General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

JPA

Fitz* wrote: »

Alisson, Matip, Thiago, Mane were all missing that day through injury. Tsimikas, Ox, Shaqiri also missing from the squad through injury.

It was not just Mane.

If people wan to keep referencing that one game where Adrian threw one in the net, along with about 4 wicked deflections as a sort of level for what the Liverpool team can do....well then whatever makes you happy.

Adrián
Alexander-Arnold
Gomez
van Dijk
Robertson
Keita
Fabinho
Wijnaldum
Salah
Firmino
Jota

This ragtag band of misfits did well to keep it to 7.

Bridge93

9 month driving ban and £82k fine for Grealish. Might keep his head down now.

8-10

JPA wrote: »

Adrián
Alexander-Arnold
Gomez
van Dijk
Robertson
Keita
Fabinho
Wijnaldum
Salah
Firmino
Jota

This ragtag band of misfits did well to keep it to 7.

You had me at Adrián

DeanAustin

Fitz* wrote: »

Alisson, Matip, Thiago, Mane were all missing that day through injury. Tsimikas, Ox, Shaqiri also missing from the squad through injury.

It was not just Mane.

If people wan to keep referencing that one game where Adrian threw one in the net, along with about 4 wicked deflections as a sort of level for what the Liverpool team can do....well then whatever makes you happy.

Sorry I’ll give you Allison as well. But him and Mane aside, that was Liverpool’s strongest team pretty much.

Just pointing out that for all the injuries Liverpool have had, their only catastrophic result was with something bordering a first choice team. So comments like “they’d be 7 or 8 points clear if they didn’t have any injuries” is nonsense.

DeanAustin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And the threadbare remnants of that team are now JOINT TOP with Spurs. Shows the quality of Liverpool. I wonder what would happen if Kane or Son got injured...:pac:

I’m sure you’ll find out at some stage. You seem to be buying the cliche that Spurs are a two man team so it’ll be interesting to see if there’s any truth in it.

Wasn’t so long ago I had a pain in my hole reading here and elsewhere that Spurs were a better team without Kane.

y0ssar1an22

jose stirring things up before the top of the table clash tomorrow evening :pac:

davycc

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

jose stirring things up before the top of the table clash tomorrow evening :pac:

Good man Jose

Agent Coulson

Every game in January bar Brighton vs Spurs will be live on TV.

Friday 1 January

17:30 Everton v West Ham (BT Sport)

20:00 Man Utd v Aston Villa (Sky Sports)

Saturday 2 January

12:30 Spurs v Leeds (BT Sport)

15:00 Crystal Palace v Sheff Utd (Sky Sports)

17:30 Brighton v Wolves (Sky Sports)

20:00 West Brom v Arsenal (BT Sport)

Sunday 3 January

12:00 Burnley v Fulham (Sky Sports)

14:15 Newcastle v Leicester (Sky Sports)

16:30 Chelsea v Man City (Sky Sports)

Monday 4 January

20:00 Southampton v Liverpool (Sky Sports)

Tuesday 12 January

18:00 Sheff Utd v Newcastle (Sky Sports)

20:15 Wolves v Everton (Sky Sports)

Wednesday 13 January

18:00 Man City v Brighton (BT Sport)

20:15 Aston Villa v Spurs (Sky Sports)

Thursday 14 January

20:00 Arsenal v Crystal Palace (Sky Sports)

Friday 15 January

20:00 Fulham v Chelsea (Sky Sports)

Saturday 16 January

12:30 Wolves v West Brom (BT Sport)

15:00 Leeds v Brighton (Sky Sports)

15:00 West Ham v Burnley (Amazon Prime)

17:30 Aston Villa v Everton (Sky Sports)

20:00 Leicester v Southampton (BT Sport)

Sunday 17 January

14:00 Sheff Utd v Spurs (Sky Sports)

16:30 Liverpool v Man Utd (Sky Sports)

19:15 Man City v Crystal Palace (Sky Sports)

Monday 18 January

20:00 Arsenal v Newcastle (Sky Sports)

Tuesday 19 January

18:00 West Ham v West Brom (BT Sport)

20:15 Leicester v Chelsea (Sky Sports)

Wednesday 20 January

18:00 Leeds v Southampton (Sky Sports)

20:15 Fulham v Man Utd (BT Sport)

Thursday 21 January

20:00 Liverpool v Burnley (Sky Sports)

Tuesday 26 January

18:00 Brighton v Fulham (BT Sport)

18:00 Newcastle v Leeds (BT Sport)

