Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny 'poisoned'

Gatling

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

What is it with russian leaders and the obsession with taking out their opposition figures? Such fragile men.

Tens of millions of russians have been killed by their various leaders over the last 100 years ,I believe the figures are higher than there losses during ww2 .

It's crazy Europe and the west moved on and evolved economic developments , russia exported weapons and gas to Europe but if you don't agree with their policies cut off are used against Eastern Europe states who had no choice to allow the various gas and oil pipelines through their states .
And the old claims regularly made on here NATO had completely surrounded russia on all sides preparing an invasion ,
Facts show no new NATO bases built past the then east Germany , while russia has opened multiple new bases on all its borders with Europe .

WoollyRedHat

Gatling wrote: »

Tens of millions of russians have been killed by their various leaders over the last 100 years ,I believe the figures are higher than there losses during ww2 .

It's crazy Europe and the west moved on and evolved economic developments , russia exported weapons and gas to Europe but if you don't agree with their policies cut off are used against Eastern Europe states who had no choice to allow the various gas and oil pipelines through their states .
And the old claims regularly made on here NATO had completely surrounded russia on all sides preparing an invasion ,
Facts show no new NATO bases built past the then east Germany , while russia has opened multiple new bases on all its borders with Europe .

It really is shocking, appeasement has been a failed policy for too long, the countries of the 21st Century who would like to claim to be on the side of justice are not learning from their past. Plus we have so-claimed western democracies openly funding countries that are harbouring practices that are of descendant from the stone ages.

riffmongous

Gatling wrote: »

Tens of millions of russians have been killed by their various leaders over the last 100 years ,I believe the figures are higher than there losses during ww2 .

It's crazy Europe and the west moved on and evolved economic developments , russia exported weapons and gas to Europe but if you don't agree with their policies cut off are used against Eastern Europe states who had no choice to allow the various gas and oil pipelines through their states .
And the old claims regularly made on here NATO had completely surrounded russia on all sides preparing an invasion ,
Facts show no new NATO bases built past the then east Germany , while russia has opened multiple new bases on all its borders with Europe .

They need external enemies to distract people from their low life quality, simple as that. Even a lot of Russians are aware of it (the Metro series of books for example)

Muahahaha

Gatling wrote: »

We've been calling him Czar Vlad for a reason .

He says I'm not rich .he's mega effing rich

Theres an American hedge fund owner called Bill Browder who worked in Moscow for many years running his company Hermitage Capital. Putin used Hermitage Capital to launder some of his fortune by buying property in the West. Him and Putin fell out in 2005 and Vlad stole a fair wedge of Browders fortune before he fled from Russia. Browder then hired Russian lawyer Sergei Magnitsky to try to get it back. For attempting this Magnitsky was locked up, tortured and killed in one of Putins prisons in 2009. Under Obama the US then passed the Magnitsky Act which targets Russian money laundering by freezing assets and cracks down on human rights abuses through the use of sanctions. The Magnitsky Act has also been adopted by the EU. Its the main reason why Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich can no longer watch his team play in London, after the Salisbury poisoning of Sergei Skripal the UK cracked down on Abramovich as one of Putins money laundering facilitators.

In 2017 Bill Browder gave evidence to a US Senate Intelligence Committee that he estimates Putin is worth some $200bn. Which would make him unofficially the worlds wealthiest man, thats right, richer than Musk or Bezos. $200bn sounds like an unbelievable sum of money but it is not incomprehensible Putin is taxing the same oligarchs that he allows free reign. The oligarchs themselves are all multi billionaires but they have to pay Putin his slice of the pie.

Browder has also said Putin has over 10,000 people working for him running his financial affairs. Its unlikely it is just the oligarchs he is extorting, his scheme seems to pervade all of Russian society from the bottom up. If you make a bit of money in Russia sooner or later there will be a knock on the door to pay up. The whole thing is a pyrmiad scheme with Putin at the very top. This is all set against Putins official Presidential salary which is $120k per annum.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/31/financier-bill-browder-says-vladimir-putin-is-worth-200-billion.html

Mad_maxx

Muahahaha wrote: »

Theres an American hedge fund owner called Bill Browder who worked in Moscow for many years running his company Hermitage Capital. Putin used Hermitage Capital to launder some of his fortune by buying property in the West. Him and Putin fell out in 2005 and Vlad stole a fair wedge of Browders fortune before he fled from Russia. Browder then hired Russian lawyer Sergei Magnitsky to try to get it back. For attempting this Magnitsky was locked up, tortured and killed in one of Putins prisons in 2009. Under Obama the US then passed the Magnitsky Act which targets Russian money laundering by freezing assets and cracks down on human rights abuses through the use of sanctions. The Magnitsky Act has also been adopted by the EU. Its the main reason why Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich can no longer watch his team play in London, after the Salisbury poisoning of Sergei Skripal the UK cracked down on Abramovich as one of Putins money laundering facilitators.

