General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

PhlegmyMoses

TheadoreT wrote: »

They were in a Champions league final and finished higher than United in 3 of the last 5 years and higher this year. It's not knee jerk in the slightest that they're a fair bit better.

Statements like "easily have a better squad" and a "fair bit better" are way too much. Players like Dier, Sanchez, Aurier, Sissoko, Lloris even Hojberg for Southampton, were nit lighting up the league the last 12-18 months. They got a much loved manager sacked, they were so poor. During that phase nobody was lauding this squad as easily better than Uniteds current squad and putting players like Dier over Maguire, Aurier over AWB, Loris over De Gea etc. Rashford and Son is far closer than is being made out here also. Basically, Spurs may have the better squad and first XI, but there is a heap of hyperbole going on as usual, and its far closer than you are making out.

TheadoreT

Your Rashford and Son analysis is spectacularly bad and renders your entire judgement as flawed.

Trouser Snake

adox wrote: »

AWB plays RB not LB!

On current form, Aurier keeps him on the bench.

PhlegmyMoses

TheadoreT wrote: »

Your Rashford and Son analysis is spectacularly bad and renders your entire judgement as flawed.

And yet, the previous two seasons to this, Rashfords goal and assist output outstrips Sons! Mad considering he was in a far weaker team and squad. You're going to have to pick one here.

Rashford is an incredibly good footballer and second name on the teamsheet at United. Son is also an excellent footballer and Spurs fans are right to love him. I would love to have him at United. I wouldnt replace Rashford for him tho.

adox

Trouser Snake wrote: »

On current form, Aurier keeps him on the bench.

Eh ok.

TitianGerm

TheadoreT wrote: »

Your Rashford and Son analysis is spectacularly bad and renders your entire judgement as flawed.

I just looked up the stats there and they're not miles apart. Rashford is 5 years younger than Son and has played 19 less PL games but has scored 16 less goals and has 7 less assists. Both first played in the PL in 15/16 season.

PhlegmyMoses

Its a great example of the hyperbole that goes on when these comparisons start up. Making out like the other guy is a clogger and your guy is Messi reincarnate
Rashford and Son are pretty close. To be clear that I'm not being one eyed, United don't have a striker in the same universe as Kane, for example.

yourdeadwright

Kiith wrote: »

Yeah sorry, i just don't see how United have a better squad then Spurs. Maybe on paper, but clearly not on form.


Sorry, but i'd have Dier on current form over Maguire all day long. And Toby is far better then both. Also Lloris.

AWB and Bruno for sure, but i'd still be picking Son over Rashford.

Spurs lads are playing well in the system Jose has them currently doing but most the United players are better than there counter parts they just have an awful manger

Kane, Son, Reguilon are the only Spurs players who get into a combined 11 and possibly Hojberg,

Lets not take 10 games over what we have seen from them all before

Liam O

TheadoreT wrote: »

They were in a Champions league final and finished higher than United in 3 of the last 5 years and higher this year. It's not knee jerk in the slightest that they're a fair bit better.

They didn't finish above United in the most recent season (barely finished 7th right) and are currently 5 points ahead having played a game more while United have had CL games against the best team in France and the 2nd best in Germany. I don't think there's much between them but Spurs were able to upgrade their supporting cast this Summer whereas United need another main piece.

PsychoPete

A bit of tough decision there, I thought contact was definitely outside the box. Assume it was a penalty because it continued into the box?

Corholio

That penalty looks very harsh. Nudge by March looks outside and it's very difficult to say for certain anyway. 3 minutes of looking at it shows that. Loads of free kicks are given outside even if it 'continues' inside the box. Not great by VAR, ref doesn't even look at it either.

Excellent VAR call.

Foul carried on into the box and penalty given, that's as good a use of the process as I've seen.

Corholio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Excellent VAR call.

Foul carried on into the box and penalty given, that's as good a use of the process as I've seen.

Loads of fouls 'carry on' and aren't given, it can't be random every time. 3 minutes of looking at it isn't clear and obvious either as ref gave a free kick. Going against it's own directives. A lot of the time it's not the decisions as much, but it's random use.

Cypher_sounds

PsychoPete wrote: »

A bit of tough decision there, I thought contact was definitely outside the box. Assume it was a penalty because it continued into the box?

Initial contact was made outside the box but is making contact with a player not allowed? No it is. However the foul was done inside the box.

Cypher_sounds

Corholio wrote: »

That penalty looks very harsh. Nudge by March looks outside and it's very difficult to say for certain anyway. 3 minutes of looking at it shows that. Loads of free kicks are given outside even if it 'continues' inside the box. Not great by VAR, ref doesn't even look at it either.

The nudge was fine but he actually fouled him afterwards. Surely that’s obvious.

Corholio

Cypher_sounds wrote: »

The nudge was grand but he actually fouled home afterwards.

