General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

niallo27

jayo26 wrote: »

Agree, they look so shaky in defence and salah didnt look one bit too happy. Interesting times ahead.

tayto lover wrote: »

They do look shaky at the back. They’ll have to fix that.

They are missing 3 of the 4 regular starters back there.

Abel Ruiz

dfx- wrote: »

It's not a bad decision by the ref either.

In slow motion, it's a clear penalty. VAR is re-refereeing the game...

So.
Everyone moaned when the ref missed fouls/goals/cheating in the past.
Now the technology is there to help the ref and make the correct decision.

It's a clear penalty as you say. So therefore no one should be moaning.

Is it because the penalty was against Liverpool? Is that the problem?

NoviGlitzko

This BT pundit interviewing Klopp is an awful egit.

jayo26

tayto lover wrote: »

They do look shaky at the back. They’ll have to fix that.

I can see them signing a few defenders in January to make up for the mistakes on the summer. They might habe to settle for loan signings if the cash doesnt stretch.

tayto lover

tayto lover wrote: »

They do look shaky at the back. They’ll have to fix that.
Klopp getting very stroppy in his interview too.

He tends to get stroppy whenever things don't go his way

Has this arrogant streak to him, especially when pundits ask sticky questions

Shanotheslayer

niallo27 wrote: »

I said Liverpool are on the wrong side of a lot of VAR decisions this season, add in 3 more today.

You said Var decisions 'against them'. None of those decisions are incorrect(Today). It's just a correct decision. Bit like saying '' Jesus VAR is doing the correct job against Liverpool' It makes no sense.

Against them would mean they are wrong decisions.

I asked earlier about the list that VAR openly admitted they got wrong. I know their are a few. To me those would be VAR decisions against.

darced

Somehow with everything going against us we are still top, should still be an easy canter to the title if we can hang in there until we get the injuries sorted.

~Rebel~

In the cold light of day, starting with only 1 first choice defender, and 1 first choice midfielder, and giving away 2 penalties, an away draw’s not a bad result at all.

Can only thank god at least the forwards are thus far unscathed while defence and midfield are torn asunder.

dfx-

Abel Ruiz wrote: »

So.
Everyone moaned when the ref missed fouls/goals/cheating in the past.
Now the technology is there to help the ref and make the correct decision.

It's a clear penalty as you say. So therefore no one should be moaning.

Is it because the penalty was against Liverpool? Is that the problem?

I couldn't care less who it was against. It's a clear penalty when you slow it down and show it in isolation.

That is not how games are refereed or how they should be or were ever officiated. Decisions in frames or fractions of a second are not helping the referee. Putting peer pressure on the referee to go to the screen is not helping the referee.

There is no correct decision - the ref interprets the laws of the game as he/she sees it. Chasing 'rules' which are black and white has brought us to technology. The laws - especially handball and offside have been butchered to fit the technology where there is no interpretation so that nobody accepts them anymore.

These decisions are now being given on the basis of what technology needs the 'rules' to be, not what a referee gives or the laws were designed for.

It is being refereed at two speeds - one in real time and one in slow motion.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Salah been huffing and puffing for a while now
He's overrated IMO

Actually think Mane is the better player

The stats say differently.

murpho999

jayo26 wrote: »

Agree, they look so shaky in defence and salah didnt look one bit too happy. Interesting times ahead.

He didn't look happy?

He was happy when he scored.

Salah was not happy being subbed, which is always good to see.

The stuff people come up with.

Also a makeshift defence looking shaky is hardly shocking although I thought they did very well, especially Phillips.

rossie1977

If Brighton had two goals disallowed by VAR and Liverpool given two penalties by VAR one in injury time I can just imagine the reaction from non Liverpool fans....

paulie21

Deleted User wrote: »

He tends to get stroppy whenever things don't go his way

Has this arrogant streak to him, especially when pundits ask sticky questions

LOL wasn't the great Ole whinging about the same thing few weeks ago

eigrod

dfx- wrote: »

I couldn't care less who it was against. It's a clear penalty when you slow it down and show it in isolation.

