Lions Tour

Clegg

Considering the way the Lions played, a fully fit Ringrose wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. The centres were there to crash all day long.

Henshaw is the form 13 in the Northern Hemisphere this year. He was utterly wasted him by the Lions. They didn't give him an attacking platform to make breaks or distribute. The linebreaks he made were through individual skill alone.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721425#Comment_117721425

They scored on the one Curry was pinged for too. Needless action on his part.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721463#Comment_117721463

Curry giving away a mental penalty as the maul barrelled towards the line was significantly worse for me. He just needed to do nothing. Just don't do something stupid.

LW tried to do something and made a bad call. Curry actively prevented a try by idiocy.

All_in_Flynn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721713#Comment_117721713

Em, ok. Not sure what you mean by armchair ref to be honest. I made a point that I feel refereeing has become wildly inconsistent and your counter argument is that it's the same at every level and they have always been inconsistent. Great.

I'm not sure what's embarrassing about saying players like Ali Price wouldn't play for Leinster. He wouldn't and in fact I'd go as far to say he wouldn't play for any of the Provinces. Dan Bigger wouldn't start either. Neither would Kew Owens.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721420#Comment_117721420

Who do you play instead of Biggar, in fairness?

Farrell was completely out of form and Russell is Russell. He was fine today but he had his fair share of questionable moments. He's entertaining to watch but over a three-test series there isn't a chance he leads them to an overall win.

Biggar was easily the best option.

Buddy Bubs

What an abomination of a tour. The pick of 4 international teams playing provinces shorn of their best 7 to 10 or so players then a test series dominated by coaches mouthing and games that were beat part of twice as long as they should have been listening to referees going through decisions with fine tooth comb.

How the hell they will market Australia 2025 with the lack of depth in that country is beyond me. I think the lions has run its course and doesn't fit in to professional game any more. Although I think a lot of the international structure is on life support.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721822#Comment_117721822

Wildly inconsistent from what and who?

Its the same at every level because thats how you ref. You cant totally fundamentally change how the sport is officiated without comprehensively changing what the sport is and what the sport is about...

Ken Owens would be ahead of Kelleher for me and by a bit right now at least. Maybe some time in the future Kelleher might just might get be thought of as better but thats a bit off yet. You are putting Leinster on a pedastal a bit above their station....

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721738#Comment_117721738

I mean, I'm sure you could make an argument that certain Irish players wouldn't start for Sarries or Racing. Ali Price is an international scrum half and JGP and McGrath are not (to any serious degree). Given Leinster's paucity of really top quality 10s after Sexton I'm not sure where you would think Russell wouldn't be accommodated. He 100% would - he's infuriating but he's better than either Byrne at the moment. These players are playing to a much higher level than the Leinster players you are comparing them to.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721850#Comment_117721850

A pick of 4 international teams has been playing provinces without their best players on the tours for some time now. Not much going to change about that... The coaches mouthing and whining will ideally be challenged by world rugby and we will not see it happen in future but it should have been dealt with during the tour.

Lions makes too much money and does fit in with professional rugby in that regard unless those who propose to remove it find ways to replace its income. If you do think the international structure is on life support what would you do to help improve it then?

Fiery mutant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721440#Comment_117721440

Saying it like that makes it appear like Murray was landing on both feet in a stable position. It was nowhere near that. He fell with his body in a horizontal position. The fact his foot or hand hit the ground before his face did nothing to break his fall, and should never have been taken as a mitigating circumstance. In 2005 when BOD was tipped, his hand hit the ground first. Still could have broken his neck. The fact these players haven't ended up with a life threatening injury is only thorough luck, nothing more. Sooner or later, a top player is gonna end up seriously injured, and world rugby will be to blame.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721769#Comment_117721769

Henshaw isn't the form 13 in Europe, he played 2 games there all season. People seem to be overlooking that.

All_in_Flynn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721890#Comment_117721890

That's absolute nonsense to be honest. It's not beyond the realms of possibility to have refs officiate games more consistently and have refs vastly differentiate in their interpretations. I definitely feel I'm not the only one who thinks the standard of refereeing has been in decline.

I think Kelleher is better than Owens in just about every aspect I can think of bar being inconsistent at times with his darts which admittedly is a significant part of the game. I was using Leinster as a reference point. I'm not trying to put them on any pedestal. You're getting away from my salient point that there were players on the tour who are not as good as players left behind.

eclipsechaser

It's funny to read how many people want to scrap the Lions now that they have lost the series.

