Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny 'poisoned'

Loafing Oaf

mick087 wrote: »

Alexei Navalny could be the start of a uprising within Russia.
You can only go so long with no democracy or accountability for ones leaders before people wonder what future they want for there kids.

I say this small uprising will be delt with in a brutal manner.

Speculation in yesterday's Sunday Times that Putin is fed up with ruling, would quit only he would likely end up in prison or worse. If this is true surely asylum could be arranged forn him in Belarus or Serbia or somewhere so he could be guaranteed to live out his days in safety and comfort...

Overheal

I see someone immolated themselves in Moscow:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=https://www.rbc.ua/rus/styler/odin-protestuyushchih-podzheg-sebya-tsentre-1612102058.html&prev=search&pto=aue

They're in critical condition in hospital. Bystanders managed to put him out.

Gatling

Overheal wrote: »

I see someone immolated themselves in Moscow:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=https://www.rbc.ua/rus/styler/odin-protestuyushchih-podzheg-sebya-tsentre-1612102058.html&prev=search&pto=aue

They're in critical condition in hospital. Bystanders managed to put him out.

That's not happened too many times in Russian protest's at least that I can remember ,
Protests in 200 cities according to that article ,
Definitely the protests aren't exactly isolated occurrences

ElektroToad

The Moscow Times is generally tailored towards English-speaking expats in Russia, but the below gives a solid overview of Navalny's antics over the past 2 decades, for those of you who want a better idea of what this guy is all about.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/02/01/true-beliefs-and-opportunism-navalnys-tangled-political-development-a72797

Gatling

ElektroToad wrote: »

The Moscow Times is

So he's not a terrorist , killer or Child abuser ,so the complete opposite to putin so

IAMAMORON

Whenever I am going about my business I don't get up to much. I keep my head down and concentrate and what I am doing. I try to avoid distractions.

But I hate Wasps, they get in my way and spoil my food. They irritate me and even though they pose only a small threat to my existence, I become very wary of them when they get in my face.

If I am having my lunch and a Wasp is at the table I will swipe out at the Wasp and hope he phucks off. I just want to get on with my lunch.

But if he comes back..... and still spoils my lunch....... I get up out of my seat and kill him.

I would say the prison authorities in Moscow are scoping out potential lifers looking for monthly conjugal visits as I type. Emperor Putin is hungry and wants to finish his lunch in peace.

In Russian politics you are either a Wasp, or someone looking to eat their lunch. You need to choose wisely.

Dohnjoe

A judge is considering jailing Navalny for years for wait for it, breaking probation on that "embezzlement charge", i.e. not reporting to Russian police while he was poisoned with and recovering from the Novichok attack. Russia has gone from the pretense of a democracy to a straight up tinpot dictatorship.

Dohnjoe

Dohnjoe wrote: »

A judge is considering jailing Navalny for years for wait for it, breaking probation on that "embezzlement charge", i.e. not reporting to Russian police while he was poisoned with and recovering from the Novichok attack. Russia has gone from the pretense of a democracy to a straight up tinpot dictatorship.

I’d laugh if it wasn’t so serious. That is mental.

Gatling

Not unexpected hopefully protests really ramp up now ,
Things could get messy
Alexei Navalny, the Russian opposition leader and fierce critic of President Vladimir Putin, has been sentenced to three-and-a-half years in prison.

Mr Navalny, 44, was jailed at the Simonovsky District Court in Moscow over allegations he violated the conditions of a suspended sentence he received in 2014 for money laundering.

Navalny told the judge: "You can't put the whole country in jail."

https://news.sky.com/story/alexei-navalny-russian-opposition-leader-and-putin-critic-sentenced-to-three-and-a-half-years-in-prison-12206196

Gatling

Did anyone catch the Clare Daly rant about Russophobia today at the EU council meeting, while playing Navalny as some bad guy in all of this
She made a complete thick out of herself

ohnonotgmail

Gatling wrote: »

Did anyone catch the Clare Daly rant about Russophobia today at the EU council meeting, while playing Navalny as some bad guy in all of this
She made a complete thick out of herself

just watched it on YT. she has always been a thick so this is no surprise.