That is not how games are refereed or how they should be or were ever officiated. Decisions in frames or fractions of a second are not helping the referee. Putting peer pressure on the referee to go to the screen is not helping the referee.

There is no correct decision - the ref interprets the laws of the game as he/she sees it. Chasing 'rules' which are black and white has brought us to technology.

It is being refereed at two speeds - one in real time and one in slow motion.

That’s exactly it and in a game that was played and refereed at speed for 120 years, its massively difficult to get used to this adjustment. Will we ever adjust to it? I’m not sure we will - they’re picking up on things that were never picked up on before, and not picking up on equivalent things so it’s not near consistent enough.

They’ve raised the bar now to that contact without getting the ball in the penalty area is a penalty, but they don’t and never will be consistent with it.

DM_7

VAR imo is a benefit to the game and refs should he able to review their own decisions in key moments.

What lets VAR down is the new handball rules and that offside is so strict that it is against the spirit of why the rule is there.

I think feet in line with defender as posters have suggested would be a sensible compromise in adjusting the rule there.

Mr.Nice Guy

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

No, Brighton played a great game. Are you going to bring this comment up every time Liverpool don't win a game?

Again you're comparing a 7-2 to a 1-1 and the opinion of a 'freak result'

Are you still insisting they are 'head and shoulders' above everyone else in the league? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, do they not? All of the evidence so far, whether we take the league table, or compare it to last season, or even assess games in isolation like today, do not remotely suggest this team are head and shoulders above the rest.

~Rebel~ wrote:

You were told that by another Utd fan, and no, it’s not a freak result. A 7-2 loss is a freak result. A 1-1 away draw is a pretty standard regular football result.

I think you're missing the point. I countered the initial claim by Shano that Liverpool were 'head and shoulders' above the rest by pointing out a team described as such shouldn't lose 7-2 to a team that last season were fighting relegation. This was met with cries that it was a freak result. See here and here. The inference being that they really are head and shoulders above the rest, and the Villa game shouldn't count. But the point is even taking the 7-2 out of the equation, the evidence does not so far support the idea that they are head and shoulders above the rest. They will be knocked off top spot tomorrow whatever happens.

Could it not be more likely and logical that Leicester, a side which choked in their Champions League race last season, and scraped a 3-3 draw with Braga midweek, were overhyped based on their Premier League record, and that the result over them by Liverpool was therefore overhyped, and led to many on here getting carried away about how good this team are? Is there not more evidence supporting that view?

jayo26

Right next game... Hopefully this turns out to be as good as the last.

murpho999

Deleted User wrote: »

He tends to get stroppy whenever things don't go his way

Has this arrogant streak to him, especially when pundits ask sticky questions

Yes successful managers are always warm and cuddly after a game doesn't go their way and has controversial decisions.

It's not arrogance, it's disappointment.

Stupid thing to say, every seen Guardiola after a game?

Or Fergie in his day? Very diffcult at times and he didn't even talk to BBC for 9 years.

Rock77

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I dont think its a peno,
If Robertson doesnt connect nothing in the incident changes, Welbck flicked a toe out and touched ball onto Robbos other foot and out
The fact Robbo slightly touched Welbecks foot changed nothing in the incident

Ah now, come on..

it’s ok to not get the ball and kick the opponent in the box because..........???

It doesn’t matter what may have happened if Robertson didn’t connect! Lol

He didn’t get the ball, he kicked Wellbeck..

Shanotheslayer

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Are you still insisting they are 'head and shoulders' above everyone else in the league? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, do they not? All of the evidence so far, whether we take the league table, or compare it to last season, or even assess games in isolation like today, do not remotely suggest this team are head and shoulders above the rest.

Yes, As an overall they are head and shoulders above and I'm including last season in that. This season they are still much better than the rest given their fixtures and their injuries.

The only reason they not flying away with it already is because of their injuries imo.

jayo26

jayo26 wrote: »

Right next game... Hopefully this turns out to be as good as the last.