The 'foul' is pretty relative though, which millisecond does the foul occur etc?, on the VAR replays they were clearly looking at where the nudge happened.

DVDM93

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Good to Ings back on the bench for Southampton after that knee injury looked so bad.

& a goal on his return, great to see.

Corholio

Corholio wrote: »

Loads of fouls 'carry on' and aren't given, it can't be random every time. 3 minutes of looking at it isn't clear and obvious either as ref gave a free kick. Going against it's own directives. A lot of the time it's not the decisions as much, but it's random use.

Dont disagree with you on a lot of that, tbf

Kyle Walker Peters just contrived, at a goal up and three minutes to play, to try to take on three opponents and leave his team three on three on a break.

Jesus but I don't miss that guy one bit. Jose has a hard enough job teaching Aurier the basics, the two lads together might just have scuppered us.

Cypher_sounds

Corholio wrote: »

The 'foul' is pretty relative though, which millisecond does the foul occur etc?, on the VAR replays they were clearly looking at where the nudge happened.

I think that’s where that numpty commentator Alan Smith was crapping on about but the var guys obviously saw the foul happen in the box/on the line.

Fitz*

Corholio wrote: »

Loads of fouls 'carry on' and aren't given, it can't be random every time 3 minutes of looking at it isn't clear and obvious either as ref gave a free kick. Going against it's own directives. A lot of the time it's not the decisions as much, but it's random use.

I think that's the biggest gripe with VAR. Too much randomness and inconsistencies.

One game there is a tackle where the defender clearly wins the ball first and then a small follow through on the man after and it's deemed a foul. But the next game there is a stud of a boot barely touching the ball and doesn't deviate the path of the ball before fouling a player and it's deemed not a foul.

Brighton got a penalty last week via VAR intervening to find a foul in the box with a small follow through on a kick and Saturday night the exact same incident happened with Chelsea and Leeds and VAR chose not to intervene.

As you said, in previous games the ruling is 'the initial foul is outside the box so not a penalty' and then tonight it's 'foul carried though into the box'.

Too much inconsistencies. I think I could accept a lot more of these decisions given if they were consistently given in every game. The worst thing is that it's often the same referees who are changing their mind on the same incidents.

Corholio

Corholio wrote: »

The 'foul' is pretty relative though, which millisecond does the foul occur etc?, on the VAR replays they were clearly looking at where the nudge happened.

Would only say that a defender giving the ref or VAR the option to pick the last three seconds of a sustained foul as opposed to the first three seconds gets zero sympathy from me

Cypher_sounds

Cypher_sounds wrote: »

I think that’s where that numpty commentator Alan Smith was crapping on about but the var guys obviously saw the foul happen in the box/on the line.

The man shows his limitations- his co-commentator explained twice about "if the foul continues into the box" being the rule, and he still went on about "initial contact" for ten minutes.

Very poor standard of analysis from him tbh

Corholio

Cypher_sounds wrote: »

I think that’s where that numpty commentator Alan Smith was crapping on about but the var guys obviously saw the foul happen in the box/on the line.

I just don't think you can overrule the ref after looking at 20+ replays when a correction has to be clear and obvious, and the ref not even looking at the monitor. VAR seems to be stringent about some things of it's system and half assed about others.

Granted the delay was silly.

As soon as I saw it replayed once it was clear to me

Corholio

It's not that clear to me really. Why are some fouls given outside when contact starts outside and continues in, and some not? That one tonight looked nothing different of ones given 100 times outside.

Yeah youve said that but im not sure that "they often get that wrong" is a good case against getting something right, tbh

Agent Coulson

VAR being consistent in its inconsistency.

Cypher_sounds

Funny watching Carragher just say there that VAR has exposed some officials. Didn’t he get exposed by a video too.

Fitz*

citytillidie

Week 11 Highlights
Villa V Newcastle Postponed

Burnely V Everton

Man City V Fulham

West Ham V Man Utd

Chelsea V Leeds

WBA V Palace

Sheff Utd V Leicester

Spurs V Arsenal

Liverpool V Wolves

Brighton V Southampton

citytillidie

24 Spurs Liverpool
23
22 Chelsea
21 Leicester
20 Southampton
19 Man Utd
18 Man City
17 West Ham Everton Wolves
16 Palace
15 Villa
14 Newcastle Leeds
13 Arsenal
12
11
10 Brighton
9
8
7 Fulham
6 Burnley WBA
5
4
3
2
1 Sheff Utd

DVDM93

citytillidie wrote: »

24 Spurs Liverpool
23
22 Chelsea
21 Leicester
20 Southampton
19 Man Utd
18 Man City
17 West Ham Everton Wolves
16 Palace
15 Villa
14 Newcastle Leeds
13 Arsenal
12
11
10 Brighton
9
8
7 Fulham
6 Burnley WBA
5
4
3
2
1 Sheff Utd

Thank you citytillidie.

