Definitive answer please

Max H

Ok, so i own 2 shotguns, a semi auto and an U/O.
I'm a member of a GPA/NARGC.

I have been shooting crows/pigeons ( Under derogation rules) on lands we have permission to shoot on, plus a couple of local farmers asked me to shoot the crows/pigeons again as they were damaging crops.

I have searched this forum, read the derogation and there seems to be some confusion.

Can i shoot ( Under the derogation ) pigeons/crow/rooks/magpies with a rifle plus moderator (PCP Air or .17 rimfire ). Yes or no.

Thanks in advance

Cass

Yes.

Derogation is a relaxation or exemption from the standard laws. The derogation for this year was revoked, then quickly implemented again after serious backlash.

It states control of birds with a shotgun or rifle, cage, traps, etc. is permitted. You can find the link to the appropriate derogations on the NPWS website.

Richard308

Does the firearms act not prohibit the shooting of birds with a rifle?

Cass

Richard308 wrote: »

Does the firearms act not prohibit the shooting of birds with a rifle?

As above

Cass wrote: »

Derogation is a relaxation or exemption from the standard laws.

Richard308

Cass wrote: »

As above

Derogation to wildlife act yes. But not firearms act. Can’t see where it says rifle in the derogation. Not doubting just been a long day. Can you highlight it?

Cass

Firearms act covers firearms, licensing, storage, transport, restricted/unrestricted, etc, etc, etc. and has nothing to do with the Wildlife act which governs what you can and cannot do with specific firearms (as well as all other hunting/game issues). Now before i start getting posts about "well technically.........." i've summarized the functions of both acts to a huge extent as i'm not inform for a really long elaborate post.

In short the firearm acts have no bearing on game hunting which the wildlife act covers. Nowhere in any of the firearm acts does it cover game, seasons, etc. Much like the Wildlife acts do not go into the "administrative" side of firearm licensing/ownership.


As for pointing it out just follow the link in my first post. It brings you to the PDF of the various game and what can be used to control them.

Richard308

It is illegal under the Wildlife Acts 1976-2012 (i.e. the primary legislation) to shoot any bird with a rifle. Since 2010, the use of poison (except for rodents) is illegal in Ireland

Richard308

Cass wrote: »

Firearms act covers firearms, licensing, storage, transport, restricted/unrestricted, etc, etc, etc. and has nothing to do with the Wildlife act which governs what you can and cannot do with specific firearms (as well as all other hunting/game issues). Now before i start getting posts about "well technically.........." i've summarized the functions of both acts to a huge extent as i'm not inform for a really long elaborate post.

In short the firearm acts have no bearing on game hunting which the wildlife act covers. Nowhere in any of the firearm acts does it cover game, seasons, etc. Much like the Wildlife acts do not go into the "administrative" side of firearm licensing/ownership.


As for pointing it out just follow the link in my first post. It brings you to the PDF of the various game and what can be used to control them.

It is illegal under the Wildlife Acts 1976-2012 (i.e. the primary legislation) to shoot any bird with a rifle. Since 2010, the use of poison (except for rodents) is illegal in Ireland

From Nargc website. And wildlife act

Cass

I don't know how else to say this.

DEROGATION - an exemption from or relaxation of a rule or law.

Its in the links and instead of going back and forth saying the wildlife act says it's illegal, read the link. Its done each year. This year it runs from May 2020 to April 2021.

The pigeon man

Richard308 wrote: »

It is illegal under the Wildlife Acts 1976-2012 (i.e. the primary legislation) to shoot any bird with a rifle. Since 2010, the use of poison (except for rodents) is illegal in Ireland

Yes under the wildlife act it is illegal to shoot wild birds with a rifle. The birds derogation is an exemption to this law. The derogation clearly states the species concerned, the times of the year, the reason for control and methods of control.

https://www.npws.ie/legislation/irish-law/eu-birds-directive-derogations

Once you act within these boundaries you're on the right side of the law. For every bird except the herring gull it states that a rifle or shotgun is a suitable method of control.