Yep for sure. Happy Saturday lads

The White Wolf

murpho999 wrote: »

Yes successful managers are always warm and cuddly after a game doesn't go their way and has controversial decisions.

It's not arrogance, it's disappointment.

Stupid thing to say, every seen Guardiola after a game?

Or Fergie in his day? Very diffcult at times and he didn't even talk to BBC for 9 years.

That was Fergie though, all part of his overall managerial genius...... apparently.

CSF

DM_7 wrote: »

VAR imo is a benefit to the game and refs should he able to review their own decisions in key moments.

What lets VAR down is the new handball rules and that offside is so strict that it is against the spirit of why the rule is there.

I think feet in line with defender as posters have suggested would be a sensible compromise in adjusting the rule there.

I don't think so. VAR used minimally to overturn legitimate injustices is the best approach.

jayo26

Rock77 wrote: »

Ah now, come on..

it’s ok to not get the ball and kick the opponent in the box because..........???

It doesn’t matter what may have happened if Robertson didn’t connect! Lol

He didn’t get the ball, he kicked Wellbeck..

And that is the fact at the end of the day. No amount of alternative plot lines can change that.

eigrod

DM_7 wrote: »

VAR imo is a benefit to the game and refs should he able to review their own decisions in key moments.

What lets VAR down is the new handball rules and that offside is so strict that it is against the spirit of why the rule is there.

I think feet in line with defender as posters have suggested would be a sensible compromise in adjusting the rule there.

No, it’s the inconsistency is letting it down. The inconsistency, if anything, is worse than when it was human decision only. You will see defenders wrestle players in the box in every game which is a clear offence, but the VAR official is not asking the ref to look at those. They pick and choose what they consider an offence nowadays.

jayo26

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yep for sure. Happy Saturday lads

Happy Saturday to you too buddy.

jayo26

jayo26 wrote: »

And that is the fact at the end of the day. No amount of alternative plot lines can change that.

Again I find it very odd that anyone is finding controversy in it

BT are to blame too IMO

Finding controversy to drum up views like clickbait

Shanotheslayer

Mahrez 1-0

~Rebel~

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. I countered the initial claim by Shano that Liverpool were 'head and shoulders' above the rest by pointing out a team described as such shouldn't lose 7-2 to a team that last season were fighting relegation. This was met with cries that it was a freak result. See here and here. The inference being that they really are head and shoulders above the rest, and the Villa game shouldn't count. But the point is even taking the 7-2 out of the equation, the evidence does not so far support the idea that they are head and shoulders above the rest. They will be knocked off top spot tomorrow whatever happens.

First off all, the initial comment that sparked all this wasn't Shano, it was T.Hanks.

And no, I think the inference was that you can't base anything off a single result. A league is a league, not a knockout cup competition. You see who is the best based on a whooole bunch of games. You can win 37 games, and lose one game 7-2, and still be the best team. Being the best team in the league does not mean perfection.

For what it's worth, a full Liverpool team probably is the best team in the league. A Liverpool team with 1 starting defender and 1 starting midfielder definitely isn't. The latter is what we saw today. So the league and question of "who's the best" all depends on which side of those two extremes becomes the regular for the season.

Honestly, that point of view obviously really irritated you so at this stage instead of just raging about it on here every few days, why not PM T.Hanks who initially made the comment and vent your feelings. I think he'd probably agree with you at the moment, and then we can all move past it.

Shanotheslayer

~Rebel~ wrote: »

First off all, it wasn't Shano's comment that Liverpool were head and shoulders above the rest, it was T.Hanks.

And no, I think the inference was that you can't base anything off a single result. A league is a league, not a knockout cup competition. You see who is the best based on a whooole bunch of games. You can win 37 games, and lose one game 7-2, and still be the best team. Being the best team in the league does not mean perfection.

For what it's worth, a full Liverpool team probably is the best team in the league. A Liverpool team with 1 starting defender and 1 starting midfielder definitely isn't. The latter is what we saw today. So the league and question of "who's the best" all depends on which side of those two extremes becomes the regular for the season.