We appreciate your excellent work.

As a Liverpool supporter it's great to be joint top of the league with Spurs despite our never ending injury list, covid cases aplenty & more than a few questionable VAR decisions going against us, certainly a lot more compared to other teams.

Onwards & upwards from here.

YNWA.

DVDM93.

DVDM93

DVDM93 wrote: »

Do the referees themselves know the rules? Genuine question. It's all well & good establishing rules but it's no good if the people applying them can't do just that.

Let's take David Coote for example.

He was dropped from VAR duty in the Liverpool V Leicester game after his less than satisfactory performance in the Merseyside Derby.

He was then appointed referee for the Man United V West Brom game. If he wasn't deemed up to standard to be on VAR duty for the Liverpool V Leicester game then how is he seen as being up to the standard required for the United game?

Anyway, roll on said match & David Coote is once again the centre of controversy for West Brom's penalty & was deservedly lambasted after the game by none other than Manchester United Football Club's legend & current BT Sports pundit, Rio Ferdinand.

That's not all.

Previously Coote was dropped from Premier Leagie duty for the Lo Celso red card incident in the the Chelsea V Spurs game.

He was also at the centre of another controversial decision when he chose not to overturn a Kevin De Bruyne handball in the Leicester game.

I'm sure there are more.

So again I ask, do the officials themselves actually know the rules?

KDB was quoted after a game saying he doesn't know the rules anymore, so maybe the same applies to the likes of David Coote also.

Do we have officials that just aren't very good at their jobs or are the rules just too much for them to keep up with & too difficult to apply?

https://twitter.com/RealKevinPalmer/status/1336073407859994626?s=20

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

citytillidie wrote: »

24 Spurs Liverpool
23
22 Chelsea
21 Leicester
20 Southampton
19 Man Utd
18 Man City
17 West Ham Everton Wolves
16 Palace
15 Villa
14 Newcastle Leeds
13 Arsenal
12
11
10 Brighton
9
8
7 Fulham
6 Burnley WBA
5
4
3
2
1 Sheff Utd

If Sheff Utd don't start winning some points soon, this is going to be one very long table...

gimli2112

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If Sheff Utd don't start winning some points soon, this is going to be one very long table...

lucky it's not last year, our scroll buttons wouldn't make it

greenspurs

tom1ie wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

What United players would get into the spurs squad?

TitianGerm wrote: »

De Gea, AWB, Maguire, Fernandez would all start. Rashford would be close on the LW position.

If Pogba ever bothered his arse he'd probably get into most teams but his attitude is a joke.

the same players that were destroyed 1-6 a few weeks back ???? :rolleyes: wow ...

TitianGerm

greenspurs wrote: »

the same players that were destroyed 1-6 a few weeks back ???? :rolleyes: wow ...

Yep. No good based off one game. Useless they are.

Whereas Aurier is Cafu incarnate. I'm not sure how anyone can argue he is a better player than AWB looking at both their times in the PL.

tom1ie

TitianGerm wrote: »

De Gea is a better keeper than Loris. Mcguire is also a better CB than Dier. He's not worth £80m but that doesn't mean he's not better.

You could play Rashford, Kane and Son up top.

Ah now stop. McGuire is not a better CB than dier, that’s just messing.
Lloris and de gea- there’s nothing in it at the moment, both capable of outstanding saves and distribution both capable of howlers.
Rashford wouldn’t get in to the spurs team ahead of Kane or son.
AWB is probably the only one but on aurier current form (never thought I’d be saying that by the way) aurier starts.

Sorry forgot about Fernandez, but who do you drop for him?

gimli2112

We used to do these combined XI's with the Utd lads. It never worked out. Couldn't get them to see sense

yourdeadwright

gimli2112 wrote: »

We used to do these combined XI's with the Utd lads. It never worked out. Couldn't get them to see sense

Ye some people find it impossible to be objective ,Sure when the team of the season rolled around last summer some United fans had AWB in ahead of Trent like that head In the sand stuff

For the record I truly believe De Gea ,Maguire, Lindelöf ,Bruno Rashford are all get into the Spurs team as they are better players than there counter parts ,

yourdeadwright

greenspurs wrote: »

tom1ie wrote: »

the same players that were destroyed 1-6 a few weeks back ???? :rolleyes: wow ...

Wow is right such a simple childish view of football .They won because of tactics and how the teams are set up and what happened on the day,

Going by your logic Liverpool should sell there first 11 and buy Villa's after all they trashed them 7-2 so they must be far better players ,

greenspurs

yourdeadwright wrote: »

greenspurs wrote: »

Wow is right such a simple childish view of football .They won because of tactics and how the teams are set up and what happened on the day,

Going by your logic Liverpool should sell there first 11 and buy Villa's after all they trashed them 7-2 so they must be far better players ,

So Maguire, Shaw are class defenders in your opinion ??