I see what you're getting at. If you were to shoot a pheasant with a rifle that would be an offence, but if you fulfil the criteria of the derogation you can use a rifle as a method of control for every bird listed except the herring gull.

Cass

For your viewing pleasure.

cookimonster

I can understand people seeking certain clarification etc but as with other posts lads are looking too deep into this. Nowhere does it mention the use of moderators for or against and if you read the NPWS web page (https://www.npws.ie/legislation/irish-law/eu-birds-directive-derogations) and the actual opening passage of the State Wide Derogation they refer to both EU and National legislative pieces. So in a nut shell it's not some makey up back office pamphlet.

Another example of what could be thought as contradictory practice would be the use of Sec42 license.
For example deer -
Wildlife Act allows for a season - which is subdivided among gender or age.
Wildlife Act makes it illegal to hunt deer at certain times of the day.
Wildlife act makes it illegal to 'lamp' protected mammals.

Under particular terms laid out in individual section 42 license the holder may cull deer out side of the season and at night with the use of a 'lamp'. The very name of the licence as it is commonly referred to 'SEC42' gets it's legality from Section 42 of the Wildlife Act, 1976 (as amended) and is infact properly known as 'Licence to Stop Damage to Flora and Fauna by Wild Animals'.
The Derogation is accepted as a yearly general licence of which the individuals can control wild birds as per the terms of the derogation.

meathstevie

Richard308 wrote: »

It is illegal under the Wildlife Acts 1976-2012 (i.e. the primary legislation) to shoot any bird with a rifle. Since 2010, the use of poison (except for rodents) is illegal in Ireland

From Nargc website. And wildlife act

You go and explain that to just about every pest control company that gets air rifles licenced for indoor use for the purpose of shooting feral pigeons and other pest birds.

Richard308

meathstevie wrote: »

You go and explain that to just about every pest control company that gets air rifles licenced for indoor use for the purpose of shooting feral pigeons and other pest birds.

I agree, but I’ve a 223 licenced for vermin control can I shoot grey crows out of the sky. I wouldn’t but it’s a bit of a **** show. Common sense isn’t so common

Cass

What has shooting birds out of the sky with a 223 got to do with derogation?

Birdnuts

Richard308 wrote: »

I agree, but I’ve a 223 licenced for vermin control can I shoot grey crows out of the sky. I wouldn’t but it’s a bit of a **** show. Common sense isn’t so common

I've had these chats with NPWS rangers from home(Kildare) and down on my place in the West(North Mayo) - all have assured me that the Derogations as outlined by Cass above are the final word on the matter.

Cass

Max H wrote: »

Can i shoot ( Under the derogation ) pigeons/crow/rooks/magpies with a rifle plus moderator (PCP Air or .17 rimfire ). Yes or no.

Cass wrote: »

Yes.

16 posts later.

Birdnuts wrote:

I've had these chats with NPWS rangers from home(Kildare) and down on my place in the West(North Mayo) - all have assured me that the Derogations as outlined by Cass above are the final word on the matter.

Reminds me of an episode from Scrubs.



Ya gotta love it.

cookimonster

Richard308 wrote: »

I agree, but I’ve a 223 licenced for vermin control can I shoot grey crows out of the sky. I wouldn’t but it’s a bit of a **** show. Common sense isn’t so common

Ahhh be careful, on the whole most people are law abiding and sensible and believe it or not the authorities know this....
.... but every now and again they, the authorities, have a brain fart and decide to supersede influence and advice and enforce control.
But thankfully at the moment our cars don't have speed regulators, we don't have a maximum alcohol purchase limit, sweets and chocolates are not banned etc etc.
It my be said that 'Common sense is not common' but in reality common sense is the norm.

Hunter456

Birds listed on the derogation can be controlled with a rifle, as said the derogation is just a relaxed part of law to control pest bird in high numbers with the most effective ways. Shooting with a rifle should be done in a safe manner
with backs stops and all that.