In 2017 Bill Browder gave evidence to a US Senate Intelligence Committee that he estimates Putin is worth some $200bn. Which would make him unofficially the worlds wealthiest man, thats right, richer than Musk or Bezos. $200bn sounds like an unbelievable sum of money but it is not incomprehensible Putin is taxing the same oligarchs that he allows free reign. The oligarchs themselves are all multi billionaires but they have to pay Putin his slice of the pie.

Browder has also said Putin has over 10,000 people working for him running his financial affairs. Its unlikely it is just the oligarchs he is extorting, his scheme seems to pervade all of Russian society from the bottom up. If you make a bit of money in Russia sooner or later there will be a knock on the door to pay up. The whole thing is a pyrmiad scheme with Putin at the very top. This is all set against Putins official Presidential salary which is $120k per annum.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/31/financier-bill-browder-says-vladimir-putin-is-worth-200-billion.html

they said the same about Sadam Husein

claiming he was worth as much as the worlds richests CEO,s etc

Russia has always been a very different place compared to Western Europe but in truth its no more brutal politically than the likes of China which curiously gets a pass , especially from our own government

many places much more medieval than Russia , Saudi Arabia springs to mind , again the americans give them a pass

Elmer Blooker

The western media may hype up Navalny as Russia's 'leading opposition' figure but the leading opposition are in fact the Communist Party.
So what are Navalny's chances of forming an anti Putin alliance with the Communists? Not much.
https://www.rt.com/russia/512984-zyuganov-navalny-financial-interests/
' ... a young but sober Yeltsin' :pac:

ElektroToad

Mad_maxx wrote: »

they said the same about Sadam Husein

claiming he was worth as much as the worlds richests CEO,s etc

Russia has always been a very different place compared to Western Europe but in truth its no more brutal politically than the likes of China which curiously gets a pass , especially from our own government

many places much more medieval than Russia , Saudi Arabia springs to mind , again the americans give them a pass

True enough, but the US gives those regimes a pass because they are compliant and agreeable with US global interests

Putin is nothing of the sort and is focused promoting Russia's own interests, rather than pandering to the West. But that doesn't deny the fact that he, his family, and his inner circle from his time as a KGB operative in East Germeny etc have all enriched themselves at the expenses of the people via mega government run companies involved in gas, oil, metals, diamonds etc.

I'm no expert but I reckon Putin is in a real bind. I personally believed that he would've tried to retire after 21 years at the helm but I think the problem is that he can't retire! His popularity within Russia is finally weakening as people's living standards have been declining over the past 5-6 years. He has failed to find a loyal, popular potential successor to grant him protection / immunity when he and his family try to sail into the sunset...

All the above is why I reckon Navalny is now being seen as a more serious threat than before

Muahahaha

ElektroToad wrote: »

I'm no expert but I reckon Putin is in a real bind. I personally believed that he would've tried to retire after 21 years at the helm but I think the problem is that he can't retire! His popularity within Russia is finally weakening as people's living standards have been declining over the past 5-6 years.

Id say there is something in that alrght. I have a mate who is over there 4 or 5 times a year for work and he tells me you can see things getting visibly worse in the last few years. In Moscow its pretty normal to see old age pensioners shuffling around in the snow in old rags of clothes and ruffling through rubbish skips to try to find food or empty glass bottles they can sell.

I was there in 1991 just a few months before communism collapsed. While there was a lot of poverty there were very few street beggars. Every single car you saw was a Lada. Was back again 10 years later in 2001 and there were street beggars absolutely everywhere and I saw an unbelievable amount of Ferraris and Lamborghinis on the streets. The inequality there is completely off the scale, it really is an extreme form of capitalism. Another mate was at the 2018 World Cup there and said there were so many beggars you'd be tripping over them in the streets. By that point Moscow was pretty much developed, there were skyscrapers to put New York in the ha'penny place.