20:15 Southampton v Arsenal (BT Sport)

20:15 West Brom v Man City (BT Sport)

Wednesday 27 January

18:00 Burnley v Aston Villa (BT Sport)

18:00 Chelsea v Wolves (BT Sport)

19:30 Crystal Palace v West Ham (BT Sport)

20:15 Everton v Leicester City (BT Sport)

20:15 Man Utd v Sheff Utd (BT Sport)

Thursday 28 January

20:00 Spurs v Liverpool (BT Sport)

Saturday 30 January

12:30 Everton v Newcastle (BT Sport)

17:30 Arsenal v Man Utd (Sky Sports)

20:00 Southampton v Aston Villa (Sky Sports)

Sunday 31 January

14:00 Brighton v Spurs (moved due to Spurs playing on Thursday)

14:00 Leicester v Leeds (Sky Sports)

16:30 West Ham v Liverpool (Sky Sports)

https://theathletic.com/news/premier-league-tv-brighton-spurs-latest/Baz4SkHnFTwy

~Rebel~

DeanAustin wrote: »

Sorry I’ll give you Allison as well. But him and Mane aside, that was Liverpool’s strongest team pretty much.

Just pointing out that for all the injuries Liverpool have had, their only catastrophic result was with something bordering a first choice team. So comments like “they’d be 7 or 8 points clear if they didn’t have any injuries” is nonsense.

That's an awwwful lot to draw from one result. So because they lost one game badly where VVD was present, it means they wouldn't have faired any better with him, and Gomez, and Alisson, and Keita, and Thiago, and Ox etc etc all fit and available for other games? Probably not 7 or 8 points (though could argue 6 just from Fulham, Everton, and Brighton). To argue it doesn't make a difference is nuts given how some of those games panned out. And obviously over the longer term of the full season those losses are amplified.

Also just more generally, a catastrophic result is the wrong type of result to look at where missing players would have made a difference - its the closer games we've dropped points in that make you wonder.

Fitz*

DeanAustin wrote: »

Sorry I’ll give you Allison as well. But him and Mane aside, that was Liverpool’s strongest team pretty much.

Just pointing out that for all the injuries Liverpool have had, their only catastrophic result was with something bordering a first choice team. So comments like “they’d be 7 or 8 points clear if they didn’t have any injuries” is nonsense.

Yeah I'd agree that the Villa result is the only catastrophic result so far. There's been a couple other games where VAR decisions could have gone either way which turned draws into wins. The referee/VAR decisions in the derby definitely influenced the result. Personally the last minute penalty, or Mane's goal being ruled out at Brighton didn't bother me, but the VAR ruling out Salah's goal did annoy me. But that's in the past and they won't change, so there's no point in harping on about them now. Because of those draws, the perception of Liverpool's season has changed from being one who is winning games through the adversity of injuries and instead it is one that is being constantly referred to as the team who have lost their way from last season etc.


If you would like a more detailed report, I'm more than happy to share, but the number of first team players missing per game is pretty high. It's not just 1 or 2. That's a very blinded view to take on things, especially to just ignore the quality of Matip or Thiago - players who have started for the winning side in the previous two CL finals. It's an average of over 6 players missing per game. There is also a pretty strong trend of one player getting injured every time another player comes back from an injury. And these are not "u16" that Mourinho referred to today, it's actual high standard players That can start any given game in the PL.

Leeds 3
Chelsea 4
Arsenal 5
Aston Villa 7
Everton 6
Sheff Utd 6
West Ham 7
Man City 5
Leicester 8
Brighton 8
Wolves 7
Fulham 8

Largely, Liverpool have done well in the midst of a large injury crisis. Kept ploughing along, with some great results, and some poor but not the worst. That said, to me, it does look like the sheer number of injuries are starting to catch up with the players. Not being able to rotate heavily midweek for European games is taking a toll, because the players just are not available. The players who have been keeping fit are having to play more numbers. Gini & Hendo have to play midweek games because Thiago, Keita & Ox are injured etc. Also, you can't throw too many kids into games against the likes of Ajax & Atalanta, even though 2 or 3 teenagers regularly started those games, that's probably the limit.

