General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

DVDM93

Is this not a discussion on a combined XI of the current Spurs-United teams?

How is how good Rashford MIGHT be relevant?

Also, let's just say for argument's sake he does become better than Son when he is of the same age as they are now, who is to say he will still be playing for United? So you can't even put a 28 year old Rashford in a combined Spurs/United XI because he might not even be there come the time.

You can see how predicting what might happen 4 or 5 years down the line is largely irrelevant to this discussion.

No offence meant to United there either, but if United stay going as they are (for the record I don't think they will, I believe in Ole, but it's a possibility none the less) and Rashford fulfils his potential, then he'll be too good for them & would deserve a better club.

On current form, Son is better than Rashford.

TheadoreT

Son and in particular Kane are smarter players for sure and both more likely to go deeper in their careers than Rashford imo. Rashford faster than both but those players often burn brighter when young and any mounting injuries over their careers tend to minimize their biggest threat.

Kane shouldnt even be in this conversation, hes among the very best in the world right now. Flawless forward.

RasTa

TheadoreT wrote: »

Son and in particular Kane are smarter players for sure and both more likely to go deeper in their careers than Rashford imo. Rashford faster than both but those players often burn brighter when young and any mounting injuries over their careers tend to minimize their biggest threat.

Kane shouldnt even be in this conversation, hes among the very best in the world right now. Flawless forward.

I do laugh at the best player in the world's honours list.

Honours

Tottenham Hotspur

Football League Cup runner-up: 2014–15[75]
UEFA Champions League runner-up: 2018–19[277]

Maybe he's just loyal. Hardly a stick to beat him with.

I'm sure he's had plenty of offers, but maybe none were as good as where he is now.

Fitz*

RasTa wrote: »

I do laugh at the best player in the world's honours list.

Honours

Tottenham Hotspur

Football League Cup runner-up: 2014–15[75]
UEFA Champions League runner-up: 2018–19[277]

Why are you using team honours to measure and compare individual players?

Kane has won PL POTM 6 times. Rashford has 1.
Kane has been chosen in PL TOTY 4 times, Rashford has 0.
Kane also won PL YPOTY 1 time. Rashford has not.

RasTa

Fitz* wrote: »

Why are you using team honours to measure and compare individual players?

Kane has won PL POTM 6 times. Rashford has 1.
Kane has been chosen in PL TOTY 4 times, Rashford has 0.
Kane also won PL YPOTY 1 time. Rashford has not.

lol. I'm not even comparing those two players, you can't label Kane world class with zero medals around his neck.

Look at Ronaldo, now that's world class.

8-10

RasTa wrote: »

lol. I'm not even comparing those two players, you can't label Kane world class with zero medals around his neck.

Of course you can! Team medals aren't a requirement for a player being world class

Kiith

I think the idea that a player can't be world class without winning a major trophy is laughable tbh.

RasTa

Name another world class player with zero medals.

Wuff Wuff

Kiith wrote: »

I think the idea that a player can't be world class without winning a major trophy is laughable tbh.

indeed and by that logic

Kingsley Coman has won the league every season hes played as a professional, he must be the best footballer of all time.

Kiith

Giuseppe Signori. And yes i googled that :pac:

Just because it doesn't happen often (ever), doesn't mean you're right. A player can be a fantastic player, and stay at a club for various reason, and that club may still not win anything. If Spurs in the league this year, does Kane instantly become a world class player?

8-10

RasTa wrote: »

Name another world class player with zero medals.

Zero of any kind or zero of any note?

There's a few players who have only won medals in lower tier leagues that would be in the conversation. I don't see much of a difference between not winning anything for a top 6 PL club v winning a random cup in a lower league

e.g. the likes of Erik Haaland, Ciro Immobile, Bruno Fernandes, Jadon Sancho are all among the best in their positions right now without ever winning anything of note.

Romelu Lukaku isn't someone I'd describe as world class but his lack of medals doesn't reflect on him being not up to scratch at the top level

GLaDOS

I would have said Salah was World class after his first season at Liverpool. At that point he'd only won a Swiss league title.

RasTa

Kiith wrote: »

Giuseppe Signori. And yes i googled that :pac:

Just because it doesn't happen often (ever), doesn't mean you're right. A player can be a fantastic player, and stay at a club for various reason, and that club may still not win anything. If Spurs in the league this year, does Kane instantly become a world class player?

Nope, unless you also think Vardy is world class too.

World class is an elite player, top of their game throughout their whole career. It's branded about to easy these days.

Ronaldo, Messi are the only 2 atm. You can't be including Kane in the same bracket at them.

Talisman

RasTa wrote: »

Nope, unless you also think Vardy is world class too.

World class is an elite player, top of their game throughout their whole career. It's branded about to easy these days.