FTA69

Gatling wrote: »

Did anyone catch the Clare Daly rant about Russophobia today at the EU council meeting, while playing Navalny as some bad guy in all of this
She made a complete thick out of herself

She was dead right. The cheek of the likes of the Americans or French or Brits criticising anyone when they’re bosom buddies with the likes of the Saudis and Erdogan. Navalny is a minor political figure being elevated into this saint-like hero of democracy when his politics and polemics make Donald Trump look like Michael D Higgins.

We’re seeing a massive ramp up in Cold War-style b*llocks regards Russia and China at the moment and it’s something we could do without.

Labaik

FTA69 wrote: »

She was dead right. The cheek of the likes of the Americans or French or Brits criticising anyone when they’re bosom buddies with the likes of the Saudis and Erdogan. Navalny is a minor political figure being elevated into this saint-like hero of democracy when his politics and polemics make Donald Trump look like Michael D Higgins.

We’re seeing a massive ramp up in Cold War-style b*llocks regards Russia and China at the moment and it’s something we could do without.

Navalny is a fascist. Didn't he once call all Georgians, rodents :pac:

Elmer Blooker

Labaik wrote: »

Navalny is a fascist. Didn't he once call all Georgians, rodents :pac:

He called Muslims cockroaches.
He was expelled from a political party called Yabloko for his extreme anti immigration opinions.

Gatling

FTA69 wrote: »

We’re seeing a massive ramp up in Cold War-style b*llocks regards Russia and China at the moment and it’s something we could do without.

It never went away but from Georgia to Ukraine putin has been emboldened by the fact he's litterally getting away with murder and invasions and occupations while telling the world , were not doing anything it's all America and Europe saying stuff that's not true ,
Flight MH17 was a prime example they spent 4 years denying any involvement including releasing their own fake investigation and as trying to get Shot Down removed from the the various investigations texts and documents ,
China is planning to be the top dog in the next 10 years with no competition on the worlds stage ,from diplomatics , business and military wise ,
Remember it's the Chinese claiming the whole South china sea right up to other countries beaches ,they have already made laws for the Chinese coast guard to attack and sink fishing vessels they believe are in their waters , including everyone's terrorial and economic areas ,
The word Russophobia was created as a way to excuse russian antics around the world ,
Being the Kremlin controls all the media and internet in Russia it's hard to believe anything that comes out the media ,

FTA69

Gatling wrote: »

It never went away but from Georgia to Ukraine putin has been emboldened by the fact he's litterally getting away with murder and invasions and occupations while telling the world , were not doing anything it's all America and Europe saying stuff that's not true ,
Flight MH17 was a prime example they spent 4 years denying any involvement including releasing their own fake investigation and as trying to get Shot Down removed from the the various investigations texts and documents ,
China is planning to be the top dog in the next 10 years with no competition on the worlds stage ,from diplomatics , business and military wise ,
Remember it's the Chinese claiming the whole South china sea right up to other countries beaches ,they have already made laws for the Chinese coast guard to attack and sink fishing vessels they believe are in their waters , including everyone's terrorial and economic areas ,
The word Russophobia was created as a way to excuse russian antics around the world ,
Being the Kremlin controls all the media and internet in Russia it's hard to believe anything that comes out the media ,

I’ve no time for Putin and little time for China but this idea that they’re unduly expansionist aggressive threats to democracy etc again rings hollow when you contrast them with the USA and NATO et al. Do Russia have military bases all over the world? Does China? Has China in the habit of invading other countries? Running death squads and supporting terrorists? When’s the last time China fired missiles at another country?

For twenty years we essentially had American hegemony such to the point groups like Project for New American Century consisting of top government officials used to brazenly publish documents about which country they’d invade next. That hegemony existed not for the benefit of the world at large or for democracy or any of that but for the aggrandisement of a political and economic elite. Now that hegemony is no longer absolute we’re hearing all manner of tantrums about the evil Chinese etc. It’s b*llocks.

As for Russophobia; it has become a trend for liberal politicians to blame Russia for anything and everything rather than examine their own failings. I don’t think the Russians are above the odd malevolent nudge but the idea they’re mass directing breaks from the political norm is fantasy bordering on conspiracy theory. People blamed Russia for Trump’s election rather than acknowledging how terrible Clinton was. They blamed Brexit on Russia rather than admit it was a mix of very p*ssed off working class people and Daily Mail jingoism. They’re now suggesting Russia is behind recent moves toward Scottish independence. It’s pathetic.