Mourinho made a statement today naming out players who are not injured like Firmino, Salah, Mane. This was never the problem. It's always been the continual injuries in defence & midfield that are. I'm not sure if you are aware that for the Spurs game, Liverpool currently have 3 senior fit players who can play CB and CM - Fabinho, Gini, Hendo. Curtis Jones (19) is also available and is a first team player playing well but I don't think it is fair to call him a senior player. These players can't be rested tomorrow night, or at the weekend again either because of the importance of the game, but also because of unavailability of others in the same positions. Having those 4 players to rotate every other game for the 3 midfield spots would actually be very favourable right now. It would mean that usually one player would get a rest. Instead at least one of those has to play every other game at CB because there are no CBs. A 2nd one of those players may have to start tomorrow night at CB also, reducing the number of options in midfield. That's a lot of the crux right now with Liverpool are injuries. It's constantly at the bare bones of players available in defence and midfield, in every other game. For example Trent is just coming back into the team but it is also the same time that Matip is a big doubt and Tsmikas is injured again so the chance to rest Robertson is gone.

ERG89

Why is City vs West Brom on at 8pm & Wolves vs Chelsea at 6pm. Nobody wants to watch that game later unless you support City. Even West Brom fans will be behind the couch for it despite City's not exactly scintillating form.

Jose doing Liverpool's team talk for them. Works wonders

ERG89

ERG89 wrote: »

Why is City vs West Brom on at 8pm & Wolves vs Chelsea at 6pm. Nobody wants to watch that game later unless you support City. Even West Brom fans will be behind the couch for it despite City's not exactly scintillating form.

Be interested to see viewing figures for all games. Are figures steady or trending up or down I wonder?

fyfe79

DeanAustin wrote: »

Sorry I’ll give you Allison as well. But him and Mane aside, that was Liverpool’s strongest team pretty much.

Just pointing out that for all the injuries Liverpool have had, their only catastrophic result was with something bordering a first choice team. So comments like “they’d be 7 or 8 points clear if they didn’t have any injuries” is nonsense.

Well last season Liverpool had a similar catastrophic result, 0-3 vs relegated Watford, with a stronger side out than vs Villa this season. They won that season by a landslide, so there's not a whole lot to be taken from a rare heavy defeat. They happen.

tom1ie

~Rebel~ wrote: »

That's an awwwful lot to draw from one result. So because they lost one game badly where VVD was present, it means they wouldn't have faired any better with him, and Gomez, and Alisson, and Keita, and Thiago, and Ox etc etc all fit and available for other games? Probably not 7 or 8 points (though could argue 6 just from Fulham, Everton, and Brighton). To argue it doesn't make a difference is nuts given how some of those games panned out. And obviously over the longer term of the full season those losses are amplified.

Also just more generally, a catastrophic result is the wrong type of result to look at where missing players would have made a difference - its the closer games we've dropped points in that make you wonder.

Sure you could also say spurs got screwed against Newcastle with prob the worst var peno decision so far this year. That would put us two clear.
What about the atrocious injuries spurs had last year? That was the obvious reason we weren’t challenging for the title right ;-)

ERG89

Mendy should have kept that out imo. Wolves haven't been good since the second half started but its 1-1.
Adama Traore down after a flick from Giroud which caused his knee to jar.

Fitz*

Was Werner offside in the build up to this goal? Was it checked? Have seen lots of similar goals ruled out for offside when they are this close.

https://twitter.com/PremierSportsTV/status/1338925035529134080?s=19

~Rebel~

tom1ie wrote: »

Sure you could also say spurs got screwed against Newcastle with prob the worst var peno decision so far this year. That would put us two clear.
What about the atrocious injuries spurs had last year? That was the obvious reason we weren’t challenging for the title right ;-)

I'm not even getting into VAR, purely answering the chaps point that because Liverpool lost to Villa, then subsequent injuries perhaps affecting points won is "nonsense".

marklazarcovic

Fitz* wrote: »

Was Werner offside in the build up to this goal? Was it checked? Have seen lots of similar goals ruled out for offside when they are this close.

https://twitter.com/PremierSportsTV/status/1338925035529134080?s=19

Looks close,don't remember a review

PsychoPete

Fantastic come back from Wolves

Liamalone

Cracking strike that from Neto. 2-1 Wolves in injury injury time.

Lucas Hood

2 great goals by wolves.

ERG89

Wolves win it late through Neto

Osmosis Jones

Wolves get a penalty that then gets overturned because the ref watched the replay and saw the player diving....but then didn't book the diver. That's 2 games in 9 days where Wolves have had that happen, and because the ref isn't booking them they have absolutely no reason to stop trying.

Agent Coulson

What a goal by Neto to win it.