Ronaldo, Messi are the only 2 atm. You can't be including Kane in the same bracket at them.

Fantasy stuff.

gimli2112

Unless you're counting the Copa del Rey the first tournament of any note that Maradona won was the World Cup.

Bridge93

Kane hasn't scored less than 17 premier league goals in a season since he was 20. The 17 were in a season where he missed a good chunk of games due to injury. He's now added assists to his game and his helping out in his own box. Obviously everyone's definition of world class is different. But to me he's world class

rob316

RasTa wrote: »

Name another world class player with zero medals.

That is a ridiculous barometer of a world class player. Gerrard won a CL and no league titles, if he didnt win the CL you wouldn't call him world class? Shearer won a solitary premier league medal, regarded as one of the finest strikers England has ever produced.

JPA

Quazzie wrote: »

Rashford is better than Kane was at the age Rashford is now.

The same goes for Son.

If Rashford progresses at the same rate as both Kane and Son, then he will be a better player than both.

That's obviously a big IF though.

Harry Kane scored 25 goals in the league when he was 22. Rashford has a way to go to get near Kane's consistency.

Liam O

How has this gone from comparing Son and Rashford to Kane and Rashford?

RasTa

rob316 wrote: »

That is a ridiculous barometer of a world class player. Gerrard won a CL and no league titles, if he didnt win the CL you wouldn't call him world class? Shearer won a solitary premier league medal, regarded as one of the finest strikers England has ever produced.

So are Vardy, Cole, Yorke, OGS, Scholes, Lampard etc all world class players then if Kane is suddenly one?

Might aswell add Defoe and Les Ferdinand in there too.

Must be some amount of world class players on your list.

TitianGerm

RasTa wrote: »

World class is an elite player, top of their game throughout their whole career.

If that's the case there'd be no world class players.

When Ronaldo first came to United he wasn't at the top of his game and there were better players in the world than him in his position.

If you can rule Ronaldo out then there's probably no World Class players.

Shanotheslayer

World class is subjective. Just end the conversation.

The way Rasta described World Class there is no such thing as WC player ever

RasTa

RasTa wrote: »

So are Vardy, Cole, Yorke, OGS, Scholes, Lampard etc all world class players then if Kane is suddenly one?

Might aswell add Defoe and Les Ferdinand in there too.

Must be some amount of world class players on your list.

There are 457 on my list. I'm pretty sure I saw a rule written down once that you can only have 32.

DeanAustin

RasTa wrote: »

So are Vardy, Cole, Yorke, OGS, Scholes, Lampard etc all world class players then if Kane is suddenly one?

Might aswell add Defoe and Les Ferdinand in there too.

Must be some amount of world class players on your list.

If you think Scholes and Lampard weren't world class players, I give up.

There isn't a club on the planet that wouldn't take Kane in a heartbeat. There isn't a team he wouldn't get into. He's world class.

Agent Coulson

I see a number of ex pro's are calling out Kane now for his backing in and saying he should be getting red cards for it before he seriously hurts someone.

RasTa

DeanAustin wrote: »

If you think Scholes and Lampard weren't world class players, I give up.

There isn't a club on the planet that wouldn't take Kane in a heartbeat. There isn't a team he wouldn't get into. He's world class.

So is Jamie Vardy then, when does it end?

bucketybuck

RasTa wrote: »

Cole, Yorke, OGS, Scholes, Lampard etc all world class players then

League and Champions league winners one and all, so they must be world class, isn't that how it works?

Or do medals only count if the player doesn't have them?

RasTa

bucketybuck wrote: »

League and Champions league winners one and all, so they must be world class, isn't that how it works?

Or do medals only count if the player doesn't have them?

Look at Kane's record against the top 6. Is that the record of a world class player?

I'm guessing you consider Lukaku world class as well?

DeanAustin

RasTa wrote: »

So is Jamie Vardy then, when does it end?

I don't believe Vardy is. Would he get into any team in the Premier League let alone in the world?

Kane's scoring record is also better than Vardy's at club and international level and if you watch football, you'll see Kane contributes far more than Vardy in a game.

Vardy's a very good player though.

Talisman

DeanAustin wrote: »

There isn't a club on the planet that wouldn't take Kane in a heartbeat. There isn't a team he wouldn't get into. He's world class.

He might make the Liverpool team this season if he can play centre half, but he doesn't offer enough to be considered for a starting place in the front three.

Mr.Nice Guy

RasTa wrote: »

Look at Kane's record against the top 6. Is that the record of a world class player?

I'm guessing you consider Lukaku world class as well?

Lukaku is easily world class. A world class player is one that walks into pretty much every team in the world.

You are conflating the definition with generational or GOAT players who would get into pretty much every team over different eras.