All_in_Flynn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721900#Comment_117721900

I don't care that Ali Price is a scrum half for Scotland. It says more about Scotland. JGP and McGrath are both better than him for my money. Anyway, even if you disagree, surely you would agree that he should not be starting two tests for the Lions? Again, the point I've been making is that Russell was in the squad ahead of a player who is superior to him. Like a number of other players who were.

StevenToast

The whole concept of the lions is dead...it had its place back in the amateur era when they had a better chance of beating NZ and SA by picking the best players from the 4 countries and touring for months and months....

The 4 Individual countries are better off staying separate instead of this forced "pinnacle of career" sky sports nonsense.

kheb

I think the Lions will continue for monetary reasons and also a certain romantic/historic viewpoint. I still enjoy the Lions but it’s not the ultimate rugby pinnacle that Sky portray it to be.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721961#Comment_117721961

Its not nonsesne at all. You are just saying ref more consistently but what does that even mean. you have to have allowances during games and approach things slightly differently with your core principles staying the same

Kelleher isnt that good and if it really was that clear cut he would have toured and considering the forwards coach is Leinster and the head coach was a hooker who played for New Zealand im sure they would know a lot about better option...

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722023#Comment_117722023

Do you mean "isn't that good" as in "Isn't as good as Owens"

or "isn't that good" as in "I don't rate him as a player"

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722080#Comment_117722080

I dont think he is better in every aspect of game compared to Owens. He is a good player with a few areas of game he needs good bit of improvement if we are to see him progress to a higher standard that some seem to think he's at already

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721983#Comment_117721983

Neither JGP or McGrath have ever looked all that impressive on the international stage. They get an absolutely carriage ride behind the Leinster pack most of the time - both of them have shown that they have a habit of falling apart with a struggling pack. I would not have started Price ahead of Murray at all and he showed that today, but neither JGP or McGrath deserve to even be in the same conversation til they actually play to any reasonable degree internationally. It is a wildly different world from playing for Leinster.

Not sure who you think Russell was there ahead of? Particularly considering he was actually very, very good today off the bench. I'm not a huge fan in general but Sexton was never an option with his missed gametime. What flyhalf should have gone instead of him?

crybaby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721795#Comment_117721795

They were literally walking over the line for that try, I still can not believe Curry did that.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721983#Comment_117721983

It's kinda hard to take you seriously when you refer to JGP as a good scrum half, he is meh at best. Just because someone plays for leinster does not automatically make them good.

As others have mentioned, easy to look good getting an armchair ride 99% of the time.

All_in_Flynn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722318#Comment_117722318

Can't seem to multi quote on the new platform but a couple of you are getting hung up on my Leinster comment. I was merely using them as a reference point. Ali Price for me is no better than either Leinster Scrumhalves. I'd have Cooney ahead of him too fwiw.

I really hate the Sexton game time excuse. He is the best fly half in the 4 nations and he was watching at home. It was actually crying out for someone like him with the way the games developed. Russell is an inferior player. I'd also argue that he was only ok off the bench yesterday. Kicked his goals well and a couple of flat passes. He gets a pass.

Regardless, what about players like Harris, Aki, Hill and Beard who were all on the tour ahead of better players? I'd also argue AWJ and a couple more had no right to be there either but he's a good captain. For me though he's looked like he has been struggling at the highest level for a while now. He has very little impact.

Well no matter who South Africa are playing the other team will be favoured from my point of view (not that I found their rugby or their unbelievably cyclopean fans in the least bit appealing ever heretofore) after the off-field grubbiness lengths that they demonstrated they will go to, that really marred the series (along with the vomit rugby which the Lions were part of yes of course).

Will certainly I suppose add some spice also to the "United Rugby Championship" (new Pro 14 successor name) also (which was obviously needed at it was not offering much of interest for a lot of the games).

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722760#Comment_117722760

I would totally disagree about the Leinster scrumhalves. They both benefit hugely from playing behind such a dominant pack all the time with Leinster and they dont get that at other levels.

AWJ most certainly had a right to be there. Better players as determined by who exactly?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721992#Comment_117721992

the pinnacle of world rugby is the World Cup but the lions is second best. This particular tour wasn’t great but there have been great rugby moments in the tours in the past and will be in the future.

GiftofGab

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1424319319496921088?s=20

So many issues for World Rugby to address after this series.

They need to bring in a sense of urgency for referees. Cut down on the time it takes for TMO decisions and give advantage to attacking team if inconclusive.

Quicken up scrum times and resets. Same with lineouts.

Not sure what the solution is for injured players but I don't want to see everyone standing around drinking water, getting ready for a scrum while one player gets attention from the medic. Need to find a way for play to continue.

60 second penalty/conversion time.

If there was a bigger focus on time in play plus fitness rather than size/strength, we would see less injuries during the collision.