Anyway good article and photos here of Putins $1.4bn palace on the Black Sea complete with indoor ice rink for his hockey games. Theres a video in there of him playing ice hockey with professional players a few years back. Its real emperor has no clothes kind of stuff, no one will tackle him and the keeper barely makes an attempt to save the puck, he scored 8 goals :rolleyes: Theres egg all over his face though when he trips and falls over a red carpet that was presumably laid out for him, the irony.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/38876/putin-has-created-the-ultimate-bond-villain-lair

Mad_maxx

ElektroToad wrote: »

True enough, but the US gives those regimes a pass because they are compliant and agreeable with US global interests

Putin is nothing of the sort and is focused promoting Russia's own interests, rather than pandering to the West. But that doesn't deny the fact that he, his family, and his inner circle from his time as a KGB operative in East Germeny etc have all enriched themselves at the expenses of the people via mega government run companies involved in gas, oil, metals, diamonds etc.

I'm no expert but I reckon Putin is in a real bind. I personally believed that he would've tried to retire after 21 years at the helm but I think the problem is that he can't retire! His popularity within Russia is finally weakening as people's living standards have been declining over the past 5-6 years. He has failed to find a loyal, popular potential successor to grant him protection / immunity when he and his family try to sail into the sunset...

All the above is why I reckon Navalny is now being seen as a more serious threat than before

Russia is probably ungovernable as a european type democracy , its vastness alone guarentees it , whether its an out and out " gangster state " ? , i dont know

Russia has no reason to trust the West however , imagine if the soviets had won the cold war and invited mexico or Canada to join a pact , no way would the americans tolerate it yet Nato are right next door to Russia

Muahahaha

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Russia is probably ungovernable as a european type democracy , its vastness alone guarentees it , whether its an out and out " gangster state " ? , i dont know

It is, the Russian mafia are on a par with the Italian mob and there isnt any part of Russian society that they dont pervade. In the Wikileaks cables the FBI described Russia as a mafia state with over 300,000 criminals spread across thousands of organised crime groups. And just like the Italians they have internationalised too, they have footholds all over the old USSR and in the US too with a few of their mob leaders on FBI Most Wanted lists.

Lots of westerners have gone to Russia to do business over the years and found themselves on the wrong side of the Russian mob and lost fortunes. It may not begin with them doing business directly a branch of the Russian mafia but it will often end up that way as Sean Quinn and his family found out quickly enough. They moved some 500 million of assets to Russia after the collapse of Anglo and lost control of the lot. Every time you buy car or house insurance in Ireland you'll see a levy there to pay for it.

ElektroToad

Yes no doubt Russia is a corrupt country and not a place for the faint hearted.

But going back to Navalny, the interesting thing about this guy is that I'm not sure what he stands for. He's been knocking around as an opposition figure for many years now, but there's nothing to suggest his political views are overly pro-Western, democracy-loving etc. His main platform to date is purely anti-corruption and exposing the dodgy schemes of the ruling elites.

All my knowledge on the Russian political scene is a good few year out of date by now, so would be interesting to know if anyone here knows more about this lad beyond what we get from Western media

Gatling

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Russia has no reason to trust the West however , imagine if the soviets had won the cold war and invited mexico or Canada to join a pact , no way would the americans tolerate it yet Nato are right next door to Russia

But if Russia stopped threatening its neighbours who they share borders ,there wouldn't be a NATO ,
It's fear from Russian aggression, Ukraine , Poland , Georgia,Moldova and several other have faced threats .
Nobody is threatening Russia , remember they invaded and annexed Ukraine and an agreement of mutual friendship and non aggression if Ukraine handed nukes over ,
And look how that works out

ElektroToad

Gatling wrote: »

But if Russia stopped threatening its neighbours who they share borders ,there wouldn't be a NATO ,
It's fear from Russian aggression, Ukraine , Poland , Georgia,Moldova and several other have faced threats .
Nobody is threatening Russia , remember they invaded and annexed Ukraine and an agreement of mutual friendship and non aggression if Ukraine handed nukes over ,
And look how that works out

That's one way of looking at it. Here's another more, say we shall, "Russian nationalist" perspective:

After the cold war, the US and NATO have effectively encircled Russia (troops in Germany, forward radar bases in Poland / Czechia). The US has also been shown to interfere in the local politics of former USSR states (e.g. Ukraine, Georgia etc) in recent decades to support pro-Western
politicians.