Honestly, the "head and shoulders" comment obviously really irritated you so at this stage instead of just raging about it on here every few days, why not PM T.Hanks who initially made the comment and vent your feelings. I think he'd probably agree with you at the moment, and then we can all move past it.

To be fair I replied to T.hanks echoing his thoughts and said they were head and shoulders above. I stand by it to tbh.

Agree it's pointless bringing it up every time they don't win. It's petty and contributes nothing.

Cookiemunster

CSF wrote: »

I don't think so. VAR used minimally to overturn legitimate injustices is the best approach.

It was a clear pen that wouldn't have been given without VAR. How is that not a 'legitimate injustice'?

Mr.Nice Guy

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Yes, As an overall they are head and shoulders above and I'm including last season in that. This season they are still much better than the rest given their fixtures and their injuries.

The only reason they not flying away with it already is because of their injuries imo.

Ah, heyor. Come on now, this is just goalpost-moving. How can you include last season in the discussion of whether they're a level above, when this season they have lost arguably the greatest defender in the world from their side? The injuries is precisely the point of why they are not now much better than the rest.

I'll reframe the question then: taking their current status into account, i.e with injuries and all, do you believe they are head and shoulders above the rest?

jayo26

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Again I find it very odd that anyone is finding controversy in it

BT are to blame too IMO

Finding controversy to drum up views like clickbait

Yep agree thats why i much prefer watching games on the supersport channels way better analysis.

It creeps into the fans mentality too thinking everything is against them when its not.

dfx-

DM_7 wrote: »

VAR imo is a benefit to the game and refs should he able to review their own decisions in key moments.

What lets VAR down is the new handball rules and that offside is so strict that it is against the spirit of why the rule is there.

I think feet in line with defender as posters have suggested would be a sensible compromise in adjusting the rule there.

VAR can't judge intent by looking at it, so the law was mangled to what we have now to suit it making a decision. Not to suit the referee, but to suit the technology.

In the past you could get a fussy ref for 90 minutes, a blind ref, a strict ref, a lenient ref, but at least you didn't get two refs and only for 'key' incidents.

Pundits, commentaries, radio phone-ins and coaches have brought this on themselves.

~Rebel~

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Ah, heyor. Come on now, this is just goalpost-moving. How can you include last season in the discussion of whether they're a level above, when this season they have lost arguably the greatest defender in the world from their side? The injuries is precisely the point of why they are not now much better than the rest.

I'll reframe the question then: taking their current status into account, i.e with injuries and all, do you believe they are head and shoulders above the rest?

Of course they're not. That seems like a kind of pointless discussion though doesn't it? Like, the status has literally changed several times since this was first brought up a week ago with Keita injured during the last league game, Milner now injured today, Shaqiri injured in training, and Matip out of the squad today.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Are you still insisting they are 'head and shoulders' above everyone else in the league? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, do they not? All of the evidence so far, whether we take the league table, or compare it to last season, or even assess games in isolation like today, do not remotely suggest this team are head and shoulders above the rest.

It's almost like there have been injuries and COVID infections to the best players in the team and that has hampered results and form....
Laughable how offended you are at the notion that one team could be better than the others. By your logic when Liverpool were beaten badly last year by Man City they could not claim to be better than everyone else, despite finishing 18 points above City. It's a silly argument you've been bringing up every week. The evidence for Liverpool being the best team is last years table when fully fit and this years table so far where we are top despite losing so many players so quickly.

CSF

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It was a clear pen that wouldn't have been given without VAR. How is that not a 'legitimate injustice'?

I don't think 'clear pen' applies here. Definitely more than 50% pen considering he does clumsily make contact, but its on the soft side by Premier League refereeing standards.


I don't think the referee would have been heavily inclined to give it even if he'd had a clear view of it in real time (which he might well have done).


Anything that requires a slowmo to spot, probably isn't a 'clear pen' for me.