Such a contrast of the putrid rugby in this Lions' Series compared to the rugby in the Australia - France tests and the Australia - New Zealand game this weekend.

One type of rugby was watchable and entertaining the other was not. Euphemisms such as "great arm-wrestle" don't cut it after being subjected to those 3 games, particularly the first 2.

Something has to be done to discourage this type of gameplay outcome anyways as people will turn away from it otherwise.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723614#Comment_117723614

The time in the laws given to kicks is just 60 seconds for penalties already. how would you quicken up scrum times without changing the safety aspect of things?

How would you find a way for play to continue if theres an injury?

tmc1963

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117721983#Comment_117721983

Utter nonsense - Price is better than JGP (and the 6N stats are clear in that respect) and McCrath.

Russell is clearly the best 10 in Europe as anyone who watches the top14 would know. Did you hear ROG talking about him?

There seems to be a sad desperation among some to denigrate the Scottish players to the Nth degree instead of welcoming the fact that they are now producing lots of players putting their hand up for selection for the Lions rather than the 3-4 of recent years. It also makes for a much better 6N.

Podge_irl

Sexton would have been the perfect 10 for the gameplan we were aiming for, and I think he is still the best 10 in Europe. But he is simply far too prone to missing games at this stage of his career to be bringing him on a multi-game tour. I thought he had a decent chance of touring post 6N, but once he left the Chiefs game and never came back to play for the rest of the season it was game over.

I'm just not seeing this surfeit of great players left behind.

Deusexmachina

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723473#Comment_117723473

I am not so sure. It's mostly hype. I would prefer to watch the Six Nations or the Heineken Cup.

The Lions is based on a very dated concept of lads heading away to the old Empire for 3 or 4 months for a jolly, a load of pints, a few punch ups and some rugby.

They get away with it when the quality of rugby is great. Not this time.

GiftofGab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723645#Comment_117723645

I thought it was 90 seconds? Anyways, we could have a stadium countdown timer for 60 seconds from the time referee blows whistle and points to posts. Any longer then its free kick to opposite team.

Timer could also be used for scrums. Any team taking too long results in free kick opposite team.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724468#Comment_117724468

90 seconds for try and no a countdown timer isnt needed for this. refs occasionally will tell players hurry up but if players are taking piss they should pull them up

There can be loads of reasons why a scrum is taking long enough to be completed. A timer isnt going to help that or fix any issues with the scrum.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724320#Comment_117724320

well rugby itself is as related to the empire as the lions tour

to he honest the fact that the Lions tests come from the amateur era is something I like about it.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723694#Comment_117723694

I dont rate Russell at all. He has a great skillet but he's also prone to moments of pure madness. It's just the kind of player he is. You can't count on him at all. I remember watching him in last years 6Ns (I think) where Scotland were a score down and it was late in the second half. He tried a hail Mary and ended up flinging a ball into touch. It was bad enough that he did that, but he actually laughed about it as though it wasn't a big deal. He actively damaged his teams chance of winning the game and wasn't at all bothered by it. I wouldn't want him playing for Leinster or Ireland personally. What good is the ability to create something special when you (a) can't guarantee he'll do it and (b) are always running the risk of him doing something stupid?

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724468#Comment_117724468

The problem with almost any change to the scrum is how teams react. So if there is a free kick for taking too long at the scrum then opposition teams will try and cause delays themselves to get the free kick. It's such a hard area to legislate for tbh. If it's viewed as a way to restart the game, but is also meant to be competitive, then it's tough to find the right balance between the two.

There are things that need to happen. Maybe stopping the clock more often to remove some of the benefits of time wasting, e.g. running down the clock for cards or late in games. But then that will likely just lead to games taking longer to complete overall.

I think teams should be penalised for their committee meetings before line outs. The crap at the ruck with a train of players enabling box kicks needs to be outlawed too. But that needs to happen alongside very strict monitoring of the offside line.

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724520#Comment_117724520

The Scottish Ian Madigan so to speak 😂😂

OneLungDavy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117722394#Comment_117722394

It really was that unbelievable. I thought Curry was poor overall in the tests. I don't know how his place was hardly questioned, H.Watson was another who was hard done by.

phily2002

Looking from a(green tinted) Irish point of view of which of our players could have travelled and maybe improved the team:

1 Healy or Kilcoyne, think Healy might have been useful just for his ability in the scrum(which was what was most needed).

The big contact games would have suited Killer as well, his tight carrying would have been well suited for it.

2 Kelliher selected but not used, probably the biggest defender out of the hookers but lineout throwing can be hit and miss, tour probably came a season to soon for him

3 Porter was a big blow, Sinclair struggled again against the boks.

Rows: Feel for Hendo, second tour without a test, should have got some match time.