By isolating Russia from it's closest neighbors in the international stage like this, it's political clout is greatly weakened to the point it cannot defend, promote it's own interests as a counter-balance to the US historic role of being the world's "global policeman".

Re Ukraine: Yes, ballsy move by Russia to send in the troops to annex the Crimea and could have risked all out war. But one could argue that Putin's hand was forced to take drastic action in a fit of panic as he needed to secure the Crimea. The Russian Black Sea Fleet is stationed there and so it was of massive importance to Russian national security. It's loss to an "anti-Russia" regime in Ukraine would have been seen as a catastrophic loss.

Gatling

ElektroToad wrote: »

The US has also been shown to interfere in the local politics of former USSR states (e.g. Ukraine, Georgia etc) in recent decades to support pro-Western
.

In the face of russian aggression .

Georgia and Ukraine are prime examples .
But russia pushing more and more troops to borders with its Eastern Europe neighbors not NATO or American bases but russian bases ,
Putin doesn't want any country to be able to defend themselves against his aggression ,sure lets blame it on NATO

Muahahaha

Over 2,000 arrests in Russia today, meanwhile Russia Today is covering a minor protest in Tunisia

ElektroToad

Muahahaha wrote: »

Over 2,000 arrests in Russia today, meanwhile Russia Today is covering a minor protest in Tunisia

No surprises there. I have a soft spot for Russia but no one can deny that RT is just a Kremlin-backed propaganda outlet (admittedly a rather glossy one that caught a younger me off-guard many years ago)

At this point, pretty much all the domestic big players in traditional mass media (TV, printed press) in Russia have been neutered and fall in line with the pro-Kremlin narrative. Hence why Putin is now trying to clamp down on the internet and social media, as this is where the opposition now gathers.

However 2,000 arrests isn't much at all...I don't think these protests will reach the critical mass needed to force Navalny's release.

mick087

Alexei Navalny could be the start of a uprising within Russia.
You can only go so long with no democracy or accountability for ones leaders before people wonder what future they want for there kids.

I say this small uprising will be delt with in a brutal manner.

Dohnjoe

mick087 wrote: »

Alexei Navalny could be the start of a uprising within Russia.

I very, very much doubt it. The nationalists form a large voting block and Putin has them sewn up, most other voters are apathetic, the system is rigged, key media outlets are cowed and in line and the Duma are just a rubber stamp outfit. A functional opposition party is non-existent (due to Kremlin persecution) so there's no viable alternative. Russians aren't stupid, they know he is corrupt, but they also know they can't get rid of him, and compared to pre-2000 the country is "paradise". People have repeatedly claimed for years that the Kim dynasty in NK was about to fall, that Maduro in Venezuela was about to lose power, that Assad in Syria was gone, nope, Putin is not under any big threat, these protests are relatively small and during the Russian winter/Covid they will likely fizzle out.

AMKC

Muahahaha wrote: »

Over 2,000 arrests in Russia today, meanwhile Russia Today is covering a minor protest in Tunisia

Whatever happened to Russia Today on Sky? It's no longer on it. Not that I miss it. It was decent and offered a different view of things years ago but it had started to be just another Russian propaganda machine recently.

Gatling

About 10,000 detained in two weeks ,makes wonder how many they can actually hold long term.
It's also Been reported putins Childhood friend claimed ownership of Putin's place which be claims will be a hotel currently undergoing renovations

https://news.sky.com/story/putins-childhood-judo-partner-claims-to-own-1bn-palace-linked-to-russian-leader-12204111

wes

Navalny is far right nationalist and I wouldn't call him the leader of the opposition either. The communists have more support than him from what I have heard.

Here he is marching with the far right in 2011:

Thousands of Russian nationalists march in Moscow


It amusing to see so many liberals making this man out to be some kind of hero. He would be far worse than Putin if he was put in charge and the last thing the world needs is an extremist far right nuclear power.

Hangdogroad

AMKC wrote: »

Whatever happened to Russia Today on Sky? It's no longer on it. Not that I miss it. It was decent and offered a different view of things years ago but it had started to be just another Russian propaganda machine recently.

