky".

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

Gatland's record at World Cups is the most impressive. He was incredibly unlucky not to have gotten Wales into 2 World Cup finals (2011 and 2019). And remember him effectively knocking England out of their own World Cup while missing half his team.

Compare that to Joe Schmidt's record at World Cups, and we all worship Joe on this side of the pond. Gatland is probably the greatest coach ever and is criminally under-appreciated. If there's one thing that cannot be said about Gatland, it's that he's "lucky".

As has already been said, that's not what OldRio was saying. And I was clear in saying I don't think that either. Why do people insist on arguing against something that was never being said!?

thomond2006

Molloy, why do you hate Gatland so much.

I thought Buer's hatred towards John Hayes couldn't be matched. I was wrong.

AbusesToilets

i think Gatlands greatest ability as a coach is his ability to motivate a team. There was a self belief about Welsh teams that I would have killed for Ireland to have. Any time they had to go to Paris for a GS, or to Twickenham, I fully believed they would do it. In comparison, Irish teams have repeatedly failed to raise themselves for the biggest games.

For all the luck he's undoubtedly had at times, you also have to remember all the tests Wales lost at the death. How many times against Australia, or SA? It was practically a meme.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/TelegraphRugby/status/1391415940189937665?s=19

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

I thought Buer's hatred towards John Hayes couldn't be matched. I was wrong.

Mike Brown trying to emulate John Hayes today, I see.

Wasn't quite as effective though.

TRC10

molloyjh wrote: »

As has already been said, that's not what OldRio was saying. And I was clear in saying I don't think that either. Why do people insist on arguing against something that was never being said!?

He said Gatland was "lucky".

Yeah he probably has had some luck over the years....but so has every coach ever.

He's no luckier than any other coach.

Sheep Shagger

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/TelegraphRugby/status/1391415940189937665?s=19

Apart from that game Sky have announced they are exclusive broadcaster? Alex Payne coming out of retirement for it he said lol

Dubinusa

So... is Sam Simmons a Lion?

Shaka Hislop

Dubinusa wrote: »

So... is Sam Simmons a Lion?

No absolutely not.


Sam Simmonds though... different matter

I'm sorry... couldn't resist

lawrencesummers

Dubinusa wrote: »

So... is Sam Simmons a Lion?

I think he should take over coaching the backs, while also captaining the side on their tour.

do they get their number the moment they take the pitch for their first game?

Jesus Stuart Hogg can't rip teams apart and Simmonds is no good because the premiership and European cup apparently only consist of Newcastle and worcester nice to know who the crazies are early

TRC10

Dubinusa wrote: »

So... is Sam Simmons a Lion?

Stop it. Stop it right now

lawrencesummers

Dubinusa wrote: »

So... is Sam Simmons a Lion?

No.

He’s a chief

theVersatile

Is Tomas O Leary a Lion?

Captain_Crash

Malcolm Vast Remote wrote: »

do they get their number the moment they take the pitch for their first game?

Yeah, and if two players are making their fist appearance in the same game their Lion number is given in order of shirt number on the day!

So it’s let’s say we have #809 and #810 on the same day, and one debut was a hooker and the other a full back, then the hooker is Lion #809

Shaka Hislop

theVersatile wrote: »

Is Tomas O Leary a Lion?

Unfortunately, no

OneLungDavy

I'm sick of hearing about Sam Simmonds already. Can't wait to hear the English media creaming themselves when he scores a try on tour.

Boscoirl

What about Neil Francis?

Shaka Hislop

Boscoirl wrote: »

What about Neil Francis?

We're sick of him too

lawrencesummers

Boscoirl wrote: »

What about Neil Francis?

Instead of Alan wyn jones?

joseywhales

In general though you'd have to think the saffas have a huge psychological advantage. Their country is suffering, they are at home, they haven't played in ages and obviously they aren't a completely newly constructed team as usual.

The lions have to go there, under intense covid restrictions, no fans with them(maybe family?) After a long season. It will be incredibly tough.

Blut2

That assumes the Lions actually go down to SA. At this stage I think the predictions/odds are the games are going to be played in the UK.

Louis Friend

Blut2 wrote: »

That assumes the Lions actually go down to SA. At this stage I think the predictions/odds are the games are going to be played in the UK.

That ship has sailed. They committed to the tour ages ago.

lawrencesummers

joseywhales wrote: »

In general though you'd have to think the saffas have a huge psychological advantage. Their country is suffering, they are at home, they haven't played in ages and obviously they aren't a completely newly constructed team as usual.

The lions have to go there, under intense covid restrictions, no fans with them(maybe family?) After a long season. It will be incredibly tough.

Naw. SA are going to get hosed.


You can’t not play international rugby that long and expect to be competitive at that level.

dor843088

Just goes to show how much some view certain leinster players through rose tinted glasses. Gatland was asked about Ryan on off the ball a while ago and barely knew who he was. If Ringrose was at Connaught and Aki was at Leinster Ringrose would be a nobody and Aki would be a legend. Same goes for Carty and Ross Byrne.

Squidgy Black

dor843088 wrote: »

Just goes to show how much some view certain leinster players through rose tinted glasses. Gatland was asked about Ryan on off the ball a while ago and barely knew who he was. If Ringrose was at Connaught and Aki was at Leinster Ringrose would be a nobody and Aki would be a legend. Same goes for Carty and Ross Byrne.

So you're saying that Gatland doesn't know who one of the starting locks for Ireland for the past couple years, who started in two Champions Cup finals as well as winning MOTM in the 2018 final, Irish Player of the year in 2019.

Riiiiiiight.

Louis Friend

dor843088 wrote: »

Just goes to show how much some view certain leinster players through rose tinted glasses. Gatland was asked about Ryan on off the ball a while ago and barely knew who he was.

That just didn’t happen.