Ryan - Not his best year and was troubled with injuries, on his day though he's world class.

6 Beirne(I know he played but feel he didn't get a proper shot). He looked class, can't understand the lack of minutes he got.

7 VDF - was in a lot better form than Curry(so was Watson) should have got a call up for Tips

Connors - His type of games, chop down the big runners, injured at the wrong time.

8 Dorris - unlucky with injury, could have done the Lawes role at 6 as well

Coombes - huge season, could have been a bolter instead of Simmonds(similar season for both). Unlucky timing for him with Conan coming back in such good form, could have seen 6 nations minutes otherwise.

9 Cooney - thought 9 was a weakness position for the Lions, Cooney tipped by a few as a bolter, maybe could have created a bit of magic.

McGrath/JGP - McGrath had a very good season, unlucky to be left out of the Irish squad and JGP went well in his first season of international rugby. Both would have offered a threat around the fringes.

Blade- Another with a big season, could also have offered an attacking threat.

Casey - could have been a bolter, offers quick service and a fast pass. Has an eye for a break as well. Like others above probably came a season or 2 too early for him.

10 Sexton - Big game player and was in better form than Farrell, injuries ruined his chances, hindsight I'd say Gats might regret not taking a risk on him.

Carbery - On form can create some magic, not quite enough time for him since injuries to get back to where he was.

Centers:

Ringrose - would have been wasted with the game plan, Still surprised him or Slade didn't go, would have been better than Daly

Wings:

Earls - was in flying form, very consistent which the back 3 lacked.

Conway - quiet season for him but when on form his aerial game would have come in very handy.

Stockdale - Can create something out of nothing, Big strong carrier, injuries and getting switched positions caused for a difficult year though.

15

Keenan - Hindsight probably just what the Lions needed, solid under the high ball and brilliant defender. In Williams position he gives that pass every day of the week

Zebo - Possible bolter, slipped to a bench position at the end of the season and didn't quite hit his CC final level, has the ability to create something out of nothing though.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724468#Comment_117724468

I’m not sure a timer on scrums would be a good idea. The timing of resets is an issue but it’s largely to make it as safe as possible due to the risks involved.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117724622#Comment_117724622

To be fair to Mads, he was never a great 10 despite a really good skill set, but he rarely did anything crazy either. I think never really seeing him as a second playmaker from 12 (and thus taking a lot of the decision making off his shoulders) was the big failing there.

I'd say Russell would have a lot more in common with someone like Carty tbh. Can be great, but unable to deliver to his ability consistently. Although I don't think Carty is as prone to acts of pure madness...

swiwi_

How I will remember this tour.

Richie_Rich89

Madigan played 12 all the time during MOC's tenure.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117725593#Comment_117725593

I've blocked most of that period out of my memory tbh.

Richie_Rich89

It's really interesting seeing the difference a quality attacking outhalf can make to the attack. The Lions looked a lot more dangerous with Russell in there. Biggar had a fine 6N in attack, but I think a lot of that was down to Wales's good attacking systems. He doesn't quite have the same flair as Russell. Russell is just such an instinctive player. The way he times and delays his passes to bring people on to the ball and get them running at space is... it's compelling to watch. Not all outhalves have that understanding of how to unlock a defence.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117725382#Comment_117725382

Kelleher and Keenan are probably the too who most warranted a shot, given their seasons. Murray was picked on form, maybe the 3rd best SH in the country, being generous. Henderson desperately imo. For whatever reason, Gatland has consistently rated Lawes ahead of him, and AWJ was never going to be dropped.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117725636#Comment_117725636

Not all outhalves have the tendency to be a complete and utter maniac who brainfarts in more games than not.

For all of Russell's ability, his decision making is absolutely shocking at the best of times. When he gets one wrong, and it costs the team, he tries far too hard to make up for it and instead just makes everything worse.

You just can't trust him. It's that simple.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117726141#Comment_117726141

Biggar getting injured after 10 minutes was the best thing to happen to the Lions on Saturday.

Russell came on and the Lions had multiple try opportunities before half time due to him releasing the backs and creating some tempo and fluency.

Biggar was going nowhere behind the gain line, like in the previous two tests.

It's not his fault that Curry and Williams butchered them.

They should have had a substantial lead, enough to see out the win.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117725382#Comment_117725382

I think you're being incredibly generous to a vast number of players there.

As bad as the tests were, I never really found myself thinking "if only we had Player X available". Gatland made a couple of bad calls in the XVs (Chris Harris a test Lion, come on) but I think he got the overall squad right.