It was always a Russian propaganda machine, maybe they were a bit more subtle before.

wes

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

He is to the right of us in Ireland but so is Biden, Russia under Putin invented the disinformation playbook now being used in US and UK to push narratives further and further right and up authoritarian axes.

He was marching with Nazi's, he is basically a Russian Trump. I am not fan of Putin, but Navalny isn't any better at all. Simply put, I don't trust anyone who makes common cause with Nazi's.

ElektroToad

wes wrote: »

He was marching with Nazi's, he is basically a Russian Trump. I am not fan of Putin, but Navalny isn't any better at all. Simply put, I don't trust anyone who makes common cause with Nazi's.

Correct he was briefly associated with those groups, but that was about 10 years ago. Hard to say if those are still his views, as he doesn't seem to have any political platform these days beyond anti-corruption.

Not sure if anyone truly sees Navalny as a possible future President of Russia, but rather a big nuisance with the potential to seriously de-stabilize Putin's regime.

Polar101

wes wrote: »

He was marching with Nazi's, he is basically a Russian Trump. I am not fan of Putin, but Navalny isn't any better at all. Simply put, I don't trust anyone who makes common cause with Nazi's.

The current events might make the next elections a bit less predictable, if there is more than one candidate.

wes

ElektroToad wrote: »

Correct he was briefly associated with those groups, but that was about 10 years ago. Hard to say if those are still his views, as he doesn't seem to have any political platform these days beyond anti-corruption.

I don't see anything from him, that would make me believe he has changed those views. There have been plenty of people who stop saying extremist stuff, to get support from people, to try and clean up there image. He is at best highly suspect imo, but I think if you march with Nazi's, well then you are a Nazi. I would bare minimum expect him to come out strongly against such groups for the rest of his career and I see no real evidence of that.

ElektroToad

To be honest even if he did continue to voice far-right views, I'm not sure it would hurt him politically amongst the local population. No doubt it would make him less palatable in the eyes of the US, EU etc.

One should keep in mind that Russia is not a country that really concerns itself with identity politics or gender equality issues that has gripped the West over the past decade. It's still a place of traditional gender roles, sexual orientations and I'd reckon racism is not on the radar at all!

For them - it's all about the economy as a fair chunk of the population is in poverty by international standards.

Elmer Blooker

ElektroToad wrote: »

Correct he was briefly associated with those groups, but that was about 10 years ago. Hard to say if those are still his views, as he doesn't seem to have any political platform these days beyond anti-corruption.

Not sure if anyone truly sees Navalny as a possible future President of Russia, but rather a big nuisance with the potential to seriously de-stabilize Putin's regime.

Sure I'm anti corruption, does that make me a politician?
You won't hear this on the woke media but he once compared Muslims to cockroaches.
I doubt if he can destabilise Putin, the last thing Russians want is another Yeltsin.

wes

ElektroToad wrote: »

To be honest even if he did continue to voice far-right views, I'm not sure it would hurt him politically amongst the local population. No doubt it would make him less palatable in the eyes of the US, EU etc.

One should keep in mind that Russia is not a country that really concerns itself with identity politics or gender equality issues that has gripped the West over the past decade. It's still a place of traditional gender roles, sexual orientations and I'd reckon racism is not on the radar at all!

For them - it's all about the economy as a fair chunk of the population is in poverty by international standards.

I understand that, but it is amusing to see so many western liberals who hated Trump, supporting what seems to be a Russian version. Surely people should do the bare minimum and google who the guy is, just because someone is against a despotic regime doesn't make them the good guy.

For example the regime in Saudi Arabia is despotic, and Osama Bin Laden hated the rule house of saud. As we know he wasn't any better than the house of saud. Also see the Iranian dissidents supported by the West, who range from Royalists (who were despots when they were in charge), to the bizarre Islamic cult the MLK.

ElektroToad

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Sure I'm anti corruption, does that make me a politician?
You won't hear this on the woke media but he once compared Muslims to cockroaches.
I doubt if he can destabilise Putin, the last thing Russians want is another Yeltsin.

By Russian standards yeah it probably does make you a politican. Most don't really support anything. They are mostly vetted and approved by the regime to run for election. :pac:

But I think you hit the nail on the head. The reason why Putin is still tolerated is that no one wants to regress to the Yeltsin days. The is a big fear that if Putin goes, chaos will prevail once again