Shanotheslayer

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Ah, heyor. Come on now, this is just goalpost-moving. How can you include last season in the discussion of whether they're a level above, when this season they have lost arguably the greatest defender in the world from their side? The injuries is precisely the point of why they are not now much better than the rest.

I'll reframe the question then: taking their current status into account, i.e with injuries and all, do you believe they are head and shoulders above the rest?

Why would you think I was even thinking they were so far above the rest if I was only talking about pretty much half their first team? Of course not. What are you looking for here?

Do I think they win the league even with their current squad status? Yes not by as much but think they still win it. Until they start losing at Anfield that opinion won't change.

All_in_Flynn

Delighted it was given but it's a very soft pen.

I do think Liverpool have come back to the chasing pack this year. They are still the best team in the league mind. There is a notable drop off in the intensity of their pressing this season. You could see some signs of it at the end of last season. It's extremely difficult to play at the level of intensity they have been for the last 2 seasons every season.

I also wonder is it starting to creep into the physical condition of the players. They have been incredibly fortunate to have the majority of their key players constantly fit the last couple of years but there seems to be more muscle injuries starting to happen now. I could be completely wrong on that view though.

You can see it with City too. They are not the same pressing monster they were a couple of seasons ago.

Shanotheslayer

2-0 Mahrez

Robbenesque

~Rebel~

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

Delighted it was given but it's very a soft pen.

I do think Liverpool have come back to the chasing pack this year. They are still the best team in the league mind. There is a notable drop off in the intensity of their pressing this season. You could see some signs of it at the end of last season. It's extremely difficult to play at the level of intensity they have been for the last 2 seasons every season.

I also wonder is it starting to creep into the physical condition of the players. They have been incredibly fortunate to have the majority of their key players constantly fit the last couple of years but their seems to be more muscle injuries starting to happen now. I could be completely wrong on that view though.

You can see it with City too. They are not the same pressing monster they were a couple of seasons ago.

I think it's happening with everyone really... we saw it with Brighton this morning. Think it's more down to the lack of pre-season for everyone, plus the crazy fixture congestion. Lots of injuries, meaning certain players have to be played even more, meaning they're then more susceptible to injuries themselves - vicious cycle.

Take Milner for instance - he's a backup player, and at his age shouldn't be starting back to back to back games, but with Henderson, Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Shaqiri and Thiago all injured, and Fabinho forced to play at centreback because of all the injuries there, it means Millie is being overplayed - which resulted in him getting injured today.

Sam Hain

Wow, just after watching Klopps post match interview. Fair play to BT sports Des Kelly for not entertaining his childish tantrum. Embarrassing stuff From Klopp. Wilder even got some. Crazy.

Cookiemunster

CSF wrote: »

I don't think 'clear pen' applies here. Definitely more than 50% pen considering he does clumsily make contact, but its on the soft side by Premier League refereeing standards.


I don't think the referee would have been heavily inclined to give it even if he'd had a clear view of it in real time (which he might well have done).


Anything that requires a slowmo to spot, probably isn't a 'clear pen' for me.

You see that given as a foul around the field all the time. If it's a foul outside the box, then it's a pen inside the box. Whether it's 'soft' or not is irrelevant.

And the laws of the game are black and white. It doesn't matter if a slow mo is needed to see a foul. If its a foul, its a foul.

All_in_Flynn

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I think it's happening with everyone really... we saw it with Brighton this morning. Think it's more down to the lack of pre-season for everyone, plus the crazy fixture congestion. Lots of injuries, meaning certain players have to be played even more, meaning they're then more susceptible to injuries themselves - vicious cycle.

Take Milner for instance - he's a backup player, and at his age shouldn't be starting back to back to back games, but with Henderson, Keita, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Shaqiri and Thiago all injured, and Fabinho forced to play at centreback because of all the injuries there, it means Millie is being overplayed - which resulted in him getting injured today.

Ye I just mean that it seems that Liverpool seems to be suffering more that most teams at the moment. Not all muscle injuries I know but I do wonder is it the level they were playing at having an effect on them now.