Lastly, Russia and China aren’t my problem. It isn’t Putin charging people 1300 quid a month to live in a shoebox and it isn’t Xi Jinping who’s flogging off our public services to the highest bidder. That’s our own class of arseholes doing that; and they present a far greater threat to the average person’s wellbeing that some bogeyman in the East.

FTA69

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Tl,dr whataboutism XYZ ^^

Classic Tactic #1 when it comes to Russia, I am sure you can find a thread on each unrelated issue you mentioned on this site

Let’s get back to discussing a dictatorship that poisons people with military grade nuclear and chemical agents

Ah yes “Classic Tactic”, of what exactly? The tactic of not wanting to be sold some bogeyman in the East who I’m supposed to care about and blame for my problems?

When various countries are cosying up to the Saud family and Erdogan why should I be convinced Russia is an immediate threat to me? Sorry, but you don’t get to criticise dictators with a straight face when you’re also supporting dictators.

You have nefarious establishments in various countries throwing digs at each other for influence, decency and democracy doesn’t come into it at all.

IAMAMORON

FTA69 wrote: »

As for Russophobia; it has become a trend for liberal politicians to blame Russia for anything and everything rather than examine their own failings. I don’t think the Russians are above the odd malevolent nudge but the idea they’re mass directing breaks from the political norm is fantasy bordering on conspiracy theory. People blamed Russia for Trump’s election rather than acknowledging how terrible Clinton was. They blamed Brexit on Russia rather than admit it was a mix of very p*ssed off working class people and Daily Mail jingoism. They’re now suggesting Russia is behind recent moves toward Scottish independence. It’s pathetic.

Here here. The rest of what you said is mostly true also.

The West is too fond of creating these polarising enemies to contrast their own societal failings with, everyone should try to see through it.

In Russia or China you are not obligated to have a masters degrees and a 6 figure salary and be in your 30's and have a double income before you can start a 2.2 kid family and give half your money to a sinking pension fund for fear of you not having a hospital bed. These truths often get overlooked.

Instead we hear the horror stories about bread queues and bad weather. I watched the soccer on the box a few years ago, Moscow looked resplendent in the mid evening summer sun. I doubt it is that bad of an existence all said. We have people living on the streets with no homes here also.... go figure.

IAMAMORON

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I recommend you take a few months trip to Russia, especially outside Moscow once the borders reopen. And actually talk to Russian people or ask any who live here what’s it like.

It’s hilarious seeing posters try to equate life in west to life in Russia as an excuse for an undemocratic dictatorship

I am not that arsed to be honest, I can't afford to go for starters.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking I am some sort of leftie communist either.

My point is that we are constantly told how poor the East is and better off we are over here etc etc. I just prefer to believe that the truth is somewhere in between.

I have spoken to lots of people from the Eastern block, I have heard all the butter voucher stories ( we had the same here 25 years ago btw ). I dated a Romanian girl before who told me she had to wear a uniform to school ... as if that was some type of a chore. I wore one to school too you know?

Somewhere in the middle of everything is usually where the truth lies. It fits western democracy, laden with all its' own failings, to cast aspersions at everywhere else. If it is not the brazen dictatorships of China and Russia, it is the tree burning corruption of South America... or the tribal intransigence of central Africa.....

The fact remains that different parts of the globe exhibit different cultures and lifestyles for a reason. 104 years ago the Russian Monarchy were taken out of their beds and brought to a nearby wood and shot dead and their bodies were burnt and hidden. It looks like they have come a long way in 104 years.

Navalny is lucky he is not heading to a Gulag in Siberia.... to get a new Tattoo.

FTA69

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Speak to actual Russians not Eastern European’s, even during Iron Curtain days life in eastern block was better than USSR, after the fall both blocks rapidly diverged in a quality of life.

Life outside the glitz of Moscow (which is its own universe powered by decades of corruption) is downright dreary and dystopian, life expectancy for men is at sub Saharan levels altogether, you specifically mentioned healthcare, I guessed you missed the national sport that doctors jumping from balconies has become in last year in Russia

Don’t be so quick to defend Putins regime, he is keeping what could be a great country and people from its potential, in pursuit of weird 19th century dreams.