Talisman wrote:

He might make the Liverpool team this season if he can play centre half, but he doesn't offer enough to be considered for a starting place in the front three.

Utterly delusional. He offers goals for one thing, which is something Firmino tends to struggle with.

RasTa

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Lukaku is easily world class. A world class player is one that walks into pretty much every team in the world.

You are conflating the definition with generational or GOAT players who would get into pretty much every team over different eras.

At least you admit it, It'll be interesting if many of the other posters who label Kane world class would do the same for Lukaku

Iused2likebusts

What is kanes record against the top 6. I'd imagine it's decent.

DeanAustin

Talisman wrote: »

He might make the Liverpool team this season if he can play centre half, but he doesn't offer enough to be considered for a starting place in the front three.

Behave. He'd walk in ahead of any of the front 3/4 especially Firmino or Jota. He'd certainly walk into the midfield ahead of Henderson, Keita, Milner or Wijnaldum. He'd make a better centre back than any of the Liverpool ones bar VVD.

He's probably only good enough to be third choice keeper after Allisson and Kelleher though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuFeZPlFrGM

DeanAustin

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

What is kanes record against the top 6. I'd imagine it's decent.

v Chelsea - 6 goals and 2 assists in 14 games
v Liverpool - 6 goals and 2 assists in 11 games
v City - 2 goals and 3 assists in 10 games
v Arsenal - 11 goals and 3 assists in 13 games
v United - 4 goals and 2 assists in 13 games

So he's scored (29) or assisted (12) 41 goals in 51 games.

Iused2likebusts

DeanAustin wrote: »

v Chelsea - 6 goals and 2 assists in 14 games
v Liverpool - 6 goals and 2 assists in 11 games
v City - 2 goals and 3 assists in 10 games
v Arsenal - 11 goals and 3 assists in 13 games
v United - 4 goals and 2 assists in 13 games

So he's scored (29) or assisted (12) 41 goals in 51 games.

That's a good record against the top 6 better than most Id imagine. How does it compare with aguero , van Persie and Rooney I wonder.

gimli2112

six goals in 23 games against the manchester clubs doesn't look great, he had at least two penalties against us, obviously fills his boots against the lesser sides

his record stands up to scrutiny, he's been consistently scoring goals for years

RasTa

Remove Arsenal from that list.

He's scored 18 goals in 48 games against the big clubs. IF you're calling him world class then you're saying the same for Lukaku

TheadoreT

Imagine not having the football brain to recognise or appreciate players such as Kane's world class ability, must make watching football boring.

bucketybuck

RasTa wrote: »

Look at Kane's record against the top 6. Is that the record of a world class player?

I'm guessing you consider Lukaku world class as well?

If those goalposts don't stop moving not even Kane will be able to hit them.

RasTa

bucketybuck wrote: »

If those goalposts don't stop moving not even Kane will be able to hit them.

I know. Someone even posted up how many POTM awards he won

DeanAustin

RasTa wrote: »

Remove Arsenal from that list.

He's scored 18 goals in 48 games against the big clubs. IF you're calling him world class then you're saying the same for Lukaku

Haha you're moving the goalposts all over the place and you're judging stuff purely on stats.

There was a stat a few years ago that Spurs were better without Kane than with him. And, over the period of games people spoke about, Spurs got better results without Kane than they did with him. But only an idiot would seriously say that Spurs are a better team without Harry Kane.

If you only judge players and teams on stats, you never need to watch a game of football. While everyone is entitled to their opinion, there are very few that watch football who would claim that Kane is not currently world class.

Can you be a world class manager with no trophies? Probably not.

DeanAustin

RasTa wrote: »

Remove Arsenal from that list.

He's scored 18 goals in 48 games against the big clubs. IF you're calling him world class then you're saying the same for Lukaku

By the way, it's 18 in 38 which is still almost 1 in 2. Plus 9 assists.

Edit: And on Lukaku who I actually think is a very good player, he has 72 appearances against the top 6 with 20 goals and 12 assists so his record in that regard is considerably worse than Kane. But, as I say, stats don't prove much in isolation.

If Kane doesn't win major trophies this season he probably needs to move tbf.

Nunu

Back in the 90s I prayed Utd would land Shearer. If they had of I think they’d have won a European Cup or two before 1999.

It’s the same with Kane. Praying for the bid the last few seasons.

He’s the best striker in the league and is clearly world class.

Wuff Wuff

If Kane moved to United in January the goalposts would shift again and he would be considered world class

yourdeadwright

Iv said this for a while but i think Kane will replace Sergio at City

tom1ie

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Kane is a central striker. Rashford isn't. What are they even being compared?

Kane is a world class striker, incredible centre mid and quality centre back.
Word is he’s putting in extra work in training between the sticks.