Mr.Nice Guy

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Why would you think I was even thinking they were so far above the rest if I was only talking about pretty much half their first team? Of course not. What are you looking for here?

Do I think they win the league even with their current squad status? Yes not by as much but think they still win it. Until they start losing at Anfield that opinion won't change.

I'm going by your own words last week here:

Liverpool look superior to everyone by a good distance is that more precise?

They made Leicester look like nobodies and they didn't even have 3-4 of their best players

Last week you actually cited one of the reasons for Liverpool's greatness being their ability to make Leicester look like nobodies despite their injury toll. Now you've changed your tune to try and make out that you were only calling them great based on the idea that they have a full squad available. Don't pretend this isn't a massive flip-flop. What do I want? Honesty.

~Rebel~ wrote:

Of course they're not. That seems like a kind of pointless discussion though doesn't it? Like, the status has literally changed several times since this was first brought up a week ago with Keita injured during the last league game, Milner now injured today, Shaqiri injured in training, and Matip out of the squad today.

And yet I notice you thanked his post above where he made the above claims I quoted. Are you saying they were head and shoulders above the rest after the Leicester game, but it only changed in the last week?

Carcharodon

I know this is a bit of a cliched take but Klopps interview was a little bit infuriating.
How about the millions of people losing their jobs, how about the millions of people working 2 jobs just to make ends meat and these very people are literally paying these players highly inflated wages, so just suck it up a little bit and stop the whining.
I totally get the nuance of the situation but deal with it

DM_7

dfx- wrote: »

VAR can't judge intent by looking at it, so the law was mangled to what we have now to suit it making a decision. Not to suit the referee, but to suit the technology.

In the past you could get a fussy ref for 90 minutes, a blind ref, a strict ref, a lenient ref, but at least you didn't get two refs and only for 'key' incidents.

Pundits, commentaries, radio phone-ins and coaches have brought this on themselves.

Intent is clear I think. The defender is pulling on the ball to clear it. Welbeck gets there first.

Both players are playing the game trying to advantage their side. Robertson had the option of not pulling on it and trying to contain instead. Ultimately he did not get there first with the action he chose.

Much like offside the tech can show what happened. The fact the ref could not see it in real time does not change what happened.

If the referee gets a chance to see it again and establish in his view if Robertson kicked Welbeck and that it was careless, reckless or using excessive force then it is a benefit to the game.

Shanotheslayer

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm going by your own words last week here:



Last week you actually cited one of the reasons for Liverpool's greatness being their ability to make Leicester look like nobodies despite their injury toll. Now you've changed your tune to try and make out that you were only calling them great based on the idea that they have a full squad available. Don't pretend this isn't a massive flip-flop. What do I want? Honesty.



And yet I notice you thanked his post above where he made the above claims I quoted. Are you saying they were head and shoulders above the rest after the Leicester game, but it only changed in the last week?

Yes I changed the wording for you to be more precise. I have been acknowledging all of your points so why don't you start acknowledging mine.

Why are you constantly pushing this? What are you looking to achieve?

Yes one of the reasons I think Liverpool are superior to the rest is that given their injury toll they made Leicester look like nobodies. Is that to be expected every week? No absolutely not. There are a multitude of reasons as to why I think Liverpool are superior. I literally listed just one.

Would Liverpool's half first team win head and shoulders above every week? No. Would their first team win most games every week? Yes with ease imo which is why I think they are head and shoulders above the rest. Even one or two rotator's and I think they are well ahead. But given the extent of their current Injury list not so much.


I still don't see how a team beating Leicester and drawing to Brighton with a half 1st team squad makes my opinion invalid that they are superior than the other clubs currently.

At what point are you going to get over this?

jayo26

Sam Hain wrote: »

Wow, just after watching Klopps post match interview. Fair play to BT sports Des Kelly for not entertaining his childish tantrum. Embarrassing stuff From Klopp. Wilder even got some. Crazy.

I didnt see it i was too busy laughing.... What happened?

Shanotheslayer

3-0 Mendy

Great goal