I don’t think anyone is defending Putin at all. People are questioning the growing narrative about Russia whereby it’s portrayed as being some evil mastermind of political fault lines in Europe and America that are now emerging.

It’s perfectly reasonable not to want hear lectures about a threat to international peace from those who are up to their balls in force projection across the world.

IAMAMORON

I am 100% confident that Putin is a complete and utter chunt, I don't think anyone is arguing that. I am also 100% confident that he murders anyone that crosses him.

But as I alluded to in my previous post, Russia is Russia. These are the norms in running that society. People are too quick to criticize. Putin was a runner for Boris Yeltsin, he licked ass for 25 years until he saw a gap in the market and went for it. In fact it is highly likely he orchestrated much of it, including Yeltsin's demise. He is simply no fool.

After that you can bitch and moan about how badly or poorly off the Russians are. But from what I see they certainly have a lot more options than they did under Andropov and if we want to talk about Joseph Stalin or the Romanovs I have all day, not really, that was a figure of speech.

I am not saying that the current Russian political system is perfect ( or China's ), but the reality is we only see it though the eyes of our own democracy. As I said before the argument over how our own democracy serves its' citizens is very much open to debate. We are not perfect either.

IAMAMORON

Whilst I accept that it would be highly enjoyable to visit Russia, I don't think I would really get the feel of the place.

All I am going to do is take a few pickies of the Kremlin, head to a boozer for the afternoon and visit the Bolshoi museum. I will probably walk around talking to myself in crap Russian and get ripped off several times.

If I go in the winter I might catch an overpriced game of Ice Hockey... but I am not that keen on the -20 degrees rumours I keep hearing about.

I think I might go to Rome for the weekend instead, sorry.

FTA69

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Fair enough tho you must have forgotten Crimean annexation or the conflicts in Ukraine and Georgia

In your anti liberal knee jerk reaction you are giving a free pass to a truly evil regime, kinda how some commentators in 30s were praising Germany while truly evil foundations where being set

Once again actually go and see what it’s like, it’s quite a safe country to visit and people are great craic (outside Moscow) these people are despondent when it comes to the tzar in Kremlin, they know and openly talk about being held back while the oligarchs transfer wealth to London and Switzerland

Ah yes, because I don’t agree with a new Cold War driven by American anger about them not being allowed to do what they want, when they want to whoever they want in pursuit of their own strategic and economic interest - I’m the equivalent to those who supported the Nazis. I haven’t once “praised” Putin and your suggestion that I have done is false and your comparison with those who enabled a genocidal fanatical regime that openly regarded people as slaves is ridiculous to say the least.

The only points I’ve made here are 1) Putin is a bad man but he isn’t the cause of all our problems and 2) I don’t fancy being lectured on the threat to world peace by some f*cking Tory politician who also supports flogging British arms to Saudi Arabia to drop on starving children while lauding the Turkish equivalent of Putin as a great lad because he’s in NATO.

I’m all for a reasoned discussion but your ‘everyone who disagrees with me is the same as Hitler’ craic is just bad faith rubbish to be honest.

FTA69

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

In your rush to side with Putin because you disagree with Westminster or Washington politics (it’s ok I disagree with it too) you are giving Putin and his evil regime a free pass.

Have you considered that Putin is actually an evil ahole who hijacked Russian politics and economy and peoples futures to line the pockets of his mafia buddies and will do anything to not endup sodomised Gadaffi style, up to and including threatening peace in Europe by annexing his neighbours (because a country with largest land area can never have enough)

Your reasoning is very infantile, the enemy of your perceived enemy is not your friend

Infantile? You’re the one repeatedly saying I’m “siding with Putin” when I’ve repeatedly expressed on this thread that I’ve no time for the Russian regime and have said that he’s a bad dictator. Yes mate, that’s definitely unqualified support alright. And because I’ve criticised a hypocritical narrative from other warmongers who support some of the worst regimes in the world, I’m also the equivalent of those who praised the Nazis. Yes, I’m definitely the infantile one here. Ridiculous.