~Rebel~

Neto and Podence stepping up with Raul out.

wanderer100

Great second half from Wolves. Brilliant goals too

Chelsea look very unconvincing this season. Werner & Havertz are struggling massively

Osmosis Jones

Not sure how Chelsea fans are feeling but Kai Havertz hasn't shown anything yet imo

Agent Coulson

It took Pulisic months to settle in and now he is one of the best in the league and there were plenty writing him off as well after his first couple of months.


Havertz and Werner have played 3 months at Chelsea they will be huge for them over the next decade.

castletownman

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Not sure how Chelsea fans are feeling but Kai Havertz hasn't shown anything yet imo

I know he has been injured for a spell, but you just know if he was at United, and for the same outlay, in the exact same form, he'd already be deemed a flop.

Sam Hain

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Wolves get a penalty that then gets overturned because the ref watched the replay and saw the player diving....but then didn't book the diver. That's 2 games in 9 days where Wolves have had that happen, and because the ref isn't booking them they have absolutely no reason to stop trying.

Crazy that he wasn't booked, it was a blatant attempt to deceive the referee.

Sam Hain

castletownman wrote: »

I know he has been injured for a spell, but you just know if he was at United, and for the same outlay, in the exact same form, he'd already be deemed a flop.

What has Man United got to do with how a Chelsea player is performing. Totally irrelevant. Woe is us, everyone is picking on us, nonsense.

Agent Coulson

WBA should have scored there.

Not sure if the WBA red and yellow kit is an eyesore or if I actually like.

y0ssar1an22

Agent Coulson wrote: »

WBA should have scored there.

Not sure if the WBA red and yellow kit is an eyesore or if I actually like.

An eye sore.

Shudda scored there alright

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

fyfe79 wrote: »

Well last season Liverpool had a similar catastrophic result, 0-3 vs relegated Watford, with a stronger side out than vs Villa this season. They won that season by a landslide, so there's not a whole lot to be taken from a rare heavy defeat. They happen.

Everyone has a result like that every now and again. United lost 6-1 at home on the sme day. City lost 5-2 or something to Lesiceter.

I think Liverpool would be a few points clear if they'd had less inhuries, but more because of the draws rather than the Villa result. Everton and Brighton for a start.

fyfe79

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Everyone has a result like that every now and again. United lost 6-1 at home on the sme day. City lost 5-2 or something to Lesiceter.

I think Liverpool would be a few points clear if they'd had less inhuries, but more because of the draws rather than the Villa result. Everton and Brighton for a start.

Yeah, the Villa result was happening regardless. From what I remember of the Watford game, they got 3 good goals. This season, Villa were gifted the opener by the reserve keeper which set them nicely on their way. A few deflected goals later and the neutrals have their pants around their ankles. :eek:

tom1ie

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Everyone has a result like that every now and again. United lost 6-1 at home on the sme day. City lost 5-2 or something to Lesiceter.

I think Liverpool would be a few points clear if they'd had less inhuries, but more because of the draws rather than the Villa result. Everton and Brighton for a start.

Injuries are part and parcel of football, the same way crazy var decisions are now part and parcel.
Saying such a team would be a couple of points clear if it wasn’t for this injury or that var decision is a nonsense at this stage.
You just have to cope with it.
Yes I’m aware a couple of posts back I posted about the var decision vs spurs in that Newcastle game, but that was more to highlight the silliness of pointing to these things.

y0ssar1an22

tom1ie wrote: »

Injuries are part and parcel of football, the same way crazy var decisions are now part and parcel.
Saying such a team would be a couple of points clear if it wasn’t for this injury or that var decision is a nonsense at this stage.
You just have to cope with it.
Yes I’m aware a couple of posts back I posted about the var decision vs spurs in that Newcastle game, but that was more to highlight the silliness of pointing to these things.

It's the narrative. If liverpool win nothing it'll be because of the injuries.
If they do win stuff, it'll be liverpool are so good, look what they did even while 'riddled with injuries'. That's how I see it anyway

y0ssar1an22

Wba equalise on the stroke of ht

ERG89

City have been absolutely dire this half but should be ok, still this form is very hard to figure out. West Brom missed a great chance early on too.

Agent Coulson

Pep has a huge rebuilding job to do at City it could take hundreds of millions to get a new squad players that isn't worn out by him.


Pep also looks worn out himself and all his intensity is gone.

~Rebel~

wanderer100 wrote: »

Great second half from Wolves. Brilliant goals too

Chelsea look very unconvincing this season. Werner & Havertz are struggling massively

Havertz has been disappointing, but I think Werner has actually been pretty good. Runs his arse off and gets involved in plenty of good play. His versatility has hurt him a bit though... he's better driving into the middle, but they have other central options where they don't have other decent left wing options, so that's where he's put.