Childish view? Why you so up tight ? Ok hon??

greenspurs

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Ye some people find it impossible to be objective ,Sure when the team of the season rolled around last summer some United fans had AWB in ahead of Trent like that head In the sand stuff

For the record I truly believe De Gea ,Maguire, Lindelöf ,Bruno Rashford are all get into the Spurs team as they are better players than there counter parts ,

Better than Dier and Toby ?? :D:D

Yeh right... Ha haaaaaaaa
Lindelof is not even a regular starter in a poor Utd defence !

TitianGerm

tom1ie wrote: »

Ah now stop. McGuire is not a better CB than dier, that’s just messing.
Lloris and de gea- there’s nothing in it at the moment, both capable of outstanding saves and distribution both capable of howlers.
Rashford wouldn’t get in to the spurs team ahead of Kane or son.
AWB is probably the only one but on aurier current form (never thought I’d be saying that by the way) aurier starts.

Sorry forgot about Fernandez, but who do you drop for him?

If I was picking a combined team it'd be

De Gea
AWB, Toby, McGuire, Regilion
Ndombele, Fernandez, Le Celso
Son, Kane, Rashford

The only problem there is the team would be over run in midfield so to add a bit of balance I'd drop Le Celso out and add Hoijberg in.

yourdeadwright

greenspurs wrote: »

Better than Dier and Toby ?? :D:D

Yeh right... Ha haaaaaaaa
Lindelof is not even a regular starter in a poor Utd defence !

Why do you think Jose has Spurs playing so deep with almost 6 at the back ?

Is it because he has super CB's or is it because he is trying to protect his CB's ?

yourdeadwright

TitianGerm wrote: »

If I was picking a combined team it'd be

De Gea
AWB, Toby, McGuire, Regilion
Ndombele, Fernandez, Le Celso
Son, Kane, Rashford

The only problem there is the team would be over run in midfield so to add a bit of balance I'd drop Le Celso out and add Hoijberg in.

That's a fair team ,

I would say there is absolutely nothing between Hoijberg, Ndombele, Le Celso or Fred, McTominay , Pogba ,Matic

TitianGerm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

That's a fair team ,

I would say there is absolutely nothing between Hoijberg, Ndombele, Le Celso or Fred, McTominay , Pogba ,Matic

Pogba is the best player in either midfield but he's the worst attitude and application I've seen in a long time so I didn't include him.

Ndombele is going to be world class. McTominay or Fred shouldn't be mentioned in relation to either Ndombele or Le Celso, they are limited footballers.

Fitz*

greenspurs wrote: »

Better than Dier and Toby ?? :D:D

Yeh right... Ha haaaaaaaa
Lindelof is not even a regular starter in a poor Utd defence !

Lindelof has started both more PL & more European games for Utd than Alderweireld has for Spurs and Spurs have played a game extra. Alderweireld was left on the bench for 3 league games this season so far. Lindelof 1. So by that logic, Lindelof is more of a regular than Alderwireld is.

Spurs have played a game extra than Utd so there has been more opportunities for both Dier & Alderweireld to start more but yet none of them are playing more regularly than Lindelof. So to say Lindelof is not even a regular is completely false.

PhlegmyMoses

tom1ie wrote: »

Ah now stop. McGuire is not a better CB than dier, that’s just messing.
Lloris and de gea- there’s nothing in it at the moment, both capable of outstanding saves and distribution both capable of howlers.
Rashford wouldn’t get in to the spurs team ahead of Kane or son.
AWB is probably the only one but on aurier current form (never thought I’d be saying that by the way) aurier starts.

Sorry forgot about Fernandez, but who do you drop for him?

I would be doing the exact same thing that you are doing here but flipped for the United squad. Plonk Eric Dier into the current United defence instead of Maguire and I dont think that he performs as well as he is in the Spurs system. It's horses for courses.

I wouldnt change DDG for Lloris, Alderweireld for Lindelof, Aurier for AWB, even Hojberg or Sissokho for Fred/VDB/McTominay right now. Reguilon for Shaw, sure. But Telles has looked good and I'm not overly unhappy with United left side. Rashford and Son, I personally wouldn't want to lose Rashford as I think hes that good even though I super rate Son. It's all far closer than peiple are making out and most of the positions are just toss ups. Spurs have a clearer system and gameplan currently though, which is helping the Spurs players cause.

tom1ie

yourdeadwright wrote: »

greenspurs wrote: »

Wow is right such a simple childish view of football .They won because of tactics and how the teams are set up and what happened on the day,

Going by your logic Liverpool should sell there first 11 and buy Villa's after all they trashed them 7-2 so they must be far better players ,

I actually didn’t post that. Don’t know how that’s under my name.
But yeah McGuire is a poor player.