What’s infantile is your suggestion I have to unreservedly back the likes of NATO etc because Putin is a tramp - the very sort of binary thinking you’re accusing me of having. This is exactly the sort of rubbish we heard around the time of the Iraq War, ‘you’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists’ as George Bush said before he went off to kill hundreds of thousands of people in the Middle East.

Gatling

Alexei Navalny was back in court today on Defamation charges against a veteran soldier who fought in ww2 ,who appeared in a propaganda movie promoting the Kremlins latest power grab aka reforms could looking at another 2 years added to his sentence

The charges relate to a video released last year in support of changes to the constitution that allow Vladimir Putin to remain in power until 2036. Navalny said those who agreed to appear in the clip, including the 95-year-old second world war veteran Ignat Artemenko, were “the shame of the country”.

If convicted, the 44-year-old faces a fine or community service. The law was recently toughened to make slander punishable with two years’ imprisonment, but Navalny’s lawyer said this was not applicable as the alleged crime took place before the change.

FTA69

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Back in the real world there isn’t an imaginary plan to invade Russia by NATO (us is too busy with internal crap, uk is busy stabbing itself and Eu is busy with Covid)

Back in the real world Russians are standing up and protesting in freezing weather against an incredibly corrupt regime which is what this thread is about


I recommend laying of whatever you are smoking which is making you imagine a western conspiracy to invade Russia, more than likely China will just buy Siberia in next few decades while corrupt Russian elite count their renminbi

Once again has it occurred to you that Russians might not be too happy with two decades of barely progressing under Putin while all surrounding countries (including China) are getting ahead. With blatant corruption being flaunted in their face.

I never said there’s a conspiracy to invade Russia at all. You’re absolutely incapable of addressing points being made and seem to be only good for strawman nonsense from what I can see.

I’m sure a lot of Russians are annoyed, they’ve a right to be. There’s also a huge swathe of Russia that supports Putin. And while Putin is bad, people are fully entitled to examine and question who Navalny is and what he believes as well as interrogate his ahem ‘questionable’ opinions on certain matters.

Gatling

FTA69 wrote: »

I’m sure a lot of Russians are annoyed, they’ve a right to be. There’s also a huge swathe of Russia that supports Putin.

But do they really , they have had zero choice since he was elected ,no opposition allowed ,all candidates are selected by the Kremlin only ,it's in noway democratic and if you speak up against Putin you get murdered , just look at the press Russia is one of the most deadly countries to work in ,
Even doctors and nurses who spoke out about the covid death's and lack of action in russia fell off high rise buildings after speaking out

FTA69

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

That’s the point ain’t it? neither Navalny nor anyone else who could oppose Putin is allowed to live long enough to stand in a fair and free elections versus a corrupt regime.

You are the one who tried to derail thread from this discussion by use of whataboutisms and bringing up conspiracies that west wants to invade Russia.

You’re just openly lying again now mate. Where did I say the West wants to invade Russia? I’ve made a handful of posts on this thread so it shouldn’t be hard to find. (You won’t though because you’re strawmanning and spoofing)

Also I derailed f*ck all, I made a point in rebuttal to Gatling’s post about Clare Daly saying I thought that she had a point. Sin é.

FTA69

Gatling wrote: »

But do they really , they have had zero choice since he was elected ,no opposition allowed ,all candidates are selected by the Kremlin only ,it's in noway democratic and if you speak up against Putin you get murdered , just look at the press Russia is one of the most deadly countries to work in ,
Even doctors and nurses who spoke out about the covid death's and lack of action in russia fell off high rise buildings after speaking out

There have been a multitude of polls done from a multitude of sources suggesting Putin retains around 60% popularity (albeit falling).

It is possible to be a dictator and anti democratic and also have popular support. Erdogan is a key example, a man who throws political opponents in jail, targets journalists etc and presides over a thuggish state security system but it’s still not a stretch to say most Turks support him. Modi is another example.

timmyntc

Gatling wrote: »

But do they really , they have had zero choice since he was elected ,no opposition allowed ,all candidates are selected by the Kremlin only ,it's in noway democratic and if you speak up against Putin you get murdered , just look at the press Russia is one of the most deadly countries to work in ,
Even doctors and nurses who spoke out about the covid death's and lack of action in russia fell off high rise buildings after speaking out

Exactly, Putin is a tyrant but people are too scared to speak out for fear they will get assassina-