Even if they'd a different type of CF (like a Firmino type) he'd be more effective from wide, as that sort of player drops deepr and vacates space to allow for the run... but Tammy and Giroud are both box players, so there's no space for Werner to charge into from wide usually.

DeanAustin

~Rebel~ wrote: »

That's an awwwful lot to draw from one result. So because they lost one game badly where VVD was present, it means they wouldn't have faired any better with him, and Gomez, and Alisson, and Keita, and Thiago, and Ox etc etc all fit and available for other games? Probably not 7 or 8 points (though could argue 6 just from Fulham, Everton, and Brighton). To argue it doesn't make a difference is nuts given how some of those games panned out. And obviously over the longer term of the full season those losses are amplified.

Also just more generally, a catastrophic result is the wrong type of result to look at where missing players would have made a difference - its the closer games we've dropped points in that make you wonder.

What did I draw from that one result? All I’m saying is you can’t definitively say “if Liverpool had no injuries they would be 7 or 8 points clear”. Maybe they would. Maybe they wouldn’t. Maybe they’d have done worse than they’ve done. No one knows.

As for Jose, he was clearly on the wind up today. There’s a bit of truth in what he’s said but most of it is him manipulating the facts to suit his narrative. He could be doing it as much to make sure his own players stay focused as anything else. Or maybe he’s saying it for his own entertainment.

Rossi IRL

Anyone watching in UHD on Prime?

Anyone else have an issue with the picture every few seconds? Seems jumpy

~Rebel~

DeanAustin wrote: »

What did I draw from that one result? All I’m saying is you can’t definitively say “if Liverpool had no injuries they would be 7 or 8 points clear”. Maybe they would. Maybe they wouldn’t. Maybe they’d have done worse than they’ve done. No one knows.

As for Jose, he was clearly on the wind up today. There’s a bit of truth in what he’s said but most of it is him manipulating the facts to suit his narrative. He could be doing it as much to make sure his own players stay focused as anything else. Or maybe he’s saying it for his own entertainment.

You said;

"Just pointing out that for all the injuries Liverpool have had, their only catastrophic result was with something bordering a first choice team. So comments like “they’d be 7 or 8 points clear if they didn’t have any injuries” is nonsense."

Maybe I'm misreading, but that reads to me that you bring up the one catastrophic result, and then on the basis of that result draw the conclusion that them potentially doing better across all these other games without injuries is nonsense.

And of course you can't definitively say it... you can't definitively say anything when it comes to speculation. That's sort of implied in the conversation. But I wouldn't go so far as to call the assertion that Liverpool could have more points if they had less injuries as being nonsense. I'd argue the same is true of lots of teams across the league, particularly Man City and Sheffield Utd.

(the choice of 7 or 8 points that someone made was as a tangent to the conversation that was being had at the time about European leagues all being askew - PSG were 8 points clear at this stage last year, where now they're in 3rd)

niallo27

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Anyone watching in UHD on Prime?

Anyone else have an issue with the picture every few seconds? Seems jumpy

Ya and gets down now.

ERG89

Had that free went in Bilic would have made for Gundogan. Still around 10 minutes left but City despite having all the ball aren't making enough chances.

DeanAustin

~Rebel~ wrote: »

You said;

"Just pointing out that for all the injuries Liverpool have had, their only catastrophic result was with something bordering a first choice team. So comments like “they’d be 7 or 8 points clear if they didn’t have any injuries” is nonsense."

Maybe I'm misreading, but that reads to me that you bring up the one catastrophic result, and then on the basis of that result draw the conclusion that them potentially doing better across all these other games without injuries is nonsense.

And of course you can't definitively say it... you can't definitively say anything when it comes to speculation. That's sort of implied in the conversation. But I wouldn't go so far as to call the assertion that Liverpool could have more points if they had less injuries as being nonsense. I'd argue the same is true of lots of teams across the league, particularly Man City and Sheffield Utd.

(the choice of 7 or 8 points that someone made was as a tangent to the conversation that was being had at the time about European leagues all being askew - PSG were 8 points clear at this stage last year, where now they're in 3rd)

It’s nonsense to make definitive declarations based on hypothetical situations. Could they be 8 points clear? Possibly but unlikely. Could they be ahead? Very possibly. Could they be in a similar or worse position? Also possible.

eigrod

Guardiola should be sent to the stand for that crap.

ERG89

Guardiola has suddenly burst into life with the advertisement board

Gundogan missed a real sitter there